The "not canter"?

I think there's a difference between a green horse running half a circle and an established horse running round the school because it is being rude or the rider is lacking somehow.

If the baby horse is pulled up if it ever runs then it's going to end up a bit confused about whether the instruction was to go, or not IMO.

I'm including reschoolers in the baby horse category since their understanding is about the same (or less, if they know unhelpful things). I don't think it's realistic to expect every horse to always be balanced through and after every transition - sometimes they need to make a leap of faith with the rider, and learn to find their balance through following the rider's instructions. Obviously tip top balance is the aim with all training but at the learning phase there are going to be mistakes and deficiencies, but both horses and riders can learn either from or despite mistakes.
 
I’ve been using a similar thing in walk-trot with a highly respected trainer. I’m yet to pass judgement on it!
 
Sorry MP, I should have been clearer, I agree with you, and I would absolutely include reschoolers into the green horse category.

Thats ok Cortez, I am very happy to agree to disagree on this, many roads lead to Rome. I have allowed running, unbalanced canter transitions at the start for a great many horses, and without exception they have all come through this stage and started making nice balanced transitions pretty quickly. Horses I have started this way have gone on to be Grand Prix dressage horses, and olympic horses in both sj and eventing, so it works for me. But I am very happy to say that just because it works for me, doesnt mean it works for everyone, I appreciate your point of never allowing an unbalanced transition, and I am impressed that you can achieve this, even on just backed horses.
 
Sorry MP, I should have been clearer, I agree with you, and I would absolutely include reschoolers into the green horse category.

Ah, no, I know, I think we're on the same page. It was Cortez's post that prompted my response, I should have quoted it :)
 
In my experience 99% of the problems with canter transitions are down to the rider. Horses are born knowing how to canter, it's up to us to train them properly, and create sufficient balance under the rider to make it easy for them to understand and comply with the aid.

Oh, and the aid for the canter is not swinging the leg back: it is the inside leg that gives the aid (actually the inside seatbone), the outside leg is merely there to control the quarters, if needed.
But how does it matter what aid you give if the horse understands and responds to it? Similar to how you can train them to canter from a voice aid.
 
But how does it matter what aid you give if the horse understands and responds to it? Similar to how you can train them to canter from a voice aid.
Because the aid for the canter directly influences the leg that the horse uses to initiate the pace (inside hind), by the rider over-aiding with the outside leg (which IMO most people do) it A. influences the wrong side of the horse's body, and B. thus unbalances the horse, adding to rushing. Yes, you can use other cues, but the whole art of riding is about directly influencing the horse's body, and you cannot do that by whistling Dixie (I interject that here as I actually once had to retrain a horse that had been trained to canter by....whistling Dixie (this was in America BTW)). I see so many riders chasing their horses into canter, just trotting them so fast they fall into it in an unbalanced heap, with no chance to recover and ultimately making the whole thing a kind of hysterical car crash moment. And using the outside leg too much also causes so many crooked and "swinging" changes, even at the higher levels.
 
Because the aid for the canter directly influences the leg that the horse uses to initiate the pace (inside hind), by the rider over-aiding with the outside leg (which IMO most people do) it A. influences the wrong side of the horse's body, and B. thus unbalances the horse, adding to rushing. Yes, you can use other cues, but the whole art of riding is about directly influencing the horse's body, and you cannot do that by whistling Dixie (I interject that here as I actually once had to retrain a horse that had been trained to canter by....whistling Dixie (this was in America BTW)). I see so many riders chasing their horses into canter, just trotting them so fast they fall into it in an unbalanced heap, with no chance to recover and ultimately making the whole thing a kind of hysterical car crash moment. And using the outside leg too much also causes so many crooked and "swinging" changes, even at the higher levels.
I'd have enjoyed seeing the whistling Dixie canter :D
 
Cortez, I've always had success by getting the canter off my inside leg, I read an article by Carl Hester though that indicated that while this works at lower levels it makes training tempis hard as the the outside leg should be the one triggering the canter.

So now I'm not so sure;I know my way seems to keep horses fairly straight, give me the correct strike off, and works usually on any horse including those who do get quite tense when being asked for canter.

However, I'm not at a level where I need to worry about tempis, and tbh while I can ride changes I've never schooled them. I'm interested to know what you or anyone else working at a higher level find with this
 
Different strokes for different folks innit ?

I have one that learned to canter from the inside leg (not sure why, it just came easier for her) but I had to retrain for the outside leg to get the changes with her, total mental block without that.
 
I've been trying to make an effort with supercob to make it come from my outside leg, for that reason but sometimes I wonder if I'm making it harder for myself - he didn't have an established canter at all so I could pick and choose but he does get tight, and I'm doing something a bit foreign to me - but trying to not get over strong with the outside and push him crooked. I like to keep a quiet aid to canter anyway so it's really just a case of making an effort to ensure I do take the outside leg back
 
Cortez, I've always had success by getting the canter off my inside leg, I read an article by Carl Hester though that indicated that while this works at lower levels it makes training tempis hard as the the outside leg should be the one triggering the canter.

So now I'm not so sure;I know my way seems to keep horses fairly straight, give me the correct strike off, and works usually on any horse including those who do get quite tense when being asked for canter.

However, I'm not at a level where I need to worry about tempis, and tbh while I can ride changes I've never schooled them. I'm interested to know what you or anyone else working at a higher level find with this
I would not describe myself as experienced at this level but I've developed tempis with 3 horses, current one has some 1s now.
I use the leg that will become my inside leg to engage the canter and the other to ask for the change. I can't get my head around how you could do that a different way ? hard enough to learn how to do it in the first place ?

I've found straightness has come and improved from generally making the horse sensitive to light aids and being forward between hand and leg. But like I say I'm just a bumbling amateur ?
 
This is really interesting. In the past I have always tried to make a correct and balanced canter transition with young horses; sometimes that is easy,sometimes not so - I have found it hard going sometimes and seem to end up making a bit of a 'meal' of getting it right. With my current youngster we are just hacking as my schooling field is under water but she is bored of doing nothing. So far she has cantered under saddle 4 times and each time she has made a clear transition without much confusion on either part. Of course I haven't asked for a particular lead at this point - just happy to accept a happy canter transition! :) Food for thought here and somewhat making me wish I had a decent school to use...
 
Maybe because for many years now I've almost exclusively ridden Spanish and Lusitano horses (which are extremely light and sensitive), I generally just use seatbones for tempi changes. Mind you, I don't compete any more so the pressure is off these days* as far as absolute accuracy, etc. is concerned.

*Thankfully!
 
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I teach canter from the outside leg as I am thinking about the higher levels from the start, and I want the aid to be simple from the start, so my aid for canter will (hopefully) one day be my aid for the one tempis. But with all the aids my aim is to make it as light and minimal as possible, I always think is this the least I can do? So I've never really had an issue with straightness, as MP said its more about keeping the horse between hand and leg, and making sure the horse is sensitive to a light aid. I can make the change from my seatbone no problem, and its usually inside seatbone and outside leg for me, but once you get to one tempis you really dont have time to do much, and I want it to be as easy as possible for the horse, with the least clutter from me. So I like to keep everything simple from the start.
 
But with all the aids my aim is to make it as light and minimal as possible, I always think is this the least I can do? So I've never really had an issue with straightness, as MP said its more about keeping the horse between hand and leg, and making sure the horse is sensitive to a light aid. I can make the change from my seatbone no problem, and its usually inside seatbone and outside leg for me, but once you get to one tempis you really dont have time to do much, and I want it to be as easy as possible for the horse, with the least clutter from me. So I like to keep everything simple from the start.
This makes sense, I doubt I will ever have to worry about one tempis but it's good to have secure foundations.
So I've gone from a sit think canter maybe push from the legs to sit think canter outside leg slides back and maybe a push from the legs.
In fairness the article I refer to probably was much better nuanced than my small point but that really stayed with me and I've been taking notice when I've watched high level comp and the outside leg is always clear in the tempis.
 
I was thinking about this again this morning as I prepare to declutter my riding a bit more later on today ;)
At home this winter I've worked really hard on teaching my horse to respond to a more subtle aid to allow me to sit quieter during the tempis and at home, it is working pretty well. My horse is sensitive in unhelpful ways - i constantly have to teach her to hear my aids more than she hears her own instincts.

At our show on the weekend (first since last aug when she got injured) I tried the same quiet approach and my horse missed a change in the 4s. So for the 3s I rode with slightly louder aids and we got them all. Riding for myself it's disappointing but not the end of the world if we get a low score for a movement but I don't reckon I'll be trying to ride tempis from my seatbones at shows any time soon cos I'd really rather use my legs clearly and increase the chance of a clear round :p

Roxy you never know... I didn't think this horse would go above elementary and here we are tinkering about with 1s :)
 
Roxy you never know... I didn't think this horse would go above elementary and here we are tinkering about with 1s :)
Goal for now is Medium ;) then it will be nice horse shame about the jockey after that I think. Our judge on Sunday stuck her head out to tell me how lovely he is and express her regret she couldn't give better marks as we dropped our canter a couple of times. So we shall see how we go.

To not derail the thread entirely I still think the 'not' aid is useful but it is a case of rider intent. It's no good asking not getting and then shrugging and just calling it a not canter. It's just a case of quietly - really quietly putting the aid there - at an absolute whisper and seeing what happens. If you get a canter from it accept what is offered by all means (always accept forwards when offered appropriately), but if you don't you weren't asking anyway.
 
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