The Ozzy Diaries

[Bellaboo18]

Sounds like you're doing a great job. Try to be kind to yourself, given his history it's likely to be one step forward, two back for a bit.
I understand your upset for your other horse, you can talk to your husband whereas you can't chat it through with your horse.
I think you've done the right thing removing the treats, does he need a bucket feed? I may have missed this somewhere. My mare came with food aggression and I just gave adlib hay for the first 6 months till she realised she wasn't going to go without. I can give treats for carrot stretches etc now. The feed may just seem too high value to him at the moment which is causing the aggression.

 

[nutjob]

I’ve seen some people recommend a punch in the mouth as a response to biting but we haven’t resorted to physical punishment. Would be interested to hear people’s views.

One of mine was a vicious biter when he arrived. Not a nip a full on lunge over the stable door and a hard bite. I was lucky I got him in the winter as I had a thick coat on. After the bite he ran to the back of the stable and turned his bum, I assume because he was used to getting a whack. Even if he was fed first and given hay he would lunge if you went past the door with something for another horse. I changed the layout so that I didn't have to go past his stable with food for my other horse and always backed him up when going in. Initially he would clack his teeth together while he reversed but he did back up. I've never fed him treats but I knew he was a biter within a few days of arrival.

At his previous home his diet had been a lot of concentrates and weighed hay. He's a big and fast eater and I guess he'd been hungry a lot of the time and then sharply disciplined for biting but I don't really know.

We certainly haven't punched him in the mouth, we just tried to avoid situations which caused the biting. He was fed plenty of hay so not hungry and we remove all food and tied him up when being groomed or tacked up. I always separate him for feeding and initially put hay in the field before turning him out. I can go in the field now with hay but we're 10 years on! I would say he just grew out of it and gradually got into a routine here where he didn't feel the need.

My other horse was older and was always more dominant which I think helped and I never saw the biter go for him at all. He enjoys the company of other horses but hasn't ever been particularly friendly with people but is now tolerant and respectful.

You're early days with him and still finding out what the issues are. The vet situation sounds grim that you can't just call for an appointment.

Hope your other horse is OK.

 

[94lunagem]

Sounds like you're doing a great job. Try to be kind to yourself, given his history it's likely to be one step forward, two back for a bit.

I agree. I haven’t posted on this thread before but I do pop in and keep up to date. He sounds like a tricky horse and you’re doing your best!

I bought one with a begging problem, so can sympathise with the no treats thing. She no longer waves her front legs for treats (or attention) but a couple of times I’ve relaxed and given her one, and she goes right back to leg wafting square one. So I just have to be militantly strict about it. She can have treats in her feed bucket, but nothing out of hand or over a stable door.

The same one had also just been existing in a big field before I had her, and while she’d been handled and fussed over (she’s a companion, not ridden) she had’t been asked to walk nicely from a to b or through gates in hand for a long time. In the early days, she once came at me with her teeth in an attempt to object to being asked to walk nice and calmly. I was so shocked the first time it happened I didn’t deal with it, and luckily I wasn’t hurt. But the second time I was ready for it and I shouted (read absolutely screamed) at her. She was so totally stunned that it put an end to it and while she still bounces about when being led, the teeth thing has never happened again. It’s the only episode of biting I’ve ever really had to deal with fortunately, but a short very sharp vocal shock worked for us.

 

[Exasperated]

10th August

A 'not very good' update.

Last time I posted that Ozzy had picked up the clicker training very quickly. We had to stop it, though, because he started to bite us. I know that some horses get like this with treats so we just cut out the treats.
The weather here has been awful all week. We had a big storm last Monday but it was gale force winds and rain literally all week, so no riding. On Wednesday there was a short spell when it wasn't too bad so OH went to do some groundwork with Ozzy. It was going fine until Ozzy bit him on the arm. It's quite nasty. I think OH will need to wear tendon boots on the arms in future!
The weather is supposed to improve next week so I was looking forward to getting out and about.

Other than that, all three horses have been OK until today. When we went out to feed them this morning they lined up as usual for their feeds. Aj was standing next to Ozzy, nothing unusual about that. And then suddenly Ozzy turned and clamped his teeth on AJ near his withers. Aj was squealing but Ozzy wouldn't let go. Even when AJ tried to move away, he wouldn't let go.
It's not broken the skin but all the fur is off and it's very swollen. Looks like riding is out of the question for a while.

i always make Ozzy step back before I give him his feed but today he refused to do it. I had to raise my voice and point the whip before he'd take a step back. When OH went to pick up the feed bucket after Ozzy had finished, he put ears flat back and looked like he might bite.

We have no idea what has caused this apparent change in behaviour. Ozzy moves around the field very nicely, no signs of lameness. He isn't stamping his feet so I'm not sure the mite issue is behind this.

It may sound daft, but I was actually crying because he'd hurt little AJ who had honestly done nothing wrong. It wasn't great when Ozzy bit Snoopy but I could understand why because Snoopy tried to take his haynet. Today looked like an unprovoked attack. Looking at them now in the field, Snoopy and AJ are giving Ozzy a very wide berth.

OH is as philosophical as ever - 'sometimes horses behave like this and it's hard to see why. But we'll sort it.'
We've had big issues with some of our horses in the past, but we've never had an aggressive biter.

Before anyone says get the vet out, forget it. It's now over a month since I requested a visit. All three horses need teeth doing (can't get an EDT to travel up here) and Ozzy needs sedation for leg clipping so that his CPL can be treated. But the vet just says they can't come yet. It's incredibly frustrating.

Every person reading this will have had a day when they've felt absolutely rubbish about keeping horses. I'm trying to stay positive but right now it's not easy!

For this, aggression with teeth, you do not need the vet - indeed, you might find it very difficult to persuade vets, farriers, physios, dentists etc to visit at all, if that becomes his reputation - although when vet finally does rock up, could ask about pain investigation anywhere, for peace of mind.
Ozzy is enjoying a lovely time in your home, having had a lot of worrying changes, he’s now well fed, no one is mean to him or insists he does lots of work, or anything he doesn’t really want to do, and he’s feeling on top of his world, including on top of other minions, like your ponies, and potentially you, if not very careful. Well done for stopping the treats.
Have you ever heard of a trainer called Monty Roberts? Plenty of published material, videos, also various ‘disciples’ who could be hired as advisors / behaviourists - but ultimately you and husband will have to get on top of this (because it is dangerous behaviour), and would be entirely capable of doing so. Check out the methodology.
Rig up some sort of ‘round pen’, basically any enclosed small paddock will do, and practise sending Ozzy away from you, until he decides to accept your ability to do so, and wants to join up with you. Mess with him, tack on, off, I’d be handling his legs, too, but any unacceptable displays - and away he is sent again.
Ozzy has to understand that you have the authority, can and will make him run round, but are always ready to receive him when he submits and is polite.
Until you’ve established this, and Ozzy is following you round willingly and respectfully, I think you are right to hold a whip while handling him, swish it fast in front of him if he threatens to lunge at you with his teeth, and don’t be afraid to use it if he persists, sharp, across his chest.
Anyone would be exceptionally lucky to land ‘a punch in the mouth’(!), but if any of mine nipped without provocation; such as dressing a sore wound, maybe over-girthing; I would slap the muzzle end instantly.
Cannot remember when that was last done, mine are all like the sweetheart pony that you used to have, but occasionally stallions get nibbly.
A proper bite - you might need reconstructive surgery, so please stop this, ASAP.
You’ve bought him to have fun, the sooner Ozzy gets focused and riding out with the other one, the happier you’ll all become.

 

[Bellaboo18]

For this, aggression with teeth, you do not need the vet - indeed, you might find it very difficult to persuade vets, farriers, physios, dentists etc to visit at all, if that becomes his reputation - although when vet finally does rock up, could ask about pain investigation anywhere, for peace of mind.
Ozzy is enjoying a lovely time in your home, having had a lot of worrying changes, he’s now well fed, no one is mean to him or insists he does lots of work, or anything he doesn’t really want to do, and he’s feeling on top of his world, including on top of other minions, like your ponies, and potentially you, if not very careful. Well done for stopping the treats.
Have you ever heard of a trainer called Monty Roberts? Plenty of published material, videos, also various ‘disciples’ who could be hired as advisors / behaviourists - but ultimately you and husband will have to get on top of this (because it is dangerous behaviour), and would be entirely capable of doing so. Check out the methodology.
Rig up some sort of ‘round pen’, basically any enclosed small paddock will do, and practise sending Ozzy away from you, until he decides to accept your ability to do so, and wants to join up with you. Mess with him, tack on, off, I’d be handling his legs, too, but any unacceptable displays - and away he is sent again.
Ozzy has to understand that you have the authority, can and will make him run round, but are always ready to receive him when he submits and is polite.
Until you’ve established this, and Ozzy is following you round willingly and respectfully, I think you are right to hold a whip while handling him, swish it fast in front of him if he threatens to lunge at you with his teeth, and don’t be afraid to use it if he persists, sharp, across his chest.
Anyone would be exceptionally lucky to land ‘a punch in the mouth’(!), but if any of mine nipped without provocation; such as dressing a sore wound, maybe over-girthing; I would slap the muzzle end instantly.
Cannot remember when that was last done, mine are all like the sweetheart pony that you used to have, but occasionally stallions get nibbly.
A proper bite - you might need reconstructive surgery, so please stop this, ASAP.
You’ve bought him to have fun, the sooner Ozzy gets focused and riding out with the other one, the happier you’ll all become.

It's been less than 2 months, no time at all to decompress. Overall Ozzy is doing very well but he doesn't know if he's being shipped to the next home next week.
Personally,I'd ignore this advise OP.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

For this, aggression with teeth, you do not need the vet - indeed, you might find it very difficult to persuade vets, farriers, physios, dentists etc to visit at all, if that becomes his reputation - although when vet finally does rock up, could ask about pain investigation anywhere, for peace of mind.
Ozzy is enjoying a lovely time in your home, having had a lot of worrying changes, he’s now well fed, no one is mean to him or insists he does lots of work, or anything he doesn’t really want to do, and he’s feeling on top of his world, including on top of other minions, like your ponies, and potentially you, if not very careful. Well done for stopping the treats.
Have you ever heard of a trainer called Monty Roberts? Plenty of published material, videos, also various ‘disciples’ who could be hired as advisors / behaviourists - but ultimately you and husband will have to get on top of this (because it is dangerous behaviour), and would be entirely capable of doing so. Check out the methodology.
Rig up some sort of ‘round pen’, basically any enclosed small paddock will do, and practise sending Ozzy away from you, until he decides to accept your ability to do so, and wants to join up with you. Mess with him, tack on, off, I’d be handling his legs, too, but any unacceptable displays - and away he is sent again.
Ozzy has to understand that you have the authority, can and will make him run round, but are always ready to receive him when he submits and is polite.
Until you’ve established this, and Ozzy is following you round willingly and respectfully, I think you are right to hold a whip while handling him, swish it fast in front of him if he threatens to lunge at you with his teeth, and don’t be afraid to use it if he persists, sharp, across his chest.
Anyone would be exceptionally lucky to land ‘a punch in the mouth’(!), but if any of mine nipped without provocation; such as dressing a sore wound, maybe over-girthing; I would slap the muzzle end instantly.
Cannot remember when that was last done, mine are all like the sweetheart pony that you used to have, but occasionally stallions get nibbly.
A proper bite - you might need reconstructive surgery, so please stop this, ASAP.
You’ve bought him to have fun, the sooner Ozzy gets focused and riding out with the other one, the happier you’ll all become.

This is archaic nonsense

 

[cauda equina]

Hasn't the whole join up thing been thoroughly debunked?

 

[tristars]

High Nancy

I started on a 6 Yr old who had run wild on his own more less, except for basis handling lunging, the one who handled him recently videod us and started with an announcement, here today videoing 'a former mustang, very dangerous indeed,' it has me in stitches every time I watch it.

Well he did everything you don't want to start, but he is lovely now, he is being educated by another gelding who is pretty soft but formidable when roused.

It was just quiet persistance really, and being totally switched on all the time to avoid injury and confrontation, he went through a biteing stage, but I wanted to do Carrott stretches so carried on, constant correction showing what was and was not acceptable, pushing away, control by head collar, saying no and he has learned, through patience, and vigilance he learned to take the the treat and to understand when the treating came to an end, I would then clip him to the tie up in the yard to let his brain register, process the session had ended, cause when I decide to do something for his benefit I don't stop because , he does not want to, is going to bite, etc, I thought the stretching and ground work were what he needed to learn to help with his ridden work and manners

Ozz sounds like he is a bit overwhelmed by his freedom and different lifestyle and just needs to adjust and learn self control

Same with the legs quiet persistence won mine over

 

[Nancykitt]

Many thanks to everyone who has replied!

Just for info, Ozzy is less protective about bucket feeds than he is about haynets. AJ and Snoopy have a net each on the other gate and Ozzy effectively has his own gate. This works fine - today's spat was unusual, which is why it upset me.
He does need a bucket feed because he has marigold and cleavers for the CPL. Not a huge amount of feed, just some soaked grass pellets, molasses-free chaff and M&C.
I would say he was a little underweight when he arrived and is much rounder now.

When I decided to post the Ozzy Diaries I intended it to be a 'warts and all' account. I've old enough to know that things like this are never a fairy tale. I would have been astonished if there weren't some setbacks and sure enough this is what we have. I know I say this a lot, but I am really blessed that OH has the patience of a saint and never gets things out of proportion. He is saying today that the coming week looks more promising for more groundwork. One thing that Ozzy has in common with our Snoopy (when he was a youngster) is that he is excellent to tack up and very good at the mounting block - like Snoopy, he seems to really enjoy getting out and about. But he clearly needs to learn more respect on the ground!

I have to admit to feeling disappointed that the vet hasn't been yet. I do think a month is a fair amount of time to wait and I'm not sure what to do next. Snoopy and AJ certainly need their teeth done and I'm pretty sure that Ozzy's aren't up to date either. But I really do need to get those feathers off. The vet's receptionist phoned me and offered me a prescription for dectomax to inject ourselves, but we've used it before on a horse with mites and it did nothing. For CPL, they really do need clean legs!

Also, OH reminded me today that there have been 'incidents' in the past with Snoopy (and also my daughter's horse from years ago) that we have conveniently forgotten about because it's all blurred into one nice nostalgic set of memories when actually it was very challenging at the time. The only horse we never had a single issue with was Finn, who was just a dream pony - and that's part of my problem, I'm still trying to get over losing him 6 years ago and I know he was one of a kind.

Hasn't the whole join up thing been thoroughly debunked?

I'm not sure about this, but I did go to a Monty Roberts demo once that obviously didn't go the way it was supposed to... one horse was brought in because it apparently wouldn't load (it was actually stabled at the venue), he did the join-up and stuff and told his assistant to do some 'schooling' with the horse (which was basically going backwards and forwards in a dually halter). The horse still wouldn't load and they moved on to another case study. By the end of the evening the horse that wouldn't load was even more resistant than ever - a few of us remarked that it probably wasn't a good day at the office for Mr Roberts!

 

[splashgirl45]

I’ve just caught up with the Ozzy story as he was still with Jasmine last time I looked . What a good outcome for him and hopefully you can sort out the problems once your vet has been. Well done for taking him on and also a well done to Jasmine for not sending him back to the dealer, which many people would have done . he progresses to be a well behaved horse in the future

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I bought a rising 4 yr old mare who had been kept very short of food, then bought back by the breeder and fed up again, then sold to me. She was very proud of all her food; hay and bucket feeds. She arrived with us in March and was kept stabled overnight with approx 12 hours daily turnout. We were very fortunately at livery in a set up with a walk-way behind the loose-boxes, separated from the horses by a 'mesh wall' above the mangers/hay boxes. This meant that we could stand safely behind the mesh wall while she ate her hay and threatened us.
She got used to nothing at all happening to either her hay or to her, so grew out of her threatening behaviour, to the extent that eventually in a stable where there was no way of being separated from her, except by the door, she would bring hay to us to show us/share.
At first we made sure that her hay and bucket feed were waiting in the stable for her when she was brought in and she was left alone to eat in peace.
In summer we often fed her and her herd, from a bucket, over a wall.
Tbf, she was always at the bottom of the pecking order, even when we had a Section A pony, so not tempted to fight with the other horses.

 

[Jasmine2023]

I’ve just caught up with the Ozzy story as he was still with Jasmine last time I looked . What a good outcome for him and hopefully you can sort out the problems once your vet has been. Well done for taking him on and also a well done to Jasmine for not sending him back to the dealer, which many people would have done . he progresses to be a well behaved horse in the future

Thank you allthough I do feel bad for what is happening especially the biting

 

[Nancykitt]

Thank you allthough I do feel bad for what is happening especially the biting

Jasmine, you should definitely not feel bad about anything! We knew that Ozzy had some issues, you were very, very upfront about it all!
I offered to take him, you didn't hound me, you didn't pressurise me. We all know that he can be a bit of a handful at times but nothing that can't be sorted.
This afternoon, Ozzy was trying to persuade Snoopy to engage in a bit of mutual grooming...Snoopy was having none of it!

Slightly better news - we put the haybell in the field just now for the first time. Ozzie and AJ were terrified of it. We couldn't get Snoopy away from it, and that was before we put the bale in it!

Once the bale was in, they approached it and were delighted to find that it contained hay. No nasty behaviour at all. They each found a 'window' and grazed peacefully.

Then it was time for bucket feeds. Ozzy was on his best behaviour while waiting. Backed up when told and was a lot better mannered. They are all back at the haybell now and looking very happy.

I'm hoping that having open access to forage will help Ozzy.

 

[Nancykitt]

I am seriously impressed with the haybell. It was a lot of money but it will save us a heck of a lot of bother with nets!

 

[Rumtytum]

Brilliant result- and great to see them all tucking in happily together.
You have lovely views Nancy!

 

[planete]

Jasmine, you should definitely not feel bad about anything! We knew that Ozzy had some issues, you were very, very upfront about it all!
I offered to take him, you didn't hound me, you didn't pressurise me. We all know that he can be a bit of a handful at times but nothing that can't be sorted.
This afternoon, Ozzy was trying to persuade Snoopy to engage in a bit of mutual grooming...Snoopy was having none of it!

Slightly better news - we put the haybell in the field just now for the first time. Ozzie and AJ were terrified of it. We couldn't get Snoopy away from it, and that was before we put the bale in it!

Once the bale was in, they approached it and were delighted to find that it contained hay. No nasty behaviour at all. They each found a 'window' and grazed peacefully.

Then it was time for bucket feeds. Ozzy was on his best behaviour while waiting. Backed up when told and was a lot better mannered. They are all back at the haybell now and looking very happy.

I'm hoping that having open access to forage will help Ozzy.

I think you are doing really well with Ozzy. The pony I have now was a biter for the first couple of years I had him, even drawing blood a couple of times. Telling him off made him worse. An instructor whose help I had enlisted hit him hard across the muzzle for trying to nip and from a nasty nipper he then turned into a serious biter. I concluded he could not handle stress very well and just tried to keep myself safe, ignoring the behaviour as much as possible. As he settled and became more relaxed the aggression disappeared completely. He can now have treats though only low value ones and only for responses to very specific situations. His attitude to frustration of any kind nowadays is quite mild but he expects me to read him and reassure him that whatever is stressing him is harmless and worth putting up with. It has taken five years but his loyalty and good behaviour are now well established. I doubt he would have become so trusting and relaxed if we had met his aggression with agression. A sharp shout in an emergency to stop him in his tracks did happen occasionally but nothing physical. Your OH sounds absolutely brilliant, I am sure Ozzy is going to learn he is safe and can relax soon.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Thank you allthough I do feel bad for what is happening especially the biting

It's NOT your fault and it's not Nancykitt faults either, it's just an insecure anxious boy who's been passed about far too much acting defensively precisely because he's worried. Cobs are amazing but sensitive souls and you should be proud of yourself for doing what's right for you and the animal, and definitely don't beat yourself up about it all; it's not you that let this horse down. NK is doing a great job with him, getting any new horse - let alone one like Ozzy - is never a straight upwards trajectory of improvement. Sometimes there's wobbles. It happens.

 

[Jasmine2023]

Jasmine, you should definitely not feel bad about anything! We knew that Ozzy had some issues, you were very, very upfront about it all!
I offered to take him, you didn't hound me, you didn't pressurise me. We all know that he can be a bit of a handful at times but nothing that can't be sorted.
This afternoon, Ozzy was trying to persuade Snoopy to engage in a bit of mutual grooming...Snoopy was having none of it!

Slightly better news - we put the haybell in the field just now for the first time. Ozzie and AJ were terrified of it. We couldn't get Snoopy away from it, and that was before we put the bale in it!

Once the bale was in, they approached it and were delighted to find that it contained hay. No nasty behaviour at all. They each found a 'window' and grazed peacefully.

Then it was time for bucket feeds. Ozzy was on his best behaviour while waiting. Backed up when told and was a lot better mannered. They are all back at the haybell now and looking very happy.

I'm hoping that having open access to forage will help Ozzy.

I like to think I am a decent person so it will make me feel bad even if you knew of his behaviour. Had he bitten when he was with me you may have thought twice about taking him. I don't think I would agree with punching him in the mouth either. I am no expert with horses but I would imagine violence like that only begets the same back. Loud voices or a sudden loud noise always tend to work better with animals or just a specific tone of voice. It works on my dogs anyway .

 

[Peglo]

View attachment 164709

I am seriously impressed with the haybell. It was a lot of money but it will save us a heck of a lot of bother with nets!

Better get it strapped down before the next bout of wind. The one at work took off last week but fortunately didn’t leave the yard

The wind last week was horrible and tiring. My big horse has been particularly grumpy with the other horses as she just hates the gales and rain. She seemed less angry today with the wind finally going down.
Hopefully it is the same for Ozzie and he’s struggled a bit with the weather. Would he appreciate a massage to loosen off his muscles a bit if he’s been bracing against the weather?

 

[Boulty]

I will admit that for the incident that left bruises and the incident with friends horse (she held them both whilst I opened a gate on foot and he launched at the other horse with teeth, which obviously is not ok when there’s a human stood there) he did get a slap on the neck and growled at.

For general day to day attempts to treat me like a chew toy (mainly when leading out on walks inhand) I found having a bit of distance between us so I was a less tempting target / harder to reach helped a lot. At one point I used to carry a schooling whip the wrong way around with it pointed roughly at his shoulder. If he tried to crowd me I’d give him a prod with the end of it. Extra rigidity of it being the handle he was trying to lean into seemed to work better than tapping him with the “correct” end and he seemed to understand it better. (Think this was a unique to him thing though… would not expect this to be the answer with literally any other horse) I also used to longline more than I led out pre-backing as less opportunities to practice the behaviour!

I don’t think mine was generally trying to be aggressive when he did it, it just took him a long time to understand that this wasn’t appropriate behaviour. (I mean he still 100% believes the quad will move out of the way if he tries to shove past it through a narrow gap despite several experiences where this has led to him getting stuck and having to back out again so not the quickest learner and only worsening soundness / mobility has stopped him bodily shoving horses out of his way because he can’t be arsed taking 2 steps around them… he also used to happily climb OVER like literally OVER laid down / sleeping horses if they were between him & the quickest path to something he wanted) Sometimes it seemed to be a reaction to me asking him for “more” ie to walk on a bit / to trot, sometimes it seemed to come out when he was feeling a bit insecure about something and sometimes it seemed related to excitement.

I’m sure you’ll get there in the end and at some point he’ll run out of new things to throw at you. (At that point mine sadly started throwing health issues at me instead but I understand the normal path is to have some worry free enjoyment?)

 

[Nancykitt]

I will admit that for the incident that left bruises and the incident with friends horse (she held them both whilst I opened a gate on foot and he launched at the other horse with teeth, which obviously is not ok when there’s a human stood there) he did get a slap on the neck and growled at.

I'm going to be honest and say that if it was me - and it was a surprise - I would probably have done an 'automatic' single slap reaction without even thinking about it.
OH's reaction left Ozzy in no doubt that biting is not acceptable. We'll see how he is during his next groundwork session.


This morning the three of them look as if they've been to an all-night party. The novelty of the haybell will wear off eventually I'm sure but it's almost as if they're scared to leave it in case it magically disappears. Ozzy in particular is a very pleasant character this morning!

 

[dorsetladette]

I've just read through the whole thread to catch up.

Do you think he could be a Rig or just 'a bit riggy'.

My Reggie is considered 'riggy' by people who handle him as he is nippy and bold and sometime bargy if he's given the opportunity (and he's in the right frame of mind). I've had discussion with my vet (I will be getting a different opinion, but that another story) who has suggested a couple of different supplements. I've started him on Golden herbs rigcalm to see it it makes a difference. But I think when their jabs are due in september/october I'll get a blood test done just to check.

 

[AutumnDays]

A bit off topic, but do you remove the netting from the bale before/after/at all when using the hay bell? It looks like something I should be thinking of investing in after the amount of hay that I lost to the wind for my three last year!

 

[Tarragon]

This morning the three of them look as if they've been to an all-night party. The novelty of the haybell will wear off eventually I'm sure but it's almost as if they're scared to leave it in case it magically disappears. Ozzy in particular is a very pleasant character this morning!

This paragraph made me smile! I do think that managing feed so that it is always available is key to some horses.

 

[Fransurrey]

With regards to clicker training, whilst food is the most often used primary reinforcer, you might find that with Ozzy that scratches work just as well, especially as he's such an itchy boy. Get thee a good back scratcher or a shedding blade works well, and use that to reward him, on his most favoured scratchy spot (withers, shoulder, NOT rump unless you enjoy a horse arse in your face!).

With regards to the lapse in behaviour, consider 'spontaneous recovery'. Very common in rehabbing and training. Those habits have had up to 8 years to form, so you can expect the occasional 'regression' after 'extinction' of the behaviour (biting). The triggers for some of those behaviours won't ever go away (close proximity of another horse at feed time in this case), but he's being taught how to deal with those scenarios or that it's not necessary to react. Spontaneous recovery behaviours normally become less and less frequent, but the possibility is always there, especially in new environments and I wouldn't read too much into his biting, particularly in these early stages. You're doing grand!

 

[Flowerofthefen]

At work so a quick reply! I had a biter, not a nipper, full on bite. He was an ex racer. I eventually got someone out to help with the ground work and i mentioned his biting. We were working him in hand in the school when he lunged at trainer. Trainer wacked him hard round the muzzle in that split second. We then left him to think about what he had dome for a few seconds, made friends again by rubbing his head and carried on as normal. He never bit again.

 

[smolmaus]

At work so a quick reply! I had a biter, not a nipper, full on bite. He was an ex racer. I eventually got someone out to help with the ground work and i mentioned his biting. We were working him in hand in the school when he lunged at trainer. Trainer wacked him hard round the muzzle in that split second. We then left him to think about what he had dome for a few seconds, made friends again by rubbing his head and carried on as normal. He never bit again.

This is taking a risk though. Another horse might just try harder next time to really get you Biting is communication, it's extremely loud communication so if a horse gets to that point there will have been signs previously that they are unhappy that have been ignored, just like a dog that bites. I don't know many people these days that would deal with a biting dog by punching it in the mouth.

The only dangerous biting horse I know personally was a starvation case. There is one at the yard with a reputation, found to have very painful encysted worm burden. If Ozzy has deep seated food insecurity that is also a valid reason for that communication. For R+ the gold standard is never to train a hungry horse, have alternative free access forage available and not to use high value treats if the horse finds them over arousing. I have to watch for this myself, my mum did her usual "stuff the pony full of apples" when she came to visit last week and my mare has been difficult since My fault because I let her do it, can't blame the horse! Wish mums were as trainable as horses.

I suspect for Ozzy the work with his legs was stressful, even if he made progress, and the relatively new introduction of treats has just blown his brain a bit. The communication is just "too much too fast". Sounds like you have the right idea Nancy, just reassess, change tack a little bit and keep going. You just have more info to work with now!

 

[Exasperated]

At work so a quick reply! I had a biter, not a nipper, full on bite. He was an ex racer. I eventually got someone out to help with the ground work and i mentioned his biting. We were working him in hand in the school when he lunged at trainer. Trainer wacked him hard round the muzzle in that split second. We then left him to think about what he had dome for a few seconds, made friends again by rubbing his head and carried on as normal. He never bit again.

Now, I wonder why that might be?

 

[Flowerofthefen]

This is taking a risk though. Another horse might just try harder next time to really get you Biting is communication, it's extremely loud communication so if a horse gets to that point there will have been signs previously that they are unhappy that have been ignored, just like a dog that bites. I don't know many people these days that would deal with a biting dog by punching it in the mouth.

The only dangerous biting horse I know personally was a starvation case. There is one at the yard with a reputation, found to have very painful encysted worm burden. If Ozzy has deep seated food insecurity that is also a valid reason for that communication. For R+ the gold standard is never to train a hungry horse, have alternative free access forage available and not to use high value treats if the horse finds them over arousing. I have to watch for this myself, my mum did her usual "stuff the pony full of apples" when she came to visit last week and my mare has been difficult since My fault because I let her do it, can't blame the horse! Wish mums were as trainable as horses.

I suspect for Ozzy the work with his legs was stressful, even if he made progress, and the relatively new introduction of treats has just blown his brain a bit. The communication is just "too much too fast". Sounds like you have the right idea Nancy, just reassess, change tack a little bit and keep going. You just have more info to work with now!

Not sure where you read the word punching, certainly not in my reply. The horse was dangerous with his biting. This one action stopped him. .might not work for everyone and most might not agree with how it was dealt with. He never bit again and was lovely boy. It worked for us.

 

[nutjob]

At work so a quick reply! I had a biter, not a nipper, full on bite. He was an ex racer. I eventually got someone out to help with the ground work and i mentioned his biting. We were working him in hand in the school when he lunged at trainer. Trainer wacked him hard round the muzzle in that split second. We then left him to think about what he had dome for a few seconds, made friends again by rubbing his head and carried on as normal. He never bit again.

This horse has been on a yard with a bad reputation. One of the staff looks identical to someone with a 10 year ban for horse abuse so it's highly likely his behaviour has been caused by previous ill treatment. It's also possible that he's in some level of discomfort either from legs or other issues but OP is having issues getting a vet to visit.

My biter has also stopped biting without the need to be hit in the face so it is possible.