LadyGascoyne
Still Fig-uring it out...
If I was in remote South Africa and had something skin condition related I would probably use tea tree oil and manuka honey. But this is a completely non-expert opinion.
The Ozzy Diaries
- Thread starter Nancykitt
- Start date
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
I just click my tongue - it works fine, it's always there when you need it and you've still got both hands free!
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
I thought about this, but OH has been using a 'click' sound as part of groundwork for a cue meaning 'move on'. I've tried making various other sounds but not sure anything would work!
I suppose the advantage of the clicker (I think it was £3 for 2 of them) is that it will make a consistent sound regardless of which one of us is using it.
Will be attempting the leg washing on Wednesday. Watch this space!
stangs
Well-Known Member
Putting my rambling nerd hat on…
Clicking at a horse (to get them to move on, for example) is normally an alveolar or alveolar lateral click. If you want to make a separate click sound with your mouth, you can do a palatoalveolar click (so the top of your tongue is further towards the back of your mouth), which sounds more like a ‘clock’/‘cluck’ sound. My boy distinguishes between the two clicks with no issues.
Benefit of marker words is you can tailor them to a situation a bit more, make them softer/more excited/etc, so it’s easier to make them a ‘reward’ in themselves whereas a click is always a click and should always be followed up by an eternal reward. But I prefer clicker work for handling stuff where the animal already has a negative history, since it makes it easier to be more clinical and precise.
Strictly speaking, you don’t want a secondary reinforcer (like a clicker or marker word) with counter conditioning which is partially what you’re doing. But then you just get into the semantics of am I trying to counter condition (initially meaning leg touch predicts treat) or am I trying to train a behaviour (keep legs still when I touch them), and that’s a whole ‘nother rabbit hole to go down.
What I will say though is, if you’re going down the clicker route, make sure you have a few clicker sessions with him before you introduce the leg washing. You want to figure out the logistics of what you’ll be doing (are you treating by hand or throwing into a bowl; what reinforcer will you use - what works best for him); introduce the basics to him (e.g. that a click means a reward is coming, that he doesn’t come into your space when being rewarded, maybe he looks away); and get to grips with your own mechanics and timing (e.g. do you like having a clicker or would you rather have that hand free and use a whistle or sound from your mouth) way before you introduce potentially major stressor of leg washing.
Clicking at a horse (to get them to move on, for example) is normally an alveolar or alveolar lateral click. If you want to make a separate click sound with your mouth, you can do a palatoalveolar click (so the top of your tongue is further towards the back of your mouth), which sounds more like a ‘clock’/‘cluck’ sound. My boy distinguishes between the two clicks with no issues.
Benefit of marker words is you can tailor them to a situation a bit more, make them softer/more excited/etc, so it’s easier to make them a ‘reward’ in themselves whereas a click is always a click and should always be followed up by an eternal reward. But I prefer clicker work for handling stuff where the animal already has a negative history, since it makes it easier to be more clinical and precise.
Strictly speaking, you don’t want a secondary reinforcer (like a clicker or marker word) with counter conditioning which is partially what you’re doing. But then you just get into the semantics of am I trying to counter condition (initially meaning leg touch predicts treat) or am I trying to train a behaviour (keep legs still when I touch them), and that’s a whole ‘nother rabbit hole to go down.
What I will say though is, if you’re going down the clicker route, make sure you have a few clicker sessions with him before you introduce the leg washing. You want to figure out the logistics of what you’ll be doing (are you treating by hand or throwing into a bowl; what reinforcer will you use - what works best for him); introduce the basics to him (e.g. that a click means a reward is coming, that he doesn’t come into your space when being rewarded, maybe he looks away); and get to grips with your own mechanics and timing (e.g. do you like having a clicker or would you rather have that hand free and use a whistle or sound from your mouth) way before you introduce potentially major stressor of leg washing.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I haven't read all the posts, only yours about the clipping. I had this problem with one of mine. He was a total old woman about clipping, took several years to even get to a chaser clip. Couldn't use vet sedation as he needs a twitch to get into the vein and I save that for "special" occasions. Then he got cushings and got a VERY long coat and even longer curly hair on his legs which got matted etc with sweat. Even on prascend he couldn't shed so it all had to come off, even his legs to his total horror.
I used the livery harmony plus which were very quiet. There was no way I could clip his legs in anything like the normal way, elbows down were forbidden territory. So I stood him loose (in a headcollar) in the yard. Nothing for him to fight against. Clipped an area he was happy with for a couple of sessions to get going with it.
Then clipped downwards rather than upwards against the hair. Did each leg each session, about 3 sessions a day. Success was one short clip down from elbow to knee. If we only managed 2 inches that was fine. Aim was 2 downwards stokes a leg be it an inch or 6 inches whatever we could manage. Tell him how good he was and moved onto the next leg. We gradually got further down, probably due to boring him to death. When I got to the knee I didn't do much in case that upset him just another run down below it to get the really hairy bit, maybe only a couple of inches. Just carried on and was basically "hacking" the long fur off. After a couple of weeks of this I could clip upwards and make it look "nice" and he was a normal horse.
Just a couple of runs down a leg for only a couple of inches removed any chance of a battle. It was done so quickly and it just became a "habit' like picking feet out.
Clipping downwards is a lot safer for you and you can get away more quickly than with scissors.
I had to get the rest of his very long cushings coat off like between his hind legs, near the sheath etc. I did all of that with the harmony clippers. Before I had clipped with normal lister battery clippers but the harmony were brilliant for a difficult horse.
I used the livery harmony plus which were very quiet. There was no way I could clip his legs in anything like the normal way, elbows down were forbidden territory. So I stood him loose (in a headcollar) in the yard. Nothing for him to fight against. Clipped an area he was happy with for a couple of sessions to get going with it.
Then clipped downwards rather than upwards against the hair. Did each leg each session, about 3 sessions a day. Success was one short clip down from elbow to knee. If we only managed 2 inches that was fine. Aim was 2 downwards stokes a leg be it an inch or 6 inches whatever we could manage. Tell him how good he was and moved onto the next leg. We gradually got further down, probably due to boring him to death. When I got to the knee I didn't do much in case that upset him just another run down below it to get the really hairy bit, maybe only a couple of inches. Just carried on and was basically "hacking" the long fur off. After a couple of weeks of this I could clip upwards and make it look "nice" and he was a normal horse.
Just a couple of runs down a leg for only a couple of inches removed any chance of a battle. It was done so quickly and it just became a "habit' like picking feet out.
Clipping downwards is a lot safer for you and you can get away more quickly than with scissors.
I had to get the rest of his very long cushings coat off like between his hind legs, near the sheath etc. I did all of that with the harmony clippers. Before I had clipped with normal lister battery clippers but the harmony were brilliant for a difficult horse.
OrangeAndLemon
Afraid of exorcism
My advice on the CPL is it can wait a couple of weeks if you haven't felt any skin folds. Clipping the legs to get a good view of the current state would be an advantage to long term management but spend the time to the vet visit just working on his trust and confidence.
From what you've described there's nothing acute that needs dealing with in the next few hours / days. I imagine it is playing on your mind and you want to do your best for him but I think the priority is making him feel safe and secure. You've being doing so well on that, I'd focus on building on that success.
I wonder if there are any shampoos or washes that might help in the interim?
From what you've described there's nothing acute that needs dealing with in the next few hours / days. I imagine it is playing on your mind and you want to do your best for him but I think the priority is making him feel safe and secure. You've being doing so well on that, I'd focus on building on that success.
I wonder if there are any shampoos or washes that might help in the interim?
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I do like neem. It's insecticidal and doesn't sting on wounds. Downside of course being the smell and turning the legs green.
teapot
Well-Known Member
If he’d wear them, have you considered some cotton wool and a pair of ears to muffle the sound a bit?
Obvs not if you’re trying to clicker train as that won’t work
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
Sadly he does have folds - two on each of the front legs at either side of the pastern. The lumps on the hinds seem smaller.
We'll do what we can while we are waiting for the vet...we've started him on marigold and cleavers today and he does have 24/7 turnout so is free to move around. Until we can take a closer look, there's only so much we can do.
Indy
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure I've got a solo comb. If I can find it I can send it to you
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
You could make up a slosh containing benzyl benzoate and neem oil? If he's ok with having his legs sponged, that is. My mare is very water phobic and she tolerates that quite well. I hold the sponge against her leg and as it dribbles, move it downwards to spread it/work it in. I make up my own solution with ingredients all purchasable on t'interweb:
75g emulsifying wax
200 mL 100 % Benzyl benzoate
200 mL neem oil
Heat up the emulsifying wax, either by low/med power microwave in short bursts or in a bowl on the hob. Add to this the BB, followed by some hot (not boiling) water, 200 mL or so. Keep stirring and add in the neem oil, before topping up to about 800 mL. Pour into a bottle and rock to mix, then top up to 1 L. As it cools, it will form a thick lotion - keep rocking, to keep it mixed. I've made this up in a tub, too, for grabbing handfuls to apply as a lotion.
For washes, I add a handful of the lotion to about 1L of warm water to apply directly to skin. It's nothing short of miraculous for my mare's skin condition and is watered down enough that she's not an oil slick. You could, once mixed, use a hair dye applicator to get it to the skin, if he's not ok with the sponge.
Good luck with him. I do remember the thread and I'm so happy that he's landed on his feet.
75g emulsifying wax
200 mL 100 % Benzyl benzoate
200 mL neem oil
Heat up the emulsifying wax, either by low/med power microwave in short bursts or in a bowl on the hob. Add to this the BB, followed by some hot (not boiling) water, 200 mL or so. Keep stirring and add in the neem oil, before topping up to about 800 mL. Pour into a bottle and rock to mix, then top up to 1 L. As it cools, it will form a thick lotion - keep rocking, to keep it mixed. I've made this up in a tub, too, for grabbing handfuls to apply as a lotion.
For washes, I add a handful of the lotion to about 1L of warm water to apply directly to skin. It's nothing short of miraculous for my mare's skin condition and is watered down enough that she's not an oil slick. You could, once mixed, use a hair dye applicator to get it to the skin, if he's not ok with the sponge.
Good luck with him. I do remember the thread and I'm so happy that he's landed on his feet.
motherof2beasts!
Well-Known Member
Please be super careful on making potions without checking cpl site, neem oil isn’t ideal. Certraben is very good but washing can cause more harm than good, especially as you can’t see what’s lurking under there. X
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
Also neem doesn't suit all horses; one of mine came out in the most awful welts from a neem-containing fly spray
motherof2beasts!
Well-Known Member
How’s he doing ? X
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
All is well with Ozzy! He has been with us for just over a month now and is more settled by the day.
Still waiting for the vet to come out, but I have to say that Ozzy hasn't been doing a lot of foot stamping recently. He is on marigold and cleavers now.
I was hoping to update on the riding very soon - unfortunately I am recovering from a (non-riding related) pulled muscle in the left side of my back so we've not been able to get out as much as we'd like. But Ozzy does really well with his groundwork!
Still waiting for the vet to come out, but I have to say that Ozzy hasn't been doing a lot of foot stamping recently. He is on marigold and cleavers now.
I was hoping to update on the riding very soon - unfortunately I am recovering from a (non-riding related) pulled muscle in the left side of my back so we've not been able to get out as much as we'd like. But Ozzy does really well with his groundwork!
Rumtytum
Have Marmite, will travel
Great update! Really pleased the boy is getting increasingly settled and not stamping so much, but sorry about your back - pulled muscles really are a pain 
motherof2beasts!
Well-Known Member
Ah sorry to hear about your back , ouch!
Hopefully he knows he’s now home and can start to enjoy life
Jasmine2023
Well-Known Member
He sounds to be settling well. You were definitely the better home for him. Sorry about your back.
moosea
Well-Known Member
Sounds like he is doing well. Would love to see some more pics of him in the future.
moosea
Well-Known Member
Jasmine, I think you would have been able to cope with Ozzy.... with the right support.
I also think you should remember that you bought from a dodgy dealer and managed to pick a good horse!
Jasmine2023
Well-Known Member
Maybe but at the time I felt out of my depth.
misst
Well-Known Member
Jasmine you can rest easy you have done right by this boy. It may well have turned out differently with the right support, but it wasn't available so you did the next best thing for both of you.
You can move on, hopefully to a new equine friend when you're ready, with better mental health and a whole lot of useful experience x
You can move on, hopefully to a new equine friend when you're ready, with better mental health and a whole lot of useful experience x
Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
At the time without the right support you were out of your depth and didn't have the experience to be able to cope with a stressed unsettled cob. I suspect a lot of people would have been in the same boat, pretty sure I would have been and I have many more years of experience under my belt.
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
Absolutely! We acquired a very bargy and bad mannered cob 22 years ago. We still have him and he's taught us a lot.
However, some of Ozzy's initial behaviour was quite frightening to me, especially the kicking out (related to food aggression) and the pulling away/running off. I understood that he was unsettled and had spent a lot of time being transported but I was still worried about getting hurt. OH has endless patience and maintained a calm, consistent approach, especially in the groundwork. I don't mind admitting that he is far, far more patient than me - and he seemed to 'click' really well with Ozzy from the start (which is good considering that he had very little say in the whole thing and had never actually met Ozzy before he turned up at the croft gate!)
The food aggression has improved over the last month but he is still ultra-protective about his haynets - surprisingly, more than he is about bucket feeds. Snoopy and AJ seem to understand and are happy to leave him to it. There will be a reason for this behaviour and it takes time for them to become less anxious about food supply.
We have just got a haybell - now waiting for the round bales to make an appearance in this part of the country!
Overall, though, I couldn't have done this on my own without the expertise of my OH. And his expertise came from years of dealing with a bargy ill-mannered cob (who eventually became a smashing hunter!)
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I think that you did 100% the right thing in passing him onto a more experienced handler. I reckon there’s a fair chance that you would have got badly injured if he kicked or steamrollered you. IIRC I suggested at the time that you pass him on as you just can’t teach confidence and timing to an understandably nervous handler. It’s either in you to sort it or it isn’t.
An unsettled cob acting bolshy can be very challenging and dangerous indeed if you get sideswiped by him. NK has been upfront in detailing the challenges he presented when he arrived in tanking off, kicking etc.
A younger me might have taken him on, but not now.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
I don't think Jasmine should be made to feel guilty for feeling out of her depth, especially when struggling with her mental health which probably would have amplified everything feeling too much
Horses are big animals and if things go wrong people get hurt, I was round them since I was 4 until I gave up 3 years ago, and some of Ozzies behaviour would have scared me. My own horse was incredibly polite im not used to dealing with those who's behaviour needs addressing especially when kicking out is involved
Let's also not forget Jasmine's yard didn't seem especially helpful so she didn't even have someone on the ground to support her, nor was she allowed to accept the offers of help from people on here due to YOs policies
Id say Ozzie didn't fully fit the description the dealer put up. Didn't Jasmine say she wasn't the youngest so again, potentially more vulnerable in not being able to move out the way as quickly.
Horses are big animals and if things go wrong people get hurt, I was round them since I was 4 until I gave up 3 years ago, and some of Ozzies behaviour would have scared me. My own horse was incredibly polite im not used to dealing with those who's behaviour needs addressing especially when kicking out is involved
Let's also not forget Jasmine's yard didn't seem especially helpful so she didn't even have someone on the ground to support her, nor was she allowed to accept the offers of help from people on here due to YOs policies
Id say Ozzie didn't fully fit the description the dealer put up. Didn't Jasmine say she wasn't the youngest so again, potentially more vulnerable in not being able to move out the way as quickly.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
And some things are a hell of a lot easier to work on when you’ve got 2 experienced people not just one
Jasmine2023
Well-Known Member
Thank you. I will admit he did scare me on several occasions. I didn't take it personally but yes he made me wary of being around him this made it hard to even attempt to bond with him never mind work with him by myself.
You are correct I am not young I will be 63 next month lol and I have arthritis so not quick on my feet. I started out learning to ride at 60 maybe a bit old to start out but you don't always get more sensible as you get older
. It was a case of if I don't start now I never will. I am just happy that Ozzy has his happy ending. I applaud Nancykitts husband for being so patient with Ozzy and brave getting on him lol.
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
The support system makes such a difference. Being at a supportive yard, or having someone confident to help and get stuck in is necessary. I wouldn't cope with my youngsters without my yard manager being willing to get stuck in.
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
At the beginning of last week Ozzy bit Snoopy low on the shoulder because Snoopy had dared to go too close to Ozzy's suppertime haynet. It didn't break the skin but looked nasty and did swell up.
I don't like it when Ozzy does things like this - as I've said, I know there's a reason, but I just don't like it, especially as Snoopy is such an old man now.
Today Snoopy looked like he'd recovered so we decided to take him out for a short solo stroll and a graze. Snoopy is very happy to hack alone, OH rode him out and I rode him back. Ozzy was left in the field with AJ and I thought they'd be fine.
Well, poor Ozzy was heartbroken that Snoopy had gone out. We can't have been out for more than 35 minutes but when we turned towards the gate Ozzy went absolutely bananas, calling like crazy and doing the most beautiful canter up the field. 'Snoopy, my best mate, where have you been, you've been gone AGES...'
I reminded Ozzy that he'd been nasty to Snoopy last week and he just looked at me. He then let out a big sigh of relief.
Horses are just weird at times..!
I don't like it when Ozzy does things like this - as I've said, I know there's a reason, but I just don't like it, especially as Snoopy is such an old man now.
Today Snoopy looked like he'd recovered so we decided to take him out for a short solo stroll and a graze. Snoopy is very happy to hack alone, OH rode him out and I rode him back. Ozzy was left in the field with AJ and I thought they'd be fine.
Well, poor Ozzy was heartbroken that Snoopy had gone out. We can't have been out for more than 35 minutes but when we turned towards the gate Ozzy went absolutely bananas, calling like crazy and doing the most beautiful canter up the field. 'Snoopy, my best mate, where have you been, you've been gone AGES...'
I reminded Ozzy that he'd been nasty to Snoopy last week and he just looked at me. He then let out a big sigh of relief.
Horses are just weird at times..!