The PTS society

I know that a rich person would be far more likely to put a horse down than run it on and waste £££s on vet bills.
 
Shilasdair said:
Actually, I do think I have the moral high ground compared to those who view horses as disposable utensils.
You have the right to PTS any horse that you own that you don't maybe like much, or you can't sell on in the current market. Even one that is a bit stiffer when ridden than it used to be, or whose colour you've never particularly liked.
It's not a welfare issue, but to me it's a moral/ethical issue, and I have the right to think less of you for your choices.
S :D
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Read it again Shils, and remember that it was printed directly under a quote from me. There is no way that this could be read except as you accusing me of having a horse put to sleep for being the wrong colour, and of using my horses as disposable utensils. If you were not addressing me personally, then you would have written "people have the right ....." but you didn't, you said "you" and in that context "you" could only have meant me. Of course if you do not understand that this is what you wrote, it would go part way to explaining how you manage to write so many posts that seem to be offensive to other people :)
 
AshTay said:
I agree that depriving an actual horse of a life it never knew it was going to have isn't an evil thing.

But to me it's definitely worse to deprive an actual horse of a life grazing peacefully in a field than it is to deprive a theoretical horse of the possibility of a life it doesn't know. Is every ovulation cycle of a mare a wasted opportunity of a life if she's not sucessfully covered???

(and why do you assume a retired horse is waiting to die - I could suggest that your ridden horses are less happy than my unridden field ornament....).
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sorry to go off topic but i now have monty pythons every sperm is sacred in my head:p
 
Good grief people! Maybe we could discuss the ethcs of paying out thousands of pounds to keep crippled animals as 'field ornaments' while millions of people are starving to death?
 
cptrayes said:
Will you buy another when he's gone? If not, OK. But if you will get another, and you do not have your elderly fellow put down tomorrow, then somewhere in a market a perfectly sound horse will go for meat, who would not have gone for meat if you bought a horse to replace yours.

If goes like this:

My horse can't do anything but light hacking any more so I have him put down and buy a Grand Prix baby prospect from someone who can't manage his sharp temperament.

The person who sold me the one with the sharp temperament that they could not manage buys an ISH that someone else finds too strong.

The person who had the too strong ISH buys a gentler ISH from someone who thinks the horse is capable of much more than they are.

The person with the talented ISH goes to the market and pays £500 for a lovely traditional cob in poor condition who was heading for the meat market, loves it and turns it into a super horse who wins local showing competitions.

This last horse is only alive because I had mine put down.

You see??
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It's amazing how people can structure their thinking to justify anything really. I have a field ornament. I only wanted one horse, but to put her to sleep was not an option for me. I bought another horse to ride and have not been on holiday for seven years as well as making other 'sacrifices'. But she's worth it. I love her. So no horses were condemmed to death by her retirement. Do you have your dogs PTS too once they start to look a bit old and doddery? You could save a pup if you do that and encourage more to be bred to boot.
 
jsr said:
Livery. :D

Oh sorry to write more than one word but just going to yard now to feed my horse with the money I would have used to buy my shoes or feed my child if I could afford to have one so I'm not ignoring your replies but having no internet at home I won't be online again.
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Then oneday, I will be sure to throw you a quid when I see you sat in a doorway. I, on the otherhand, prefer to have a roof over my head, food on the table, and the family fed.

We shall have to agree to disagree then, you put your animals first, and I'll think of the humans.

....as for the horse, I still stand by original statement, if he cannot settle AGAIN then rather than see him passed on and on and on....PTS at the home he loves might be his last option.

That is all.
 
I think this whole ' il get by and my horse will be fine no matter what happens' is very naive as an attitude. Fair enough your horse comes first by if redundancy or illness etc meant you actually couldn't feed that horse or get a vet to it then there's a lot worse than pts. Were would your dogs live if you pat livery and not mortgage? It's all easy when you have friends and family to fall back on for both money and places to put animals. But not everyone has that and a pts animal is not a neglected one and never will be.
 
DragonSlayer said:
You really are a strange one, aren't you?

You put me on ignore because you know i'm right.
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I think your logic is wrong there. I put people on ignore who I really don't care what they think but they irritate the hell out of me, to stop me wasting my time responding to them. I only have one person on ignore at the moment though.
 
widget said:
I think this whole ' il get by and my horse will be fine no matter what happens' is very naive as an attitude. Fair enough your horse comes first by if redundancy or illness etc meant you actually couldn't feed that horse or get a vet to it then there's a lot worse than pts. Were would your dogs live if you pat livery and not mortgage? It's all easy when you have friends and family to fall back on for both money and places to put animals. But not everyone has that and a pts animal is not a neglected one and never will be.
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Be careful, you might get called a tit!

:D
 
hollyandivy123 said:
sorry to go off topic but i now have monty pythons every sperm is sacred in my head:p
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That made me snort my tea because that's what I was thinking when I wrote that but couldn't bring myself to type it. lol.

hollyandivy123 said:
Originally Posted by mle22
Good grief people! Maybe we could discuss the ethcs of paying out thousands of pounds to keep crippled animals as 'field ornaments' while millions of people are starving to death?
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Hmm. The thousands of pounds I spend keeping my crippled horse as a field ornament wouldn't even make a scratch on world poverty. But the work that i do earning that money does contribute to the health of humankind so can I please be given the ethical stamp of approval!!

If you're going to start that line of argument there's a way to go before you get down the list to hobby horse owners...
 
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Spudlet said:
I would sooner see a horse PTS that passed on and on and on in a downward spiral, because I have seen the bottom of that spiral and it ain't pretty. I've no wish to see horses shot. But I would rather that than see some of the other stuff I've seen - and still see, some nights when I'm asleep.

Horses are kept safe from harm because they have financial value, and sentimental value. Sadly, an unrideable horse with ongoing health or behavioural problems has little financial value, and unless it's your horse, that you love, it has little sentimental value either, at least not to anyone else. So what keeps those horses safe when they're given away? You are really shoving them out there into the cold. When you take on an animal, you take on the responsibility to keep it safe and protect it from harm, to the best of your ability, for the rest of its life. That means you feed it, and water it, and care for it, and make it well when it's sick, and if you can't do that any more you find it a good and trusted home, and if you can't do that, you face the fact that actually, death is not the worst fate that animal can suffer. And you cry your tears and you live with the guilt, because that is the deal. That's the bargain. They give us everything, and they ask for so little in return - but part of our half of the bargain is a peaceful ending, without fear or pain.

And I'm sorry if people don't like it. I'm sorry if people think I'm a horse killing psycho. But I will carry on saying what I do, because I believe it to be right.
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That is about the best view I have read on this subject and apart from not having the balls to go with the first statement, I see the principle behind it. The rest is my view entirely, too.
 
Wagtail said:
I think your logic is wrong there. I put people on ignore who I really don't care what they think but they irritate the hell out of me, to stop me wasting my time responding to them. I only have one person on ignore at the moment though.
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My logic is fine, but you can think it's wrong it you want, it's not against the law.... the poster was not answering my questions, so that makes me think that the poster cannot answer them. But finally I got an answer, so all is well.

:D
 
Good grief, this has turned into something almost as good as the great turnout debate!:eek:

Out of interest, how does the field ornament argument work (I'm using the term loosely of course) for horses that were never intended to be ridden? As I always thought I'd want a horse primarily to be ridden, but since helping with my friend's youngster, I've found that to be just as much fun as riding, despite the fact I won't be getting on board myself, and I can now see the attraction of having the odd pet pony as well as just riding horses?

Hell, I might even teach them tricks while I'm at it:p

Also wondering if I should kill my dog now to save a puppy... or something:confused: Come'ere dog, it's for the Greater Good!;)
 
Wagtail said:
It's amazing how people can structure their thinking to justify anything really. I have a field ornament. I only wanted one horse, but to put her to sleep was not an option for me. I bought another horse to ride and have not been on holiday for seven years as well as making other 'sacrifices'. But she's worth it. I love her. So no horses were condemmed to death by her retirement. Do you have your dogs PTS too once they start to look a bit old and doddery? You could save a pup if you do that and encourage more to be bred to boot.
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Wagtail you bought another horse to ride and it is perfectly clear from what I wrote that the example therefore DOES NOT APPLY TO YOUR SITUATION.

Well done you for keeping your horse alive. I am sure that she is happier than the ones that I have watched five of my friends keep alive long past when it was obvious to someone who was not emotionally attached to them that they were in constant pain.

Personally I would rather know the horse was in no possibility of me mistaking whether or not they were in pain, and leaving things a day too late, but that's my choice.
 
cptrayes said:
Read it again Shils, and remember that it was printed directly under a quote from me. There is no way that this could be read except as you accusing me of having a horse put to sleep for being the wrong colour, and of using my horses as disposable utensils. If you were not addressing me personally, then you would have written "people have the right ....." but you didn't, you said "you" and in that context "you" could only have meant me. Of course if you do not understand that this is what you wrote, it would go part way to explaining how you manage to write so many posts that seem to be offensive to other people :)
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I am not going to trade personal insults with you, no matter what.
I will just point out that I have yet to receive a permanent or even temporary ban in over 18000 posts since 2006.
S :D
 
cptrayes said:
Shils if you will write stupid things like suggesting that I (you did use the word "you", a personal pronoun) would have a horse put down because it was the wrong colour, then I think being called offensive and stupid is the least you could expect, no?
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Having a horse put down because you cannot ride it to the level you would like (as stated in your post) is as bad in my opinion as putting it to sleep for being the wrong colour, so I don't see why you take offence.
 
Wagtail said:
Having a horse put down because you cannot ride it to the level you would like (as stated in your post) is as bad in my opinion as putting it to sleep for being the wrong colour, so I don't see why you take offence.
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I don't think she will get this point.
I am interested that she didn't mind the other hypothetical reasons - not liking the horse, it becoming a bit stiffer. Perhaps those are acceptable?
S :D
 
Wagtail said:
Having a horse put down because you cannot ride it to the level you would like (as stated in your post) is as bad in my opinion as putting it to sleep for being the wrong colour, so I don't see why you take offence.
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I think if you read my posts you would find that I have already said that would only have a horse put down if it was not possible to find it a good home.

You think that's the same as putting a horse down because it is the wrong colour. How very odd.
 
mle22 said:
Good grief people! Maybe we could discuss the ethcs of paying out thousands of pounds to keep crippled animals as 'field ornaments' while millions of people are starving to death?
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Completely irrelevant. This is a horse forum, not a foreign aid forum.
 
Shilasdair said:
I don't think she will get this point.
I am interested that she didn't mind the other hypothetical reasons - not liking the horse, it becoming a bit stiffer. Perhaps those are acceptable?
S :D
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I picked the most unreasonable bit to keep my post succinct Shils. I note that you have never been banned in 18,000 posts but I have also noted that it is not unkown for threads in which you participate strongly to be withdrawn altogether due to the amount of acrimony the threads start to generate :)
 
cptrayes said:
I picked the most unreasonable to keep my post succinct Shils. I note that you have never been banned n 18,000 posts but I have also noted that it is not unkown for threads in which you participate strongly to be withdrawn altogether due to the amount of acrimony the threads start to generate :)
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Really?
Name one thread that I posted that has been withdrawn?
Or are you saying I am responsible for anyone who posts on my threads, who lacks the control to avoid personal insults? Surely such people ought rather to take responsibility for what they say/do?
S :D
 
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Spudlet said:
I would sooner see a horse PTS that passed on and on and on in a downward spiral, because I have seen the bottom of that spiral and it ain't pretty. I've no wish to see horses shot. But I would rather that than see some of the other stuff I've seen - and still see, some nights when I'm asleep.

Horses are kept safe from harm because they have financial value, and sentimental value. Sadly, an unrideable horse with ongoing health or behavioural problems has little financial value, and unless it's your horse, that you love, it has little sentimental value either, at least not to anyone else. So what keeps those horses safe when they're given away? You are really shoving them out there into the cold. When you take on an animal, you take on the responsibility to keep it safe and protect it from harm, to the best of your ability, for the rest of its life. That means you feed it, and water it, and care for it, and make it well when it's sick, and if you can't do that any more you find it a good and trusted home, and if you can't do that, you face the fact that actually, death is not the worst fate that animal can suffer. And you cry your tears and you live with the guilt, because that is the deal. That's the bargain. They give us everything, and they ask for so little in return - but part of our half of the bargain is a peaceful ending, without fear or pain.

And I'm sorry if people don't like it. I'm sorry if people think I'm a horse killing psycho. But I will carry on saying what I do, because I believe it to be right.
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For me this hits the nail on the head, couldn't put it better myself. Right on !
 
Shilasdair said:
Really?
Name one thread that I posted that has been withdrawn?
Or are you saying I am responsible for anyone who posts on my threads, who lacks the control to avoid personal insults? Surely such people ought rather to take responsibility for what they say/do?
S :D
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Why do you assume that I only mean threads that you started? Have PM'd you to remind you of one of mine that you participated strongly in that got withdrawn totally. Let's take the rest of this argument offline and stop boring people shall we :) ?
 
Cptrayes - do not send me any more PMs, thank you.

I don't think you can hold me responsible for HHO members' inability to exercise self control in their posts/threads.

I certainly don't hold you responsible for my actions.

S :D
 
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cptrayes said:
Wagtail you bought another horse to ride and it is perfectly clear from what I wrote that the example therefore DOES NOT APPLY TO YOUR SITUATION.

Well done you for keeping your horse alive. I am sure that she is happier than the ones that I have watched five of my friends keep alive long past when it was obvious to someone who was not emotionally attached to them that they were in constant pain.

Personally I would rather know the horse was in no possibility of me mistaking whether or not they were in pain, and leaving things a day too late, but that's my choice.
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If you are unable to tell whether a horse is in constant pain, then maybe you don't understand horses? Much as it would sadden me, I would have my mare PTS in an instant if I thought she was suffering in any way. In fact the day she did her injury, I stayed up with her all night and had made the decision to PTS if she was still the same in the morning. Thankfully she was much brighter so she got the chance to live. She has the odd set back and I know that her life is a shortened one because there will come a day when she doesn't bounce back. But for now, she's as happy as I've ever seen her and causing all sorts of trouble with her cheeky antics. If I had not been able to afford another horse then yes, I would have still retired her, but your thinking on saving another horse is flawed because I would NEVER put her to sleep just so I had a horse to ride. I don't value a horse that can be ridden over a horse that cannot. Why should my horse die if she's happy, to save a horse I don't even know?
 
Wagtail said:
If you are unable to tell whether a horse is in constant pain, then maybe you don't understand horses? Much as it would sadden me, I would have my mare PTS in an instant if I thought she was suffering in any way. In fact the day she did her injury, I stayed up with her all night and had made the decision to PTS if she was still the same in the morning. Thankfully she was much brighter so she got the chance to live. She has te odd set back and I know that her life is a shortened one because there will come a day when she doesn't bounce back. But for now, she's as happy as I've ever seen her and causin all sorts of trouble with her cheeky antics. If I had not been able to afford another horse then yes, I would have still retired her, but your thinking on saving another horse is flawed because I would NEVER put her to sleep just so I had a horse to ride. I don't value a horse that can be ridden over a horse that cannot. Why should my horse die if she's happy, to save a horse I don't even know?
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I agree. If one is unable to tell when a horse is in constant pain then one should not keep them. I can, but I see people EVERYWHERE who can't. Personally, I would rather have a horse of mine put to sleep years early than make an honest mistake in the emotion of knowing and loving a horse too well, which must always be a risk with a horse one has owned for a long time.

I'm not remotely interested in whether you personally choose to keep your horse alive Wagtail, as long as she is not in pain. Do what you want, and let me do the same, will you?
 
cptrayes said:
I think if you read my posts you would find that I have already said that would only have a horse put down if it was not possible to find it a good home.

You think that's the same as putting a horse down because it is the wrong colour. How very odd.
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At the end of the day, you are putting it down because you cannot ride it to the level you want. If you can't get rid to someone else, you PTS right? If the horse is healthy and happy and it's only crime is that it can't do what you want to the level you want then that is no different in my eyes to a prson who shows paints killing solid coloured foals.
 
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