BeansNsausages
Well-Known Member
Can you imagine if you were in charge of our justice system?
You would have your hands cut off for pinching a Refresher Bar.
The sacked horse hitting ex teacher is going to court
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Can you imagine if you were in charge of our justice system?
You would have your hands cut off for pinching a Refresher Bar.
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
This prosecution has nothing to do with animal welfare and everything to do with politics.
Does anyone remember the Arab horses case, where they killed so many while ignoring offers of help with rehoming from the AHS and even the protestations of the man who actually shot them?
I think that was the final straw for me.
Does anyone remember the Arab horses case, where they killed so many while ignoring offers of help with rehoming from the AHS and even the protestations of the man who actually shot them?
I think that was the final straw for me.
Matafleur
Well-Known Member
You'll be happy if she kills herself as a result of all this then will you? She'll deserve that too presumably?
Honestly, I never comment on this forum anymore but there really are a lot of holier than thou people on here. The woman has lost her job over this, among other things, and she and her family have been harrassed. Do her kids deserve that too? I would say she has paid enough now, her life is pretty ruined and I can't begin to imagine the toll on her mental health. I am pretty anti hunting but you'd be very naive not to see that this is the RSPCA capitalising on a situation to try and make themselves look good.
This was not a pleasant incident to see, the pony did not deserve it and she shouldn't have done it. Maybe she did deserve to be dismissed from her job and volunteer positions but this was not extreme and sustained cruelty that warrants a costly, private prosecution using charitable donations. There are far better things the RSPCA could be spending their money on.
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windand rain
Well-Known Member
Sublime to rediculous comes to mind in some of these responses. I would also include the grossly overweight and ridden lame horses that need more help than that pony. You see it everywhere. Laminitis is epidemic but still ponies in particular look like house ends the notion of ad lib forage and standing at big bales is just as cruel as the odd swipe. She was wrong no doubt but so are those piling on with blatantly silly punishments. "She/He who is without sin may cast the first stone" compassion for others should also extend to our fellow humans education education education.
laura_nash
Well-Known Member
I still have no idea what point you are trying to make here. She attacked the pony for no reason, or no reason related to the pony anyway. It has nothing to do with causing unavoidable stress to deliver routine treatment. Have you actually watched the video? No one made it "look bad", it was bad.
That kind of unprovoked violence makes you more at risk of injury from a horse going forwards than handling and training it properly would so the stuff about the size and danger of the horse etc is also totally irrelevant. Of course a horse can hurt you more than you can hurt it, doesn't make it okay for you to hurt it (unless it's absolutely necessary for self preservation, which clearly wasn't the case here and is usually due to human error in training or planning).
I don't think they are trying to seize it and as for seizing it on the day, I'm sorry but what?
Neither of your last two posts make any sense to me in the context of this thread.
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
I don’t understand the need for comparison with starving horses or horses with laminitis or horses being smacked at competitions. All of us know those things are unacceptable. It is not helpful or relevant to this situation. The fact is, in this particular case, the behaviour of the woman in the video has been deemed to be unacceptable to her employer and the pony club and they have ended their associations with her as a consequence of her behaviour.
Do I think she should have had her employment terminated? Yes if the disciplinary process was correctly followed
Do I think her children are in danger and should be removed from her care? No
Do I think she should be threatened and vilified? No
Do I think she should be officially warned about her treatment of animals? Yes
Call it punishment, call it education; People need to realise that behaviour like that is not acceptable and has consequences, regardless of hypothetical mitigating factors about how the person may have been feeling at the time which may have influenced their behaviour.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
The reason for the comparison, is that this horse is unlikely to have any lasting harm as a result of the incident, whereas obese, laminitic horses do suffer tremendous harm. The rspca are seeing fit to prosecute this woman, but do nothing about ongoing cruelty to horses.
windand rain
Well-Known Member
No one has condoned her actions at all but she has been tried hung drawn and quartered by a biased social media court. Punishment for her crimes should follow a trial in a court of law the rest is in my view very damaging to the law of the land. If she is guilty to the extent of a caution or criminal record then she would and always will be unable to be cleared by the dbs. So no the vitriol is not justified as she has not been found guilty by the cbs prosecution
laura_nash
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's acceptable for her or her kids to be harassed. Unfortunately there are always nutters who take things too far when a mob gets whipped up. The social media hysteria that is prevalent these days is a mystery to me and not a good thing.
As regards the prosecution, I don't think the RSPCA have ever claimed to be neutral or non-political. They took out full page anti-hunting adverts at huge expense after all. Sure there are better things (in my opinion) they could spend their money on, but it is their money after all. They aren't tax payer funded. I suspect most people who donate are aware of the political and anti hunting side and support it. Certainly a lot of people in the horse world are aware of how often they are useless with equine issues. I haven't donated to them for many, many years.
You could argue, and it's a good argument, that a lot of their role should be done by the police. But then the police haven't time or funds to do their most fundamental stuff at the moment so that wouldn't go well. Blame the government for that.
In the end it will be decided in court if she is guilty. I don't think the argument that loads of other people are doing the same or worse and getting away with it makes it wrong to prosecute per se. After all given rape prosecution figures in the UK you could make that argument for not doing anything about rape too.
As I said before it's unfair she is being made an example of in this way, but life is unfair. She gave the anti hunt campaigners exact the kind of ammunition that they were looking for, it's not really surprising they are making as much use of it as they can.
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Yeah I get that, but unfortunately for this woman what she has done has been filmed so it’s handed to the RSPCA on a silver platter. There is no disputing that she committed the offence. Owning a fat horse is not against the law. Punching and kicking a horse is. It’s more about intent I think. What did she intend by punching and kicking the pony? What did someone intend by letting their horse get fat (not necessarily on purpose)?
laura_nash
Well-Known Member
Isn't the whole point of this thread that she is being taken to court and people think that is wrong? So actually those people are arguing FOR the court of opinion and AGAINST that of the court of law. They just think the court of opinion came down on the wrong side.
Rightly or wrongly (and I think wrongly) in the UK bringing animal abuse to court has been done by the RSPCA for years now. That they are taking her to court doesn't automatically mean she will be found guilty. Maybe she will be found innocent and vindicated (though I find that unlikely given the video evidence).
AmyMay
Situation normal
Yep.
windand rain
Well-Known Member
Ah but is punching and kicking a horse an offence in law and if so why are the CPS not pursuing it. The RSPCA will bring a private prosecution at great expense as they have no more right than you to do so except they have the charity money to pay for it. It is time in my view that the RSPCA got back to doing what they were chartered to do to protect animals from harm by education and rescue if needed they are not there to prosecute but to protect which they rarely do unless they find soft targets. As a charity they should be banned from using the charities money to bring spurious private prosecutions and collate information to present to the CPS who will then either throw it out or progress it
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
I think the RSPCA has always prosecuted for deliberate acts of violence against animals?
SO1
Well-Known Member
What she did was wrong, but when it comes down to it many horses are hit and kicked every day as part of normal riding in order to get them to do things or to stop them doing things. There is quite a lot of agressive riding and handling out there, competition seems to bring out the worst behaviour in a lot of people.
We all agree what she did was unacceptable but how does that feed into for example using a whip or a lot of leg to encourage a horse to jump or go forward from the leg or some of the training methods used in dressage by some people.
The RSPCA are going to a bit variable as it depends on the local branch and I don't think they are always very brave, understandable in some cases as people who are aggressive towards animals are often aggressive towards people.
If the RSPCA do nothing they are effectively saying to the millions of people who saw that video that it is ok to kick and punch animals like that. It is not just about horses but other companion animals. If it is ok to do that to a horse then it is ok to that to a dog or cat?
We all agree what she did was unacceptable but how does that feed into for example using a whip or a lot of leg to encourage a horse to jump or go forward from the leg or some of the training methods used in dressage by some people.
The RSPCA are going to a bit variable as it depends on the local branch and I don't think they are always very brave, understandable in some cases as people who are aggressive towards animals are often aggressive towards people.
If the RSPCA do nothing they are effectively saying to the millions of people who saw that video that it is ok to kick and punch animals like that. It is not just about horses but other companion animals. If it is ok to do that to a horse then it is ok to that to a dog or cat?
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Rarely and inconsistently. They seem to go for private prosecution only with situations that are already high profile.
Kaylum
Well-Known Member
If you are put in prison/charged with an offence by private prosecution you don't get a criminal record. Or at least you didn't use to. Won't show up on a dbs check. Maybe it's changed. This was a few years ago now.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Oh its personal allright. You just like to argue. And the little clique that follow you are evident by your 'likes'. I've not said anything that is incorrect nor what many others have said. Due process was followed by her employers and other agencies. She was suspended which is the norm following allegations of this nature. Then she was sacked. Now she's going to Court.
You still haven't answered my questions to you which makes me even more certain of your intentions towards me.
You don't give a damn about this woman, you are just using your 'concern' as a way to undermine my comments, the facts have already shown your theory "how do you know she didn't hand in her notice?" to be wrong. Not that you would admit this.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
People are arguing against it because there seems to be little value in it from an ongoing animal welfare pov and because it won't be just quietly prosecuted as per a CPS prosecution, it will and already is being treated as a publicity activity. The woman has already been through the mill as a result of her actions and people can keep going and going at her, with the RSPCA providing a new way to ensure it stays in the news, until there is little left of her life. But at some point you've got to (one has to) question whether you are (one is) making the world a better place for animals or just making yourself (oneself) feel better because the wicked witch has been effectively identified and destroyed.
I should probably add that if truth be known I don't really care, she's just one person who I have no connection to. But I also don't think those who are continuing in their campaign against her are doing so for any animal welfare reason.
laura_nash
Well-Known Member
Also, there was a good thread on here before about the social contract we have for riding horses, ie whether most people think it is an ok thing to do, and how that is strained by high profile things like the Olympic pentathlon and the recent racing scandals. Like it or not this is now high profile. If she is not prosecuted, especially since she has not made any public apology and lots of people are defending her on the basis what she did was fine (not on here) then that is saying to non-horsey people that this is normal behaviour in horse ownership and riding. That type of thing is playing right into PETA's hands.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
The RSPCA prosecuting won't make any difference to that perception. If people have that view of those that ride horses then they will just think that it is the RSPCA who stopped us in this case. They won't think the rest of us are alright because the RSPCA prosecuted this one woman.
If we really wanted to make a difference we should be campaigning for change in the way that the sporting aspects of equestrianism are governed for a start, then reporting every abusive incident witnessed to the police and RSPCA, and then when they (inevitably) don't do anything, funding private prosecutions ourselves.
Pretending that this woman is the beginning and the end of the problem and by clapping on the RSPCA prosecuting her we can undo the ills of the horse world is just silly imo.
Gallop_Away
Well-Known Member
I think people have very short memories. I've said this before but I can't help but remember what happened to Caroline Flack.
People make mistakes. She has been punished enough. Leave it be now.
People make mistakes. She has been punished enough. Leave it be now.
laura_nash
Well-Known Member
I didn't suggest anything of the sort, and I absolutely agree that ideally people would be encouraged to report everything of that kind they see and ideally another body would take on private prosecutions for them if the police and RSPCA won't.
scats
Well-Known Member
Was musing about this thread this morning and although I think what she did was absolutely disgraceful, how many of us think nothing of giving a horse a firm tap with a whip because it won’t go forwards/is ignoring our leg etc.
Though hitting a horse in the face out of temper is horrid behaviour, is smacking a horse with a whip because it wont do what you want not pretty horrid also, in reality? Yet we accept that riders do this, day in and out, across the world.
This doesn’t excuse her behaviour, but it does throw in just what rocky ground we are on as riders, who, on a daily basis, do abuse the good nature of the horse for our own personal gain.
Though hitting a horse in the face out of temper is horrid behaviour, is smacking a horse with a whip because it wont do what you want not pretty horrid also, in reality? Yet we accept that riders do this, day in and out, across the world.
This doesn’t excuse her behaviour, but it does throw in just what rocky ground we are on as riders, who, on a daily basis, do abuse the good nature of the horse for our own personal gain.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
While I am no fan of the Rspca and think that they do waste a lot of money and do not investigate a whole lot of stuff that they should do, I think its right this woman should go to court.
Yes, we have probably all seen behaviour like this at shows over the years. This does not mean its right. That pony did absolutely nothing to deserve the treatment he got. The woman simply took her temper out on him. If she can not control herself in public I really fear what goes on in private.
That people normalise that kind of treatment to animals is really upsetting. All animals deserve our respect. Its time people realised its just not Ok to casually abuse animals like this. Yes the woman has already lost her job, but would you want someone with a temper like that looking after your kids?
If you saw someone on the street hitting and kicking a dog, would you feel differently?
The post above raises a good point. I do ride but do not often carry a whip and do not remember the last time I used one. Times are changing and hopefully for the better.
Yes, we have probably all seen behaviour like this at shows over the years. This does not mean its right. That pony did absolutely nothing to deserve the treatment he got. The woman simply took her temper out on him. If she can not control herself in public I really fear what goes on in private.
That people normalise that kind of treatment to animals is really upsetting. All animals deserve our respect. Its time people realised its just not Ok to casually abuse animals like this. Yes the woman has already lost her job, but would you want someone with a temper like that looking after your kids?
If you saw someone on the street hitting and kicking a dog, would you feel differently?
The post above raises a good point. I do ride but do not often carry a whip and do not remember the last time I used one. Times are changing and hopefully for the better.
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BeansNsausages
Well-Known Member
I suppose the difference is that this horse will have had no understanding as to why he was getting a smack.
But I agree with you, who of us has not ridden a nappy horse who we have given a sharp crack with a whip? The pain from a ridden 'pony club kick' would be far harder than the kick that this lady managed to do from the ground.
TPO
Well-Known Member
And isn't that a very sad indication of the horse world?
At the end of the day she did something wrong and prosecutable (new word?).
I hope the extreme lengths taken for "justice" are a wake up call for every other person that hits, abuses, whips, kicks, etc their horse. Quite a few have tried to justify her behaviour and I find that almost as sickening as her attack on the horse
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I agree with this one hundred per cent. That people think that this is normal behaviour in the horse world is very very sad and upsetting and if people think it Ok to treat horses like this its time people took a good long hard look at the way we use and abuse horses.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Bit of a cop out though no? There is actually stuff that we could all do to raise standards in equestrianism, but often don't. Cultural norms and standards are created by us all.
rextherobber
Well-Known Member
The woman's level of anger/violence escalated rapidly when there was absolutely no retaliation from the horse. She began with a slap, and proceeded to kick and, ( I also do not want to watch the video again) speaking from memory, the last few blows are not far off a punch...There was no reaction from the horse ( other than looking resigned to it all) I would not want my child to be exposed to someone who behaves with this utter lack of control, who escalates violence with no provocation. I would assume the RSPCA investigation has revealed circumstances other than this one filmed instance, otherwise I would agree it would seem unusual for a case like this to go to court, judging by reported dog cruelty cases. But again, this is pure conjecture...
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