The second opinion

Polos Mum said:
Lame horse that you can't keep................ - only one option really - fingers cross is something managable.
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Yeah I guess I know :(
Thing is, being 100% honest, I could keep him but truthfully I dont want to. That sounds awful doesn't it :( But my life is complicated (made more so by my own stupity most of the time I admit) and Im desperate to make things easier on myself. I genuinely did not know I could love a horse so much til I got Jester, my youngster...I just want to be good enough for him and do him justice. Better do do one properly than a couple in a half ar*esd way. Xx
 
I do think there is quite a lot of overreaction here imo.

OP, I bought a horse 10 years ago (he was rising 10 and had BE evented for 3 seasons up to Novice).

He came up lame on the small circle on concrete (about 3/10th lame). I thought that was the end of it and wouldn't buy him.
Looked for another few weeks and couldn't fine anything to match him so decided as i wanted him for eventing and not trotting 5m circles on concrete, I would buy him.

I paid over £4k for this horse with a failed vetting... he went on to do another 9 seasons eventing (with lots of rosettes!) without a lame day and retired from eventing sound :)

OP, if it was my horse I'd get some shoes on (my boy improved a lot on the small circle with improved foot balance) and go from there.
 
Millitiger, I like your reply. I was just thinking the same thing.
My horse is a teeny bit unlevel trotting a 5m circle, so I don't.
Can't say either of us miss it.
 
The thing is millitiger you were prepared to take a risk (and an expensive one at that). However a lot of people aren't.

We vet to ensure the best possible chance of buying a healthy animal - but I accept that even then there's no guarantees. And your experience just shows that some risks are worth taking. But for most of us perhaps they're not.

The op's horse could absolutely and probably continue to have a happy ridden career - but an issue has been thrown up that deserves further investigation. It's only then, armed with all the facts, that the op can make a decision on how to proceed.
 
I'm just offering a different perspective (I hope).

I really don't think unlevel on a tight circle is the biggest deal in the world but then we don't know if he is 3/10th lame or 7/10th lame. Also, OP has said he doesn't do much apart from the occasional toddle down the road so it's highly likely he is also stiff and unused to working to the degree you need to on a 5m circle.
I think the fact he is barefoot (and hasn't been for very long) is probably a factor that needs looking at before going down other routes.

I actually don't vet anything now, after the experience of the horse above.
I've bought 10+ horses since then and the only issue was one was a fruitloop but a vetting wouldn't have picked it up!

I just wanted to offer the OP a bit more hope than to say the horse is unsellable, needs lots of investigative work ups or, later in the thread, talking about PTS!

I actually think the first thing to do is wait for the lady who had the horse vetted to come back to the OP with her decision before the OP does anything.
 
Different perspectives are so important - and it's always good to have them.

My own experience of slightly lame on a circle is pretty much coloured by my own experience - as it transpired that my four month purchase had the start of coffin joint disease (at 8). So I'm immediately suspicious of anything lame (however slight) on a circle now. He was dead two years later.

I absolutely agree that shoeing may well resolve the issue with this horse. But I guess that's for the vet and farrier to work out between themselves.

At the end of the day, lame is lame.

I said shoot it kind of tongue in cheek. But the reality is if you cant sell it, can't or won't keep it then what options are there? Unless the horse is kept at home it costs as much to keep a lame horse on livery as a sound one - and that's not cheep.
 
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I think a full lameness work up is a good idea, as at least you'll both know what your dealing with, I had a horse fail the vet on a flextion which was caused by the way an old injury had healed, luckily for me the vet then did a full lameness work up and scanned the old injury at the vetting for the buyer, and as they knew what they were dealing with deciced to take a gamble, but I had also reduced the price a fair bit due to the fail vetting. If the vet hadn't done a full work up there and then the buyers would have walked, but the vet adviced a full work up first as he didn't think to issue was a big deal
 
Of course there is 1/10th old injury fully healed but causing strange action will never cause a problem, all the way through to 1/10th degenarative disease will be hopping in months
Given OP has resources at hand (through insurance) to find out exactly which end of a very broad spectrum the horse is, seems the most sensible next step before worrying about what to do next.
 
amymay said:
I can't think that you've been stupid. Presumably he passed a vetting when you bought him and it's only now that a problem has manifested itself.

I wonder if shoeing him would resolve the issue.
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I wondered about the shoes too if shoeing resolves the issue ( and I know some say that's papering over the cracks ) then if he's for low level work it's worth a punt if he suits the job and is very cheap.
Op you are doing exactly the the right thing with the work up .
It needs to done with an experianced vet who does works all the time to get the value out of it.
CF ( who sadly was the victim of my bad day a fortnight ago ) had a slightly deviated foreleg he was not sound BF but carefully shod he worked hard with no problems , all is not lost .
whatever this is may re resolvable or manageable ,try to chill ,only get worked over things you can influence and you have nothing to influence until the work ups done.
However he's not going to insurable with another owner perhaps you loan with a view to buy and keep him on your insurance until it comes for renewal to get anything that's needed done before he gets bought.

The fact he never looked lame day to day is exactly why this test is part of the vetting it really is a cheap and simple way of flagging up issues .
 
just to make you feel a little better, i bought my horse 12 years ago and she was 2/10 lame on a tight circle on a hard surface, so failed the vetting...everything else including flexion tests were fine. as she was under £2000 i took a chance as i wanted a happy hacker and i had fallenfor her. i actually did quite a bit of dressage and fun rides as well and she was completely sound , she is now 22 and just a happy hacker but is not happy on very hard ground , i dont feel i made a mistake all those years ago, so your horse may well be fine for your buyer especially if you are going to loan him..
 
I think that we're all agreeing that many horses who show up lame on a tight circle on the hard can actually carry on and have useful working lives. However, it can also often be the first sign of a serious and deteriorating problem.

Getting the work up is the right thing. OP could faff around all winter with shoes on shoes off etc but the work up should home in on the problem pdq. If the vet is able to pin point the problem early on in the work up it won't cost many £££s either. Then everyone will know what they are dealing with and take it from there.
 
I have messaged my farrier about getting some front shoes on and will be speaking to my vet on Monday...I guess there is little else I can do at this point. I have been so wound up over the whole thing that I now just need to chill out and take it as it comes. I would much prefer to sell him than loan so thats what Im aiming for at the moment. I have been very honest with the buyer and have also given her the link to this thread so she can make some informed choices :)
 
I'd get the vet out to have a look first, rather than getting a set of shoes on first. It could be something as simple as the hoof being unbalanced.
 
Don't put shoes on until the work up is done. If something is found your farrier and vet will need to work together to achieve the best outcome.
 
OP, to be clear about what's going on leave her as she is without shoes, arrange to take her into the vets surgery and get them to do proper investigations to determine what is causing the lameness. As I understand it your vet saw her at your yard trot up and on a circle - agreed she was lame but couldn't tell you why, then suggested shoes might fix it.
I think we are staying you nead more investigations, paid for by the insurance company, to find out exactly what the cause of the lameness it - it may well still turn out that shoes are the answer/ help but you don't know until you've done the test.

Think of it like putting a plaster cast on your foot after you've been stood on by her - but without an xray - it might well help, but ideally you'd have the xray to find out whether you need the cast or not first.
 
Just as a quick re run...
Horse vetted...was perfectly fine til the trot in a small circle thing. Instantly failed...not severe lameness but lame none the less.
To take this further I have my own vet out to double check and give advice.
His advisies that its probably "just the way he is" and possibly a conformation issue. Says he will not guarantee it wont get worse but equally feels it may never progress. He feels that he should either be turned away which, after discussion, we decide has been pretty much done as he has done next to nothing for last few months or get farrier out to put a suitable set of front shoes on. Vet of the opinion that a full work up not necessary and advises buyer they wont get a perfect horse for the asking price (which I have now reduced to £775 including all tack, rug and everything else horse owns).
Vet says he cant advise to buy but equally wont advise not to...the long term is very hit and miss.
 
SatansLittleHelper said:
Just as a quick re run...
Horse vetted...was perfectly fine til the trot in a small circle thing. Instantly failed...not severe lameness but lame none the less.
To take this further I have my own vet out to double check and give advice.
His advisies that its probably "just the way he is" and possibly a conformation issue. Says he will not guarantee it wont get worse but equally feels it may never progress. He feels that he should either be turned away which, after discussion, we decide has been pretty much done as he has done next to nothing for last few months or get farrier out to put a suitable set of front shoes on. Vet of the opinion that a full work up not necessary and advises buyer they wont get a perfect horse for the asking price (which I have now reduced to £775 including all tack, rug and everything else horse owns).
Vet says he cant advise to buy but equally wont advise not to...the long term is very hit and miss.
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But you have insurance and you don't know why he's lame .
Of course the perfect horse does not exist but you don't need to start out with a lame one .
If I were you I would lookalike round your area to see who's the local expert in lameness work ups and take the horse there .
Of course long term is hit and miss because the vets done nothing to make a diagnoses .
 
Thank you. So what does a lameness work up actually involve?? And how long would it take to get some answers??
I not only want to do whats best for the horse but for the buyer too. She is a super lovely lady and has been fantastic through all this x
 
The vet will usually do it at the surgery .
They will assess the horses trotting up lunging etc .
They will nerve block starting at the foot to see where the pain is coming from and hopefully isolate the area.
They then can X-ray , scan or whatever to find out wants wrong.
I usually leave mine at the vets in the morning this means they can do other work while the nerve blocks wear off before they do the next one .
It's more efficent for them and cheaper for you as they are not standing around doing nothing waiting for blocks to wear off.
How it takes to get answers depends , the vet may form an opinion about what's going on and do a block to confirm that the thought looks correct or they may need to start at the foot and work up the leg from there .
They are basically injecting local anisthetic around the nerves that supply feelings to various area when the pain goes you know you in the right area then they set out to work out the why of it all.
 
I would suggest you take the horse to the vets, you will get more for your money. Vet should look at horse being walked and trotted in straight and lunged on the hard, and on a surface.

In your case I think the vet will probably want to nerve block to find out where the lameness is coming from, then X-ray that bit of him.

In this case, if it was me, I would be tempted to get some foot balance X-rays done, if the lameness is not in the foot, and he X-rays other bits of him.
 
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Find a better vet that will remove the 'probably' and 'possibly' from his diagnosis. The value of him is irrelevant as you have insurance to cover the cost of the investigation

Work up may well include nerve blocks (to locate exactly where the lameness is coming from), xrays to rule out bony changes in the foot, scans (if they think that might help identify the problem), it could easily take a good couple of hours and you should be there so you can talk to the vet about his observations as they go, it's like drilling for oil, you might find it with the first hole you dig but equally you might need to dig 20 holes before finding what you are looking for
 
I'm afraid that your vet seems to belong back in the James Herriot era. It may have been possible to say 'that's the way he is' without further investigations 50 years ago but it doesn't really cut the mustard now.

Can you ask around to find a decent local equine vet practice who will do a work up. As Goldenstar said, it can be cheaper to leave him there all day so they can take their time.
 
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