The thinking behind leg yield in E57 & 59

pootleperkin

pootleperkin

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So we did our first Elementary this last week, E57 and I was pretty pleased that we scored just under 64%, with a few easy fixes to give us future improvement.

We are working solidly at Elem at home, and working towards medium. About a month ago I had just started to introduce canter half pass, which he was pretty happy with to the right particularly. However, after practising for E57, I now have a fairly confused horse.

In both E57 and 59, trot leg yields are performed after a change of bend, so say for the leg yield to the right (away from the left leg) you come off a right turn on the short side onto the centre line with inside bend, then essentially have to flex/straighten the horse the other way and leg yield across to the long side you just left - if you kept the same bend it would be half pass.

So after practising this part of the test for the competition last Wednesday, my poor horse was very confused at his lesson on Friday. When we went to practise half pass as I would normally ride it, in canter coming off a turn at short end of the school at A or C, keeping the inside bend and moving across to M or K, he thought about his leg yield and tried his best to give me outside flexion and a canter leg yield, as the pattern / prep was the same, although obviously the pace was different.

I don't see the value in this movement. Is the thinking that this will turn into half pass at the next level, simply by teaching the horse to flex differently? I just don't think this is an easy way to teach the movement; it certainly isn't for my chap. If leg yield is included, why not set it in the test so that it is ridden as you would normally practise, for example on the right rein, heading around the short side, turning down the centre or far 3/4 line and pushing the horse away to the far long side?

As I understand it, leg yield wasn't used in tests until a little while ago, as it isn't a classical 'movement', but rather an initial training aid to help the horse understand the start of lateral work. I use it and shoulder in a lot to get his inside hind leg underneath him, but what I have been left with now is an upset horse who has been set back in learning his half pass work. It's expected that horses competing at a certain level are normally working the level above at home, so I don't understand why the tests would be so counter productive with regard to the learning curve for the horse? Am I missing something?
 
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Hi

The reason why they ask for the turn to the centre line, change flexion and leg yield away is to show the rider has the horse balanced through the turn, can change the flexion on a straight line and that the horse is not coming through the turn and falling straight out through the outside shoulder. In that respect I agree with the theme.

However I do not agree with the use of leg yield in a test. It is a dis-engaging exercise and serves only to gain response to the leg and suppleness. Regarding this push to follow the scales of training then leg yield is far easier to teach than medium trot but medium trot is in Novice with leg yield in Elementary. If anything I would take medium trot out of Novice, drop leg yield down to Novice (if they have to include it....) and go from there.

Although I see your point re confusing the horse I would take this as an opportunity to improve your work. I always encourage riders to break things down and be in control of each bit of the work. For example shoulder-in. Come through the corner to the long side - assess and ride the corner as best you can. Then ride straight - balanced and soft forwards to both reins. Then ask for the inside lateral flexion - neck and body straight just a flexion to the inside and then develop the bringing in of the shoulders. The blunt part is that if the horse is truly on your aids s/he should be listening to what you are asking for and not second guessing although in the learning stage is not that simple. Break your work down to feel that you can place the horse where, when and how you want. You will gain better responsiveness, suppleness and quality of work.
 
I have to disagree with you on the leg yield, I think it's important to be able to do it in either direction to show that the horse was truly straight after the turn. A lot of people turn left, allow the horse to fall out of the right shoulder and then drift to the right thinking they have correct lateral work when they do not - control of the shoulders is paramount in lateral work.

If your horse is getting confused do you think it might be because he is anticipating? Try having a friend stand on the centre line, you turn up the centre line and only after your horse is straight does the friend tell you whether you will be doing left or right leg yield, which you then need to do without running the friend over!

I would also try a sense of shoulder in before HP which should distinguish it from leg yielding.
 
It's all about straightness and having the horse truly through into both reins. It's quite easy actually when the horse is really forward and through into both reins!

Although how you ride LY at home and how you ride it for a BD test may be slightly different!!!
 
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I agree that in an established horse, all of this should be fine, but at this stage (as I say, he did his first elem last week) I don't find it helpful. I'm not complaining about the leg yield because it is difficult; Booboos, he can do it in either direction, no probs and I agree, you should be able to do it both ways and keep control of the shoulders, but I don't find it helpful at this stage in the training as intuitively, the test setters should realise that people will be playing with half pass at home. Also, even if you did do leg yield the basic way, it would soon find those out who were just letting their horses drift out through the shoulder!

As I say, obviously this will be worked through and eventually he will be through enough. Simon, thanks for your input - the shoulder in exercise is something we use all the time and he also does that no problem. Since practising for the test, I agree that what I am seeing more than anything is anticipation and that is blocking the half pass, but the leg yield movement has also helped him in his attempts try to get out of something that he doesn't find easy, i.e. the concept of moving into the flexion. You are right, in the learning stage it is not that simple and I'm a bit cross that as we will be competing elem for the foreseeable future, we are going to keep running into this confusion for some time. We also have to figure in the numpty who is sitting on him who has never had a horse at this level before, so could, quite easily, not always be helping him!

I also agree that LY would be better at novice and medium work at Elem - LY is something I started to teach him from day one as you use it hacking and for general manoeuvrability. G has only recently starting offering medium trot himself, since we have been doing more collected work as he moves up the scale. I really believe that pushing and pushing the horse for medium (in some tests last year I really did feel I was flogging a dead horse!) when they haven't started to lift through the shoulders enough to give a consistent medium doesn't really get you anywhere. I find he offers it to me after more collected work, counter canter, 10 m circles and the like as he wants to be more forward and flowing as a release after collections - its more natural to him and he enjoys it - surely that is the point!

Bit of video of him from last Friday starting to get his head back around baby HP here: http://youtu.be/eZVxHVSuB08
 
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Well if you don't find LY helpful and he can do it really well stop practicing it. It's a bit odd to expect the people who set the tests to know what you find helpful and limit themselves to that!
 
Ok.deep breath.

To my eye he isn't ready to start HP work.

He's not bending round your inside leg and the inside hand coming up and back over the wither tells me he hasn't been taught to maintain the inside bend on his own or to be able to move his shoulders and quarters independently.

He needs to go back to basics and become more supple and develop lateral self carriage.

The aids for LY and HP are totally different so he shouldn't be getting confused.

The FEI directives for each movement are clearly laid out and the progression from elem to med (movement wise) have been the same for ages so clearly the powers that be, and those consulted by them, feel there shouldn't be confusion either.

If you can get him more supple and truly straight and even I think this problem will disappear :)
 
That's fair comment PS and I agree at this moment in time. This is a complete amateur enjoying her horse, progressing relatively slowly and playing with different movements as he starts to feel he could offer them. The fact that he really finds thinking about HP to the left difficult backs up what you say for the most part. What I would say in reply is that before we did E57 last week, he was managing and maintaining the inside bend relatively happily and didn't feel confused - that was back to square one in the video, whereas a couple of weeks ago we were maybe at 3rd base. He does perform SI well and travers, this snapshot video where is he a bit discombobulated maybe doesn't give you a full impression, plus I had gone worried and stiff too, so wasn't helping!

Going back to basics is on the agenda every time we school so to speak, as this horse mostly tries to lurk behind my leg and so to have him truly into the bridle is difficult - I will concede completely that this is where we would lack consistency. He is a complicated person, caused in the main by his health (EGS survivor, lameness issues and last year problems with energy and respiratory issues, so getting consistent work into him is a problem). He is genuine and tries, but often doesn't have the beans to give you everything. At the mo' he is firing on all cylinders and feeling much more forward, so now is the time to work on building the strength in his back and core to make sure he improves his suppleness both laterally and over his back. Hopefully, this will start to be reflected in his tests and he is certainly coming through, collecting, lifting through the shoulders more and is softer through his transitions. So maybe I'll forget about playing with HP for a while, and just keep on with lateral suppleness exercises.

Booboos, I think your last comment is a little facile...of course I don't expect the people who set the tests to know what 'I' find helpful.....but it wasn't just me that commented on these movements, it was through discussion with my instructor and a few other interested observers that brought up discussion about this being a bit of a weird movement at this level, but you know, that's why I brought up the topic and I'm interested to see what folk think.

It would seem that for professionals / people who have horses completely established at the level, then of course such movements shouldn't be a problem in terms of impeding progression and I guess I can see that; the movement asks the question and established horses will do it well with no problems and they are also probably whizzing round doing HP no problems too! My horse does LY relatively well, as he has been doing it for a number of years, and is continuing to improve as he gains better self carriage. However for people like myself who have just progressed to Elem and have Medium in their long term sights and so want to be testing new movements (because just asking the question throws up thought processes which make you realise what homework has to be done, so is useful even in that aspect), then it just seems counter-intuitive. Looking at it from the other side, I guess it does it's job in that I will have to go away and make sure that that my horse is in lateral self carriage before he will do a reasonable half pass. I still don't like it though - my horse is now confused/anticipating and I don't like things that make my life more difficult! ;)

Also, don't practise? Of course I find LY helpful, it gets him stepping under and flexing his hocks - I would use it when warming up in every schooling session, but I wouldn't use it in the way of these tests. I find trot LY zig zags (4 steps then change direction) for example, more useful as anticipation is decreased even more and lateral carriage is really tested. Come on, if you are going to go out and ride a test that week, would you not practise the movement at least a few times prior to riding the test? I didn't say he could do the LY really well, I said no probs - he would generally get a 6 or 7, but I would prefer he was getting 8s, so practise is always good. Also, I don't want to drop me or the horse in it on the day of competition. Again, blame that urge on the horse not being completely established, or on my competitive nature, or on me not being perfect, but in the real world I can't see many folk not breaking a test down and practising parts prior to competition.
 
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I don't like the LY in those tests either, PP. I haven't ridden, or thought about them enough, to have analysed why I dislike them, but I see them as an unfortunate evil to be endured whenever I've ridden those tests. I'd far rather ride HP (either way - with a change of bend or without). But I'm also fairly sure those who wrote the tests had a better logic for their inclusion than my guttural dislike for them, which is based purely on the quirks of the one horse I have who has those sorts of buttons installed. I have a similar hatred of novice tests, for no apparent reason.

Not the most helpful reply, but there's a degree of solidarity in there at least!
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm really confused. Surely LY should be an important part of schooling whatever 'level' you compete at?
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Some classical schools feel that LY is an unhelpful exercise as the horse moves against the direction of bend, unlike the more advanced lateral work. Not that I necessarily agree with their views.
 
Some of the old masters disliked leg yield with a vengeance because it is a dis-engaging exercise that also could lead to injury (legs knocking into each other etc). Its not about the flexion being away from the direction of movement; its about the lack of bend.

Engagement is basically where the hind leg steps under the centre of the horses body in order to drive the horse forwards. Whenever the hindleg steps away from the direction of the centre of gravity there is less engagement and therefore less push forwards. Any lateral work ridden without bend through the whole body means that the sideways steps is taking the hindleg away from the centre and as such is dis-engaging.

Its also not true to say that the progression from elementary to medium has been the same for ages. Within the last (cant exactly remember when...) say 10 years they have removed sitting trot and, more importantly imho, removed shoulder-in and introduced rising trot and leg yield. This has made elementary far nearer novice level and the jump to medium level far harder.
 
Another amateur here with a homebred horse working our way up through the levels. However after we had grasped the very basics of leg yield my trainer would have us do it with a change of bend to start with (so similar as you find in the elementary tests) so this was never an issue. It certainly wasn't a problem when doing half pass (but then I think the set up and aids for half pass are different - particularly where your weight is, at least it is for me). It is more complicated in those elementary tests, as it should be, they are looking for the suppleness and bend and connection, and in having to straighten, establish new bend and then leg yield you need those to all be in place.
So yes, it isn't easy but it is a test of where you are at. The horse shouldn't get confused with half pass (as the aids/weight are different) and also you only ever trot leg yield in tests. Your prep work for leg yield will be different to the prep work for half pass, your weight aids should be clear so the horse should easily distinguish between the different movements.

Once our half pass was established we now use a very popular exercise with German classical school which is half pass, leg yield, half pass, leg yield (continuing in the same direction of travel) which is really useful for suppling the horse.
 
Actually Simon, I've heard Sylvia Loch use that explanation of why she doesn't ride leg yield much / at all, almost word for word... That's why I said it!
 
JFTD said:
Actually Simon, I've heard Sylvia Loch use that explanation of why she doesn't ride leg yield much / at all, almost word for word... That's why I said it!
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Yes, with leg yield the flexion is away from the direction of travel. The flexion and bend is also away from direction of travel in shoulder-in so that reasoning would not fit as Sylvia obviously uses s/in.
 
Simon Battram said:
Yes, with leg yield the flexion is away from the direction of travel. The flexion and bend is also away from direction of travel in shoulder-in so that reasoning would not fit as Sylvia obviously uses s/in.
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I didn't say it was logical, but she did say it - perhaps it was just not well articulated.
 
Cheers all, it's an interesting discussion. The main thing is he can do the LY (even if not the HP yet), so we can happily go ahead with our elementary progression if not getting our heads around HP just yet!

JFTD - the solidarity is much appreciated :D I think my overwhelming dislike of these partic LY movements is that I feel like you should just do HP at that point, rather than change the bend.....it just feels wrong to disengage and LY!
 
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pootleperkin said:
Cheers all, it's an interesting discussion. The main thing is he can do the LY (even if not the HP yet), so we can happily go ahead with our elementary progression if not getting our heads around HP just yet!

JFTD - the solidarity is much appreciated :D I think my overwhelming dislike of these partic LY movements is that I feel like you should just do HP at that point, rather than change the bend.....it just feels wrong to disengage and LY!
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Considered replying to this yesterday but couldn't phrase what I wanted to say well enough. Others have done it for me now!
However, I will also show solidarity. I just don't like Elem tests these days, so with Millie I did a few then realised I wasn't enjoying them. We left the competition arena for a couple of years, trained at home and came back ready for Medium.
....always an option ;)
 
pootleperkin said:
Cheers all, it's an interesting discussion. The main thing is he can do the LY (even if not the HP yet), so we can happily go ahead with our elementary progression if not getting our heads around HP just yet!

JFTD - the solidarity is much appreciated :D I think my overwhelming dislike of these partic LY movements is that I feel like you should just do HP at that point, rather than change the bend.....it just feels wrong to disengage and LY!
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Two of the exercises I get set are:
Leg yield a few steps down long side to centre line, half pass back.
Leg yield a few steps, a few steps straight, leg yield other way
I think you should be able to go straight with flexion either way, go on a circle with flexion either way, enlarge or reduce circle with flexion either way, ask horse to move in either direction on a straight line, away from leg irrespective of flexion.
I appreciate that half pass has more bend through body, and more flexion than leg yield, but there are similarities. The horse needs to learn to move body away from leg irrespective of direction of flexion, when asked.
I think there are suppling benefits of leg yield depending on how you use it, and depending on the horse..
And never mind the horse getting confused, I rode a medium test a few months ago, first rein rode trot half pass. Second rein on auto pilot set up and rode leg yield, then realized and corrected by last stride – judges comment muddled!!
I actually think it is harder to do leg yield by coming down CL and keeping the same bend, as more likely to fall through outside shoulder and drift. Changing bend forces you to ride few strides straight, and reminds me to own the outside shoulder.
 
That thought had occurred to me, milliepops! I'm tempted to bring F out at medium properly in a couple of months and to hell with elementaries!
 
Simon Battram said:
I think dressage has already been dumbed down more than enough! No way should a few medium strides be taken out of novice.

Leg-yield should be at prelim or even into level. How can anyone ride a corner without a step of leg yield here and there?

Shoulder in should be brought back to Elementary.

Anyone who is struggling with leg-yield, with or without change of bend needs to find themselves a better trainer! It is very, very easy. Some peeps appear to dress it up , over complicate and confuse their pupils deliberately.
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Moomin1 said:
I'm really confused. Surely LY should be an important part of schooling whatever 'level' you compete at?
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I agree. Moving away from the inside leg aid whilst moving forwards is an important exercise. Spiralling out of circles is a case in point. For me, leg yield is one of the easiest lateral movements to teach. I find it useful.
 
Simon Battram said:
So can I take it that you are not a believer that medium / extension should come from collection?
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A few steps of medium is hardly the same as full extension. But anyway, no, the word and concept of collection is over used and unnecessary. It sounds as though you believe that the poor, simple old leg yield is the killer of higher level training possibilities. Surely nobody could ever be so deluded?
 
oldhag said:
I think dressage has already been dumbed down more than enough! No way should a few medium strides be taken out of novice.

Leg-yield should be at prelim or even into level. How can anyone ride a corner without a step of leg yield here and there?

Shoulder in should be brought back to Elementary.
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Well that would certainly spice things up a little :D
 
Just watched your vid and reading your post I was thinking that maybe some schoolmaster lessons would really help you grasp the aids and the amount of bend /impulsion/ flexion / and jump in the canter. I used to go weekly for a few months and it really was an eye opener riding a highly trained horse as if you get it wrong you know about it!
It makes you get it right then it's much easier to show an untrained horse how to do it when you are established yourself xx
 
oldhag said:
A few steps of medium is hardly the same as full extension. But anyway, no, the word and concept of collection is over used and unnecessary. It sounds as though you believe that the poor, simple old leg yield is the killer of higher level training possibilities. Surely nobody could ever be so deluded?
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"the word and concept of collection is over used and unnecessary"......I will then politely move on, wish you a good day and go to work. I thought we were talking about dressage and so to state that collection is unnecessary means that you are not. My mistake...
 
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