The truth about barefoot

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I asked my farrier a few years ago about barefoot, he asked if I did much road work, to which I replied yes, his reply was, "his feet would be fukked in a week", I always go with what my farrier says, as he is the proffesional who has all the training and has shod my daughters horses for years and a lot of my friends horses.

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I guess your farrier may not be aware of barefoot horses that do a lot of road work, but then again he may be right in your case.

However the police horses in Houston are barefoot and they fdo 8 hours a day on roads. Being police they keep good records adn what they found was that their barefoot police horses had fewer days off sick than the shod ones,and that they had much better traction.

When they first started to go barefoot their farrier threatened to sue them, and stated publically that they were being cruel etc. IMHO he would have been smarter to have learned to trim and gone with the flow.

The horse hoof magazine has several article about these barefoot police horses www.thehorseshoof.com
 
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a website is not a reference

a peer reviewed paper is.

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Agreed!
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My lecturer would be very mad at you, all that information and not one reference! without knowing where you got that information I can't take it seriously I have to say!
 
Oh cptrays, you wee doing okay until you picked on Shilasdair (who if you read any of her other posts always puts a grinning smiley on the end of every post, its a "Resident Daemon thing"
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Then you descended into not having any faith in vets and throwing your toys out of the pram. The idea that you raise a topic then tell others to get their own research to prove your point is laughable.

Great sensible debate, huh?
 
Hello stranger!

The stuff your referring to is SoleGuard by Vettek.

Ive not used this stuff personally, but its 'shod horse' equivilant is Vettek Equipak. or Equipak CS.

These are both fantasitc for thin soled horses who get footy with shoes on, on rough land. So I would go as far as to say that the Soleguard would be quiet good for footy unshod horses.

I think you were quiet rude to Shilz OP.. and they she bit ya.. can't blame her. Her requests were sensible and deserved a valid response.

You seem to be marvalous at discussions as long as they conform to the line of discussion you expect. Which unfortunatly, on this forum, is unlikly to happen.

Horses as we know them, have been bred in captivity, because of this undesirable atributes arise, poor feet which need support and protection is one of them. Sorry if you dislike this.
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Lou x
 
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Oh for crying out loud you people! The questions I refuse to answer are the ones that are already answered in my post, the ones that have been answered a million times already in other threads (yes, horses can do roadwork with no shoes on!) and the ones which are put simply to pick a fight with me.

Want the research references? - do your own work I'm not your bl**dy slave! Start with Rockleyfarm.co.uk, pick up references from there and carry on. Buy "Performance Barefoot" - if for no other reason than there is a super picture of my horse jumping a lovely big fence with his bare feet on the front.

If you are geniunely interested in learning as opposed to picking a fight you would do that.

I particularly love the fact that someone who states outright that I can be compared with a fascist racist complains that s/he may be considered a troll for doing so. Priceless hypocrisy!

This post has done what I meant it to. There are now hundreds of people who have a more balanced view of barefoot.

I have said it causes early laminitis and that not all horses can do it and that it takes a lot of work in some cases and you STILL claim that I am hiding something? Grow up the lot of you.

Since the thread has now been taken over by idiots I won't be posting again.

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Harsh. The beauty of this forum is that people challenge everything and vary rarely take anything at face value when it comes to discussing the more controversial issues. Which obviously this is.

I wonder why you would think based on this thread that "There are now hundreds of people who have a more balanced view of barefoot - because there has been no balanced discussion at all.

Asking for references when quoting scientific opinion and findings is the norm. And if you aren't willing to point people in that direction, without being stroppy about it, then the last thing you are doing is encouraging people to engage with the discussion. You are turning people off.

I'm actually quite keen to know more. I don't think for a moment that my horse could go without shoes - but I am very interested in what you've said about the holistic approach to looking after my horse. However, the 'it's your way or the highway' approach really, really puts me off engaging with you further.

It might make me an idiot. But actually there is only one idiot I can see posting on this thread - which is a shame. I think you probably have quite a bit to offer. I'm just not sure that anyone is going to want to listen
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a website is not a reference

a peer reviewed paper is.

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In academic circles maybe, but we are talking about the real world here.

A website that contains case studies is a valid reference, as is an article written about a subject and quoting practical exereience - like the Houston PD police horses. Of course you do not have to believe what the police say.
 
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Not actually the case, and an equine "urban myth", but of the veterinary report indicates poor or incomptetent hoof care then they may refuse the claim.

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NOT an urban myth - I was renewing my horse insurance last week and I promise you several of the 'big name' companies had this clause in.

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Just checked my Pet Plan policy and it's certainly not a clause they include. They do mention you must get your horse looked at by a dentist each year - but don't state what qualifications that dentist must have. Doesn't mention feet at all.

Went on a lovely hack this morning with my friend on my two barefoot horses. She's never ridden a barefoot horse before and was all beaming smiles as we walked balanced, happy and safely down the very steep tarmaced road to the bottom of the valley. Every shod horse in the village takes it's life - and that of it's rider - in it's hands when they ride down that hill. And god help them when they ride along the sections leading into and out of the village that the council coated with the noise reducing surface. It's an icerink for metal shoes.

I find the comment from the farrier who said a weeks work on roads for a non-shod horse would result in ruined feet mind boggling. I can only imagine he's very old school because most farriers these days seem to recognise that barefoot is a viable option.

A question for the farriers on here, on anyone else who knows the answer, what proportion of the apprentice farriers training is learning how to trim and balance the foot and what proportion is spent learning how to make the shoe fit the foot, nail the shoe on the foot and finish the foot off once the shoe is fitted? I'd also be interested in knowing the training apprentices get in horse nutrition and environmental factors.

In all my years of having horses, the vast majority of which I've always had them shod, I've never once had a farrier trot my horse up before or after shoeing, or ask me about his diet or how he's kept. I've never had a farrier comment on my horse's musculatory development or question the fit of his saddle.

I have had farriers that pride themselves on being able to do a full set of shoes in less than twenty minutes and many farriers who let their apprentices trim the horses hooves and only step in when it comes to the metal bit. I've had farriers who turn up late or don't turn up at all. I've had farriers who never answer their phones or return messages and I've had farriers that think it's acceptable to smack a horse with a rasp or kick him in the ribs.

But before the die hards leap on me amongst the many less than admirable farriers I've experienced I have come across one or two good ones, who do actually want to do what's best for the horse. But the most alarming experience I had was this year and what finally pushed me into taking the shoes off altogether. A farrier who had only been qualified a couple of years, so I assumed would be up to date and aware of all the latest scientific thought and practises, nice guy, turned up when he said he was going to turn up, pleasant bloke, but totally mangled my horse's feet - this being a horse with brillant, uncomplicated feet. How could someone who's so recently come through the extensive four year training system do such a bad job and have so little knowledge when quizzed?

I suppose I should thank him really - if it wasn't for him I'd still have shod horses
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^ agreed, nothing wrong with case studies and i am actually interested in it and I know research has been done, I have seen some of the papers. But I don't think the onus should be on me, the reader to find them.

Case studies are all very well but at the very least the information from them needs to be collated and reviewed not just in barefooters own magazines.
 
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a website is not a reference

a peer reviewed paper is.

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In academic circles maybe, but we are talking about the real world here.

A website that contains case studies is a valid reference, as is an article written about a subject and quoting practical exereience - like the Houston PD police horses. Of course you do not have to believe what the police say.

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Just because we are discussing equine science, does not mean the standards of scientific research should be any lower.

The fact you infer a divide between 'academia' with their silly need for peer review, RCTs etc, and the real world where things are true, based on an individual's anecdotal case study, reveals the poor science behind many of the barefoot hypotheses.
Prove me wrong - I'd love the references (links to websites are not, as other posters have pointed out, references).
S
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I find the comment from the farrier who said a weeks work on roads for a non-shod horse would result in ruined feet mind boggling

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I'm not sure it was him that said that
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I'm actually quite keen to know more. I don't think for a moment that my horse could go without shoes - but I am very interested in what you've said about the holistic approach to looking after my horse. However, the 'it's your way or the highway' approach really, really puts me off engaging with you further.



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You should definitely do some research. I'm new to barefoot - took the plunge in June with my first horse and have since de-shoed two more, one of whom came straight out of racing in August. I bought him from the Sales and within a day of him coming home took his shoes off. My YO thought I was mad (I'm the only person on the yard who doesn't shoe) but kept quiet. After a week she admitted she was stunned - she'd assumed he'd be crippled but in fact he managed well from the get go. It certainly opened her eyes. Have to say I was surprised too! But he's doing brilliantly.

Just out of interest why do you think your horse could never cope without shoes? I get that a lot now. People congratulate me and my horses but then say 'well my horse could never manage' - as if I've waved some magic wand or have extraordinary horses. Neither of which are true I hasten to add.

What taking the shoes off has done is make me ultra aware of everything I do with my horses - the diet, the environment, saddle fit, exercise etc. It really does make you take responsibility for the whole horse rather than just relying on what the vet says, and the farrier says and the feed companies say and the saddlers say and the YO says. Instead I listen to what my horse says - the feet are an early warning system of things going wrong in the rest of the body.

For me taking my horses shoes off was a bit of a leap of faith but I haven't regretted it once and I've learned more about hooves in the five months I've been barefoot than in the twenty odd years I spent around horses before that.
 
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I find the comment from the farrier who said a weeks work on roads for a non-shod horse would result in ruined feet mind boggling

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I'm not sure it was him that said that
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I wasn't refering to the HHO member called TheFarrier - who always seems informed and a good example of his profession - but rather the post of another member who quoted their own farrier... sorry for any confusion.
 
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Just out of interest why do you think your horse could never cope without shoes?

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Because I know from experience, and his terribly thin soles that he can't. However, as I said I'm very interested in the 'holistic' approach to management - exluding the shoes off for this particular horse.
 
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QR

I didn't see (may have missed) the barefoot person's opinion on "my horse is working more/on harder ground than he was and he is footsore". What is the barefooters answer to that?

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If you suddenly put a barefoot horse onto hard or stony ground from soft ground I would expect it to be footy - this is no different from you taking you shoes off and trying to run across a shingle beach. You will go "ouch" yet someone from a primitive tribe who does not wear shoes would simply shorten their stride to cater for the different surface and continue. This is all part of the management of a barefoot horse

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QRMy personal opinion is that barefoot trimmers would be a lot better respected if they worked with the NFC to produce a minimum standard or set of regulations, training, something, ANYTHING to mean that trimmers are all fully trained and qualified. Personally I think it needs a change to the farriery act, so that it is enforced by law. Working with NFC would also minimise the bun fight that sadly some barefooters stoop to. Farriers train for FIVE years. And its not just in how to trim a foot to fit a shoe.

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I think you will find that many of the trimming organisations are working together with Lantra to get something similar in place.

As regards the bun fight - it is not only the barefooters, to many traditional horse people the very mention of barefoot is enough to cause apoplexy. There is also the opinions of all the experts (remember when experts prescribed bleeding for illness or more recently immobilisation for back problems).

I am not condemming them, just suggesting that sometimes they perhaps could consider that there may be another way than their way.
 
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I find the comment from the farrier who said a weeks work on roads for a non-shod horse would result in ruined feet mind boggling

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I'm not sure it was him that said that
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I wasn't refering to the HHO member called TheFarrier - who always seems informed and a good example of his profession - but rather the post of another member who quoted their own farrier... sorry for any confusion.

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Ah, right - yes I can see that. sorry
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There is also the opinions of all the experts (remember when experts prescribed bleeding for illness or more recently immobilisation for back problems).

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and this is why people do science and research and full proper reviews of case studies in order to make improvements from an informed position.
 
The problem with the 'old schoolers' is not the concept of a horse being unshod, the problem is more with the profession of Barefoot Trimmer. The problem lies with a group of individuals who do little training in comparison to farriers, charge extorsionate prices, berate the farriery profession, appeal to peoples more ignorant knowlage and get away with it. thats where the problem lies.

The concept of an unshod horse, their managment and futures really are not that new a concept. The benefits to some horse of being unshod are also no a new concept and have been practised by farrier for years.

Lou x
 
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Not actually the case, and an equine "urban myth", but of the veterinary report indicates poor or incomptetent hoof care then they may refuse the claim.

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NOT an urban myth - I was renewing my horse insurance last week and I promise you several of the 'big name' companies had this clause in.

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Just checked my Pet Plan policy and it's certainly not a clause they include. They do mention you must get your horse looked at by a dentist each year - but don't state what qualifications that dentist must have. Doesn't mention feet at all.



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And I did NOT say all, I said several. I didn't get a quote from PetPlan as I always find them more expensive, and KBIS don't have it as a clause either, but some of the myriad of others did, I am trying to find out which ones it was, but TBH it is a pretty dull pastime!

ETA: It's Stoneways, and they are underwritten by Allianz, who also underwrite several of the other big companies, so I would be ringing my insurance company if I was underwritten by Allianz and did not want to use a registered farrier:

(b) any shoeing or foot trimming is performed by a registered farrier.

http://www.stonewaysinsurance.co.uk/claimforms.asp and click on Horse Insurance Terms and Conditions on the bottom left.
 
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There is also the opinions of all the experts (remember when experts prescribed bleeding for illness or more recently immobilisation for back problems).

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and this is why people do science and research and full proper reviews of case studies in order to make improvements from an informed position.

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CPAT is right - those old fogies didn't know what they were doing - shoes should be thrown out, along with bleeding, and medicinal leeches....oh...wait....
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I think Ill ge have a look at my NFU one, cause I bet thats got the clause in.. No one, except myself or a qualified farrier will ever do any work on my horses feet lol

Lou x
 
Well, Allianz, who underwrite Stoneways, also underwrite PetPlan, so anyone with PetPlan should probably check their cover too, as it's definitely in the Ts&Cs for Stoneways.....
 
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The problem with the 'old schoolers' is not the concept of a horse being unshod, the problem is more with the profession of Barefoot Trimmer. The problem lies with a group of individuals who do little training in comparison to farriers, charge extorsionate prices, berate the farriery profession, appeal to peoples more ignorant knowlage and get away with it. thats where the problem lies.



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Have to say that's not my experience of barefoot trimmers. The ones I've come across have been extremely knowledgable and have actively encouraged me to learn more about horses feet and diet myself. No farrier has ever encouraged me to do that or even been remotely interested in doing anything other than their job and collecting their money, oh and sharing the local horsey gossip! Not saying all farriers are like that by any means, but that's certainly my experience.
 
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Yes.. i think youll find thats what she was getting at..

Lou x

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What I took as the point was that what is accepted practise changes many times over the years.

I was always told that you bandage a tendon injury to give it support but I now understand the current line of thinking is that bandaging is not the best treatment as it retains too much heat, so you should leave the leg bare. But my vet still advises to bandage - who should I believe? Which is correct?
 
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Yes.. i think youll find thats what she was getting at..

Lou x

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What I took as the point was that what is accepted practise changes many times over the years.

I was always told that you bandage a tendon injury to give it support but I now understand the current line of thinking is that bandaging is not the best treatment as it retains too much heat, so you should leave the leg bare. But my vet still advises to bandage - who should I believe? Which is correct?

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You should believe the hypothesis which is supported by most of the scientific evidence - this is where RCTs come in.
So to find out, you would take a number of horses with comparable tendon injuries, bandage half, leave the other half, and compare the results.
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