the truth about youngsters

siennamum said:
I despair slightly at the attitude that learning the breaking process with your young horse is a wonderful rewarding experience and a kind of rite of passage. I know it works well for lots of people, and that lot of experienced people can get it wrong but I see people doing stupid things with young horses all the time.
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Personally I think it is a rewarding experience, having not the money to buy a ready to go 5/6yo i bred from my mare and have a super young mare now (half sister to AA's Alice), equally what people view as "stupid" is a bit like peoples opinions on colours- all differ from where you are standing.

But she is mine, she has a tricky moments- thank goodness otherwise I would be convinced she was abnormal.

I don't think its that hard to tell who will be tricky, horses will give you some signs prior to starting them.
 
dianchi said:
I don't think its that hard to tell who will be tricky, horses will give you some signs prior to starting them.
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Erm, no. Often it's the nicest, quietist youngsters, who's owners say "Oh, she'll be a doddle to break as she's such a sweetie" that prove to be demons from hell once the tack goes on, and the frightened, shaking babies can be the easiest once they've figured out we're not trying to kill them. You just can't tell until you get started, but it is the trainer's job to get them all doing the same thing by the end.
 
Cortez said:
Erm, no. Often it's the nicest, quietist youngsters, who's owners say "Oh, she'll be a doddle to break as she's such a sweetie" that prove to be demons from hell once the tack goes on, and the frightened, shaking babies can be the easiest once they've figured out we're not trying to kill them. You just can't tell until you get started, but it is the trainer's job to get them all doing the same thing by the end.
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This!!
 
Cortez said:
Erm, no. Often it's the nicest, quietist youngsters, who's owners say "Oh, she'll be a doddle to break as she's such a sweetie" that prove to be demons from hell once the tack goes on, and the frightened, shaking babies can be the easiest once they've figured out we're not trying to kill them. You just can't tell until you get started, but it is the trainer's job to get them all doing the same thing by the end.
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Agreed! My mare was the easiest youngster, had no problem being bitter or having the girth done up, but the second she moved and felt the restriction of the girth she exploded! Made me a bit more careful about getting on when I did back her but she did nothing. I expected my stallion to be tricky but he has been the sweetest horse I have met.
 
Cortez said:
Erm, no. Often it's the nicest, quietist youngsters, who's owners say "Oh, she'll be a doddle to break as she's such a sweetie" that prove to be demons from hell once the tack goes on, and the frightened, shaking babies can be the easiest once they've figured out we're not trying to kill them. You just can't tell until you get started, but it is the trainer's job to get them all doing the same thing by the end.
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Well I think that attitude is exactly why!
Experience work on the ground with youngsters gives plenty of signs.
It all depends on where you view starting them from
 
Cortez's comment was in response to dianchi... I think the point dianchi is making is that it depends where you think "starting" is. Cortez seemed to imply backing was the starting point - while dianchi seems to think it's before that. I agree with dianchi - I think you can clearly see what horses are going to react to if you've gone through a lot of groundwork in advance... How would you be caught by surprise by the reaction to a girth if you'd already desensitised the horse to that feeling for instance? It simply depends on where "starting" begins. Doesn't make either method "better" - it's a different approach with the same outcome.
 
I expect Cortez is used to doing plenty of ground work in advance of backing. Originally the comment was in response to me saying that you cannot always predict how a horse will behave & need to be flexible, (I think, although I'm sure that will prompt a counter argument somehow)
In my experience the work done in hand dictates how successfully your backing is & I will take as long as is required in that phase. Backing is usually pretty uneventful also. I find unpredictability usually in the next few months when the horse may surprise you with it's reactions to things.
 
Barnacle said:
How would you be caught by surprise by the reaction to a girth if you'd already desensitised the horse to that feeling for instance?.
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I've found no matter how much desensitisation you do simulating the girth, until you do it up tight enough to mount, you can't know how the horse will respond. Most are perfectly fine, some will explode as soon as they move and feel the restriction against their chests. There isn't really any way to prepare for this - even if you spend several sessions with the girth loose, it is the restriction that can bother them.

Despite having backed two horses that took a while to get used to the girth, none have ever done anything when having a rider on the back for the first time :)
 
Actually I don't regard backing to be the starting point, it takes at least a couple of weeks of ground work before any horse is ready to be sat on, and no horse is ready for that until it is comfortable with all aspects of wearing tack and moving in all paces with it on, flapping and banging. And based on a lifetime spent breaking young horses for a living I can categorically state that even the calmest, sweetest little darling can have some surprises up it's sleeve once the rider is on board. I've broken several hundred, at least.
 
EQUIDAE said:
I've found no matter how much desensitisation you do simulating the girth, until you do it up tight enough to mount, you can't know how the horse will respond. Most are perfectly fine, some will explode as soon as they move and feel the restriction against their chests. There isn't really any way to prepare for this - even if you spend several sessions with the girth loose, it is the restriction that can bother them.

Despite having backed two horses that took a while to get used to the girth, none have ever done anything when having a rider on the back for the first time :)
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but why do you only do the girth up when you are about to mount? the horse should be used to it being done up for work and the saddle having the stirrups pulled gently so that the saddle changes weight a bit on its back well before the rider gets on so there is nothing to give the horse anything to worry about when it first feels the weight of someone
 
i take at least three months minimum prep, I think this is the least time to ensure that the young horse is physically capable of carrying a rider, and mentally is very happy in its work programme, I would never back a horse until it has the muscles along the bac k developing through lunging and longreining and it has found a certain baby balance to enable it to cope with the obviously unbalancing effect of carrying a rider.

if the horse is happy mentally and relaxed, backing is a natural progression, I think the greatest ability in a trainer is to be able to notice the slightest reaction of the horse and back off and find an intelligent humane solution.


the amount of time and work and sheer concentration involved is enormous, and after the backing I believe in moving forward and riding them thoroughly out and about, the qualities of nerve, patience, anticipation, concentration and dedication are needed. but empathy and being able to feel what another creature is actually thinking go a long way for me.
 
Cortez said:
Actually I don't regard backing to be the starting point, it takes at least a couple of weeks of ground work before any horse is ready to be sat on, and no horse is ready for that until it is comfortable with all aspects of wearing tack and moving in all paces with it on, flapping and banging. And based on a lifetime spent breaking young horses for a living I can categorically state that even the calmest, sweetest little darling can have some surprises up it's sleeve once the rider is on board. I've broken several hundred, at least.
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Totally agree, I think anyone who thinks they can predict how every horse will react based on the early groundwork and handling just needs to back maybe 50 more horses and then see if they still think that! I've also backed many horses, a variety of breeds etc, and I totally agree with Cortez.
 
crabbymare said:
but why do you only do the girth up when you are about to mount? the horse should be used to it being done up for work and the saddle having the stirrups pulled gently so that the saddle changes weight a bit on its back well before the rider gets on so there is nothing to give the horse anything to worry about when it first feels the weight of someone
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l didn't say that l did. l said that my the first time you do the girth up [tight enough as if you were mounting] and the horse moves (unmounted} they can explode when they feel the restriction. lt doesn't matter how many times you do it up loosely, eventually they will have to feel it tight and some really object to this. Others don't of course.
 
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