The truth, the whole truth - barefoot footiness

[Faro]

I'll be honest too. All 4 of mine (3 ridden, 1 retired) are barefoot. I've never had a problem with footiness, apart from one (Pharaoh) would always show about a week or 2 of footiness each spring when the new grass started to come through, and then go back to his normal non-footsore self. None of mine have ever been shod.

However this year the horses are in a different location. The grass here is definitely richer and I am struggling to keep the weight off the boys. Funny enough, this year it wasn't Pharaoh who showed the footiness, but Amir instead - who previously had shown no symptoms and would canter over flints quite happily (not that I do that all the time!). The different pasture has definitely had an impact upon Amir's feet and I am having to watch him very carefully. He won't have shoes put on though - once we've got the weight off, I expect him to be back to normal, and I will have learned by next spring how to be ready in advance for the type of grazing I now have (knowledge which I didn't have coming into this spring).

 

[j1ffy]

To answer a few questions that might come up, before they do:


Because this "footiness" is caused by gut bacteria leaking into the bloodstream, and they will stay there affecting the horse even if I put shoes on and stop it showing. Boots are a better option for me if I have to protect his feet. That way I will still know what is going on in his bloodstream.


How does this work? (and I'm genuinly interested). I asked my farrier about this, he hadnt heard of this. What does brewers yeast do?
My mare is barefoot (for the last 2yrs), but has always been a bit footy over big stones.
However, since her last farrier visit, she has been better.

"Toxic bacteria" is inaccurate (I'm not sure bacteria can pass through a gut wall, but it's years since my biology A-level), what CPTrayes means is toxins pass through into the bloodstream. Horses are designed to eat "hard" fibre, such as long, tough grasses, gorse and the like plus herbs that would be found on the steppes and desert where they come from. Unlike ruminants (cows, sheep etc.) their digestive systems aren't designed to handle sugar-rich grasses and also struggle to get the right balance of minerals from a single type of grass. As a result, toxins build up in the gut and pass into the bloodstream and an early symptom of this is "footiness". The footiness is hidden in horses with shoes on, unless it becomes full-blown laminitis or similar.

I've just googled this and it comes up with this, a pretty poor article that is very short on scientific references, but it does explain this issue: http://www.horsemanshipnz.com/articles/HealthProblemsLeadtoSRLApril08.pdf (NB: if anyone does have a more scientific paper I'd love to see it, it's the geek in me )

Re: brewer's yeast, it contains some minerals and vitamins (esp. B vitamins) that tend to be deficient in grass and therefore can help to balance a horse's diet and thereby counteract the footiness. Magnesium is a key mineral that most horses are deficient in, so the majority of barefoot horse owners will also supplement with this as well.

 

[maggiesmum]

I'm always amazed that this isn't common knowledge, and I'm not criticising anyone - until I became a fully paid up member of the barefoot brigade I didn't know it either!!

How can Laminitis be so common yet so many people don't realise that its a gut problem and that sore feet are a symptom? Why are vets not explaining this to people? Why is it not part of the laminitis article in every magazine every spring? Someone mentioned that they'd asked their farrier and he'd never heard of it, why not?

It frustrates me so much that owners are struggling to manage horses without the proper information about exactly how the problem occurs, knowledge is power and all that!!

Just to re-iterate, i'm not criticising anyone who didn't / doesn't know this, there is no such thing as a bad student only a bad teacher!!

 

[kickonchaps]

However although initially booking a next appointment he cried off saying he didn't want to get hurt (ahh diddums).

Seriously?! If your horse kicked him and he broke his shoulder that's several weeks of earning a wage he's missed out on! If that's your attitude to him trying to protect his livelihood I'm not surprised no one wants to shoe your horse!

OP I don't know what to suggest for your horses but just wanted to say I admire your honesty, I know you've been accused in the past of refusing to accept that not all horses cope brilliantly with barefoot, so it's good to hear you say that it's not all plain sailing. I'm sure it's reassuring for other people in the same situation to know that even the experienced barefooters hit problems!

 

[chestnut cob]

CPTrayes - I have struggled to get my boy to eat the current CM Brewers Yeast and the easiest way I found was to stir lots of chopped fresh mint into his feed. But...I've got that growing in the garden so it's cheap but not ideal if you have to buy it from the supermarket. Worth a try

 

[criso]

Cptrayes
On the latest price list from Equimins that I have, Brewer's Yeast has now been added at £2.60 per kilo. Not as cheap as Charnwood but not bad and you can order a small amount to see if your horses will eat it.
I think postage isn't cheap though unless you order £25 worth of stuff in which case it's free.

 

[Dizzle]

Could someone explain a bit more about the feeding of charcol to me please? I feed mag-ox (as it's in his calmer) and noticed that if I added extra mag ox he got spookier!

What supplements should I be feeding?

 

[cptrayes]

Nothing helpful to say but would you mind explaining a bit more about diet and how it's managed? Interested in barefoot but don't really understand the diet in relation to it. Also it sounds difficult to maintain if you are restricted in management, as in if you are at a livery yard?

Lots of barefoot horses have to have their sugar/carbohydrate intake restricted to stop them from feeling stones. Lots don't. It can be difficult in a livery yard if you have a sensitive one.

So she has had her current shoes on for 12 weeks and is desperate. I'm thinking that prehaps
barefoot is the way to go but it will have to be now?

Thoughts?

Do it now but don't expect to hack out up stony tracks or gritty roads.

Also. A quick question to the OP please.
You mentioned about the footiness being due to gut bacteria leaking into the bloodstream.
I have never heard of this, is this in every horse or only those on high grain diets?
Im genuinely interested to learn more.
Kx

I think this has been answered better than by me, though my understanding was that staphylococcus bovi actually jumped the gut wall, perhaps it is just the toxin. Either way, this is early laminitis.

Funny you should say that CPT, M was footy yesterday and it directly correlates with a friend forgetting to pop his muzzle on... grass!

By any chance, are you detoxing periodically? I find this really helps as soon after he is striding out on every surface. I use Trinity Consultants L94.

I'll check this out, thanks.

But its always interesting to learn more, and I was wondering what do you feed Brewers Yeast for? What does it do? And ditto to the charcoal?

The BY is for chromium and B vitamins. The charcoal is to soak up toxins in the gut to stop them getting into the bloodstream. It's what's in your water filter jug if you have one. It is working exceptionally well on my known laminitic risk, I have seen day after day changes in his way of moving and the quality of his poo!

have you tried or could you consider the paddock paradise system - i'm a great believer in it - worked well with my mare when she was barefoot and i'd much rather see a horse moving than restricted

I'd love to do it, but I live in a National Park and I would be reported if I set up a track. Change of use for land for a horse track will not be granted, particularly as the peaty ground would require me to make a hardcore "road" track in full view of multiple footpaths

Could you bear to have front shoes on? If not then boots I think combined with the muzzle will work very well for you.

Will be interested to hear what happens.

I would take him off grass completely before I would shoe. Thankfully I am at home and so is he, so exercise is not a problem and he can live in a big barn and adjoining small outdoor pen with his lami risk mate, so not be too reStricted.

OP I had to think hard for this one since you'd already answered your own question and are clearly annoyed with happy posters.
I know shod horses who can't cope with flinty ground, it's not always due to their feet, sadly. Just a thought.

I am annoyed by people who post saying how wonderful what they do is, as I do, but fail to tell people when it is not so wonderful. As someone who has repeatedly, only yesterday being the last time, told people my horses can march across stones all year round, I feel I owe it to people to tell them that things have changed. I apologise if that upsets you in some way.

If a shod horse cannot cope with flinty ground, what on earth ELSE can it be but their feet??????? Uneven ground can be joints, but flat but flinty has to be feet, surely?

CPT - have you tried a different supplier for your brewer's yeast? )

The situation with brewer's yeast is that it is increasingly being bought as an animal feed, to subsitute for grains which are getting very expensive because the US insists on making more and more bioethanol out of them. The supply is, I think, going to vary wildy in quality from now on, depending on what is available. I am very unhappy about variations in supply and would prefer to source an alternative which is consistent. I am trying haylage balancer with yea-sacc in it at the moment.

Because this "footiness" is caused by gut bacteria leaking into the bloodstream, and they will stay there affecting the horse even if I put shoes on and stop it showing. Boots are a better option for me if I have to protect his feet. That way I will still know what is going on in his bloodstream.


How does this work? (and I'm genuinly interested). I asked my farrier about this, he hadnt heard of this.

Heaven help everyone dependant on farriers like this!! Your farrier does not know the basic mechanism of laminitis or its early symptoms. He should go back to farrier school for a refresher.

If it's the natural way, then horses should be able to cope with being barefoot without endless human intervention.

Most of them can. I have two who can and two who can't. And even then, "intervention" is usally only keeping them in during the day, an age old way of keeping horses.

I suspect, as others have said on this thread, that horses have changed so much evolution-wise that in most cases true barefootedness is not achievable?

I think it is more the case that horses are still too true to their original evolution, which was to eat scrub. We give them fresh grass in quantities that they are not designed to cope with, and it goes to their feet. Then we needed to invent shoes to counteract the foot sensitivity.

I'm sorry to hear of cptrayes' problems, and it's wretched when you don't know quite what's amiss, but with the list of things you seem to have to do to keep a barefoot sound, I don't think I'll be converting yet.

I have to keep him off the grass some of the time and feed him a low sugar, balanced diet that he was evolved to eat. Is that too much to ask? Not for me.

CPTrayes - I have struggled to get my boy to eat the current CM Brewers Yeast and the easiest way I found was to stir lots of chopped fresh mint into his feed. But...I've got that growing in the garden so it's cheap but not ideal if you have to buy it from the supermarket. Worth a try

Thanks for the tip

Could someone explain a bit more about the feeding of charcoal to me please? I feed mag-ox (as it's in his calmer) and noticed that if I added extra mag ox he got spookier!

What supplements should I be feeding?

See above for the activated charcoal. Ref the calmer, maybe he was quiet because he had achey feet, and you fed him MgO and his feet stopped aching and he's skipping about with joy??? You should be feeding a balanced low sugar high fibre diet. If in doubt about mineral balances, which can be crucial especially if you are high in manganese and/or iron, get your hay and grazing tested.





Thanks for the suggestions folks. I've been on a muzzle buying spree, put all my horses on the charcoal because the third started cow-patting this morning, and we'll see how things go. I'm sure now that it's the grass quality. What I'm not sure of is how much, if at all, lack of BY has affected their ability to cope with it. A few days in muzzles will tell.

 

[Fransurrey]

On Brewer's Yeast: I complained about the quality of it to CM and actually got my money back. They apparently have switched back to their previous supplier, now, so ask them for a new batch sample - they sent me one and it looks better, but still not as 'yeasty' as the initial batch I had. The 'bad' one for me was contaminated and smelt VERY peppery (tasted it, too - yes, I did...) and I didn't even feed it to my mare - I can do without further activation of her immune system!

Brewer's Yeast (extract) acts in two ways - it lowers pro-inflammatory cytokines (particularly IL-8 for fellow scientists!) and increases anti-inflammatory ones (IL-10?). Secondly it prevents bacteria from binding to the gut wall (epithelium).

Bacteria don't generally through gut walls (when they do you get peritonitis or worse, so lami would be the least of your troubles!), but their toxins can. The permeability of the wall is affected by inflammatory pathways and consequential breakdown in the integrity of protein-protein interactions (which bind the cells together), hence the beneficial action of feeding BY.

 

[Dirtymare]

"Toxic bacteria" is inaccurate (I'm not sure bacteria can pass through a gut wall, but it's years since my biology A-level), what CPTrayes means is toxins pass through into the bloodstream. Horses are designed to eat "hard" fibre, such as long, tough grasses, gorse and the like plus herbs that would be found on the steppes and desert where they come from. Unlike ruminants (cows, sheep etc.) their digestive systems aren't designed to handle sugar-rich grasses and also struggle to get the right balance of minerals from a single type of grass. As a result, toxins build up in the gut and pass into the bloodstream and an early symptom of this is "footiness". The footiness is hidden in horses with shoes on, unless it becomes full-blown laminitis or similar.

I've just googled this and it comes up with this, a pretty poor article that is very short on scientific references, but it does explain this issue: http://www.horsemanshipnz.com/articles/HealthProblemsLeadtoSRLApril08.pdf (NB: if anyone does have a more scientific paper I'd love to see it, it's the geek in me )

Re: brewer's yeast, it contains some minerals and vitamins (esp. B vitamins) that tend to be deficient in grass and therefore can help to balance a horse's diet and thereby counteract the footiness. Magnesium is a key mineral that most horses are deficient in, so the majority of barefoot horse owners will also supplement with this as well.

Thanks for that. Thats really helpful.

 

[cptrayes]

On Brewer's Yeast: I complained about the quality of it to CM and actually got my money back. They apparently have switched back to their previous supplier, now, so ask them for a new batch sample - they sent me one and it looks better, but still not as 'yeasty' as the initial batch I had. The 'bad' one for me was contaminated and smelt VERY peppery (tasted it, too - yes, I did...) and I didn't even feed it to my mare - I can do without further activation of her immune system!

Brewer's Yeast (extract) acts in two ways - it lowers pro-inflammatory cytokines (particularly IL-8 for fellow scientists!) and increases anti-inflammatory ones (IL-10?). Secondly it prevents bacteria from binding to the gut wall (epithelium).

Bacteria don't generally through gut walls (when they do you get peritonitis or worse, so lami would be the least of your troubles!), but their toxins can. The permeability of the wall is affected by inflammatory pathways and consequential breakdown in the integrity of protein-protein interactions (which bind the cells together), hence the beneficial action of feeding BY.

Brilliant, now I can see why stopping the BY has had an effect. They have been without for four weeks, and this has coincided, worst luck, with a sudden 10 degree temperature rise and alternating rain and bright sunshine. The combination couldn't be worse!

To your knowledge, Fran, will live yeast yea-sacc (which tests extremely well in cows for milk yields) perform the same functions in time as the get gets used to the changeover??? Or does it have to have been used to brew beer ?

Charnwood also made me a refund but the new stuff is German, the good stuff was Polish and I am very concerned about continuity of future supply, given that the US has just announced that its "gas", petrol, will contain 40% bioethanol in future. The grain used to make that grain won't be exported to the UK for animal feed and more BY will be used instead, leaving those of us wanting one sack, rather than ten tonnes, where???

 

[marmalade76]

On Brewer's Yeast: I complained about the quality of it to CM and actually got my money back. They apparently have switched back to their previous supplier, now, so ask them for a new batch sample - they sent me one and it looks better, but still not as 'yeasty' as the initial batch I had. The 'bad' one for me was contaminated and smelt VERY peppery.....

My last lot from Natural Horse Supplies was peppery too, and my ponies did not like it. I emailed a complaint and was offered a refund but it never appeared.

 

[Dirtymare]

"Heaven help everyone dependant on farriers like this!! Your farrier does not know the basic mechanism of laminitis or its early symptoms. He should go back to farrier school for a refresher."



A bit harsh that comment I think. My farrier is a damn good farrier and very knowledgable.

As I said, I was genuinly interested in what you meant by toxins "leaking" from the stomach as I have heard this before and was flummoxed as to what this meant.

Do you have some sort of qualification on barefoot trimming and care or are you a vet?

 

[j1ffy]

Brewer's Yeast (extract) acts in two ways - it lowers pro-inflammatory cytokines (particularly IL-8 for fellow scientists!) and increases anti-inflammatory ones (IL-10?). Secondly it prevents bacteria from binding to the gut wall (epithelium).

Bacteria don't generally through gut walls (when they do you get peritonitis or worse, so lami would be the least of your troubles!), but their toxins can. The permeability of the wall is affected by inflammatory pathways and consequential breakdown in the integrity of protein-protein interactions (which bind the cells together), hence the beneficial action of feeding BY.

Fascinating -thanks Fransurrey!

 

[cptrayes]

"Heaven help everyone dependant on farriers like this!! Your farrier does not know the basic mechanism of laminitis or its early symptoms. He should go back to farrier school for a refresher."



A bit harsh that comment I think. My farrier is a damn good farrier and very knowledgable.

As I said, I was genuinly interested in what you meant by toxins "leaking" from the stomach as I have heard this before and was flummoxed as to what this meant.

Do you have some sort of qualification on barefoot trimming and care or are you a vet?

I am neither a vet nor a qualified trimmer. So if, as you stated, your farrier has "never heard" of laminitis being a disease which originates with bacteria/toxins leaking into the bloodstream from the gut then how come I and many other laymen do? Far from harsh to suggest he should have known that, as a footcare professional with 4 years training, surely?

 

[cptrayes]

mistake

 

[TicTac]

My horses are shod. I used to have a mild interest in perhaps having them go barefoot (finance mainly!) but the more I hear, the more I think "No."

Mine are kept very simply - out 24/7, very plain old-fashioned feed, and the only concession to modernity is haylage because one is RAO. They have no supplements to their feed (charcoal, brewers yeast etc etc.) The farrier comes regularly every six weeks. The horses (touch wood) are never lame or 'footy' and none have ever worn a boot in their lives.

If it's the natural way, then horses should be able to cope with being barefoot without endless human intervention. I suspect, as others have said on this thread, that horses have changed so much evolution-wise that in most cases true barefootedness is not achievable?

I'm sorry to hear of cptrayes' problems, and it's wretched when you don't know quite what's amiss, but with the list of things you seem to have to do to keep a barefoot sound, I don't think I'll be converting yet.

I suggest you have a look at the Rockley Farm website!

http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Home.html

 

[cptrayes]

Done a bit more research - streptococcus bovi toxins, not staphyloccus. Gosh, doesn't that make more sense Did it matter? Not a lot but I don't like leaving it uncorrected in case someone corrects me later

 

[Natch]

To those wondering about their shoeless/barefoot horse's feet - have you had your grass and forage analysed, and are you supplementing the vitamin and minerals to be balanced for your situation?

To the person who can't get the farrier to come to take the shoes off, I'd say at 12 weeks you must be getting desperate, perhaps pay your farrier to come up a couple of times and give the horse treats and make a fuss, or even just be there while you mess around with her feet?

 

[tallyho!]

"Heaven help everyone dependant on farriers like this!! Your farrier does not know the basic mechanism of laminitis or its early symptoms. He should go back to farrier school for a refresher."



A bit harsh that comment I think. My farrier is a damn good farrier and very knowledgable.

As I said, I was genuinly interested in what you meant by toxins "leaking" from the stomach as I have heard this before and was flummoxed as to what this meant.

Do you have some sort of qualification on barefoot trimming and care or are you a vet?

It's really worrying when someone who is supposed to be the 'be all and end all' about hooves struggles to understand/explain what is possibly the horses worst affliction...

 

[Oberon]

If BY is a bi product of beer making then I suggest Cptrayes takes one for the team (as in, we Barefoot Taliban) and starts making le beer pronto.....

That way we could all have a steady supply of BY that the Yanks can't get their mits on...

Get your barrels out girl

Hopefully Yea-sacc will be a good alternative. I find good results with it.

I get it from Ross and Mel Barker via eBay.

 

[Fellewell]

"I am annoyed by people who post saying how wonderful what they do is, as I do, but fail to tell people when it is not so wonderful. As someone who has repeatedly, only yesterday being the last time, told people my horses can march across stones all year round, I feel I owe it to people to tell them that things have changed. I apologise if that upsets you in some way.

If a shod horse cannot cope with flinty ground, what on earth ELSE can it be but their feet??????? Uneven ground can be joints, but flat but flinty has to be feet, surely?" (Quote from CPT)

I've been upset since I saw the Swedish Hoof School video even though my farrier assured me that there was probably an underlying condition and not just because shod. So I do read your posts as I am genuinely interested even though mine are shod.
Any number of changes can afflict a shod horse on flinty/uneven ground as I'm sure you know, most below the knee/hock, not always feet

 

[cptrayes]

"If a shod horse cannot cope with flinty ground, what on earth ELSE can it be but their feet??????? Uneven ground can be joints, but flat but flinty has to be feet, surely?" (Quote from CPT)

I've been upset since I saw the Swedish Hoof School video even though my farrier assured me that there was probably an underlying condition and not just because shod. So I do read your posts as I am genuinely interested even though mine are shod.
Any number of changes can afflict a shod horse on flinty/uneven ground as I'm sure you know, most below the knee/hock, not always feet

As I said, uneven ground can obviously be joints, but flints on level ground has to be the feet, shod or not. I don't know the video you mention, I don't tend to follow "schools" I just listen to my horses. Unfortunately they are screaming loud and clear that they are missing the anti-inflammatory action of brewer's yeast!

Oberon I know you are joking, but I did find a source fresh brewers yeast from a local micro-brewery. I'm afraid to use it in case it won't keep and goes off, isn't safe unless it's dried , or that I'll feed it in the wrong quantity

 

[Oberon]

Somehow I KNEW you'd have explored the option

 

[chestnut cob]

Charnwood also made me a refund but the new stuff is German, the good stuff was Polish and I am very concerned about continuity of future supply, given that the US has just announced that its "gas", petrol, will contain 40% bioethanol in future. The grain used to make that grain won't be exported to the UK for animal feed and more BY will be used instead, leaving those of us wanting one sack, rather than ten tonnes, where???

CPT - did you ever get your new BY from Charnwood? I'm still waiting for mine to be replaced...2 weeks after they promised it would be. Horse is eating it but the posts I keep reading about the quality of it do concern me...

 

[chestnut cob]

On Brewer's Yeast: I complained about the quality of it to CM and actually got my money back. They apparently have switched back to their previous supplier, now, so ask them for a new batch sample - they sent me one and it looks better, but still not as 'yeasty' as the initial batch I had. The 'bad' one for me was contaminated and smelt VERY peppery (tasted it, too - yes, I did...) and I didn't even feed it to my mare - I can do without further activation of her immune system!
.

I spoke to Charnwood about the peppery BY (which is the type I have) and they said it certified as BY. The contact I spoke to emailed me the certificate over so apparently it IS the right stuff, just from a different supplier...

 

[criso]

I spoke to Charnwood about the peppery BY (which is the type I have) and they said it certified as BY. The contact I spoke to emailed me the certificate over so apparently it IS the right stuff, just from a different supplier...

I ended up with the peppery stuff as my YM gets in the feed from a local shop, who gets it from the big local feed place who get it from charnwood so even though it only arrived at the weekend, it is the old stuff.

I emailed them this morning about the quality as my horse is actually eating it and they said it had been overcooked but this had not affected the nutritional quality but just the taste.

 

[cptrayes]

It didn't arrive, and I got a message from someone saying that they had some but that their horses wouldn't eat that either. I realised then that I was never going to be able to trust the future supply of BY, so I asked for a refund and they did one in double quick time. I can't fault their service.

It is brewers yeast, made, I think, from a sour beer (one that has had bugs put in it like a mouldy cheese or a soured cream). It's no good if it's got all the right attributes and horses won't eat it though, is it? I did train two of mine to eat it, but they made terrible faces all the time and clearly absolutely hated it and I couldn't force them to have it day after day for months or years

If your horse will eat it, you may be OK, but I do worry about the fact that it is not in a plastic lined sack, and how long it will stay right, or even if it is right when it arrives, as it does smell, to me, (and clearly to my boys) pretty nasty.

Criso I think you have the German lager stuff, which apparently smells a little burnt. The Czech stuff is what smells really nasty.

 

[JenHunt]

have any of you called Graven Horse Feeds, or I'Ansons, or Jamesons of Masham?

Graven may not be able to help, but John is a very nice chap and may be able to point you in the direction of someone who can help

I'Ansons and Jamesons are both quite big merchants for dairy feed, but they may also be able to help you guys out!

otherwise... can you use a sugar free apple cordial to disguise the taste?

 

[spookypony]

The grass is pretty crazy this year! I started putting my pony in pony-jail during the daytime in April, after a brief, aborted attempt at muzzling (we still haven't found all the constituent bits of the muzzle... ). Despite this, his circumference at the beginning of last week was alarming, and there were a few days of slight footiness over sharp stones (I put boots on, and his group was moved into a less grassy field; he's fine now). Thankfully, others on the yard have now become concerned about the grass, so now he has some company, and can stay in pony-jail over night as well. Within 24 hours, he had deflated a whole girth-hole! Alarming!

I'm very interested in the activated charcoal/brewer's yeast...at the moment, he just gets a general vit/min supplement with some MagOx, but I'd like to learn in more detail...what quantities of various additives do you feed, and why, and where do you source it? I'm on a livery yard as well, so not sure how feasible pasture analysis is?