The truth, the whole truth - barefoot footiness

So glad I read this (though getting tired and eyes are drooping now lol).

I have four, and they're currently all barefoot.

Eight year old Trad cob never been shod in his life. Feet like rocks.
X year old Welsh cross thats had laminitis, and is now query Cushings, not had shoes on for about two years.
They're both fine in the field. It's stony from the field to the stable, so will watch them both closely tomorrow as to how they move over it.

Seven year old DWB, was shod, but been barefoot since January. Shes fine for the farrier, except when the nails go in. Hates it. Doesn't get dangerous, just very annoying for the farrier as she waves he legs around in protest. When shod she also slips on the road on hills, no matter how many road pins I have put in, but barefoot and theres no slipping. Was a bit footy on the stony drive though on the front.
Twelve year old IDxTB. Currently barefoot, just because she is. Doesn't seem to need shoes at the moment. Never footy, even in the places that the DWB was.

I haven't added anything to their feeds for their feet. It would bore you silly if I put all their different feeds, but the list is (they don't all get each one!): Saracens - Equijewel, Releave, ShapeUp, Speedibeat. Milk Thistle. Glycosemine(sp!). Multi-vitamins (can't remember the name). Adlib access to salt licks.

Will look into adding BY.

They are all out 24/7/365, apart from odd hours in for a rest from flies/sun. Two different yards with different grazing, but neither lush.

I can't see myself going back to shoes, though if one of them seems to need them then that's what he or she will have. I think I'd try boots first though.

Sorry OP, I've wobbled off course a bit. Thank you for telling us how it is for you. I have worried about the DWB's footiness and wondered if I would have to go back to shoes on the front at least, but now I know to try harder to get their diets right first :)
 
cptrayes said:
Criso I think you have the German lager stuff, which apparently smells a little burnt. The Czech stuff is what smells really nasty.
Click to expand...

Maybe - it's not a fine powder but almost like linseed but a bit finer. Smells peppery/slightly spicy but I wouldn't say unpleasant.

My friend's horse won't eat it but he's really fussy, mine will but is spectacularly unfussy, this is the horse who ate several pound coins, the toggle from someone's jacket and had to have a Nokia X6 forcibly removed from his mouth so you can't really trust his judgement.

I'll check the bag tomorrow, I was running so late tonight after work and didn't look but I should be able to work out if the writing is german or czech or other?
 
Cassiethecob said:
The real reason I joined this forum (before I got sidetracked) was to discuss going barefoot mainly because my mare pathologically hates the farrier and indeed we have been un able to find one who isn't scared of her. I bought her at a sale with a brand new set of shoes on (learn from that folks!) so it never occured to me that she couldn't be shod. Knowing what I now know I suspect that was her first ever set (at 12yrs). Interestingly the man who brought her home for me was fascinated by her shoes and was convinced they hadn't been put on by a qualified person.

The first farrier to come out was one I had used before on the horse I had on loan because her owner insisted, seemed like a nice chap when the going was easy. Well she was having none of it, what she does is snatches her foot back and swings her back end around, she doesn't kick or rear. So of course he belted her (as they do see other threads) and although he did get a set of shoes on her that was one farrier down. It was impossible to get another farrier the minute you say the horse isn't good at being shod they either say no or worse book an appointment and dont turn up. So the next time I booked an un suspecting one but also had my vet there to sedate her, and it all went swimmingly with no stress to all of us, (my vet is a horse owner). However although initially booking a next appointment he cried off saying he didn't want to get hurt (ahh diddums).

I contacted the CWF for their help and they said they couldn't help but my vet could shoe if he wanted (he doesn't want bless him!). So she has had her current shoes on for 12 weeks and is desperate. I'm thinking that prehaps
barefoot is the way to go but it will have to be now?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Sorry I don't understand the problem - why wouldn't you just have her sedated again for shoeing/farrier?
You make light of the farrier not wanting to get injured - well get real girl - this is their living and they can't afford to lose their livelihood over a horse who has clearly never been properly accustomed to being shod. That leaves you with the responsibility and problem.

I have a horse that was really aggressive - it has taken 6 months od hard work and perseverence on my part for him to actually trust and change. Would I have risked my vet or dentist's health to try and treat him - no I wouldn't that would totally irresponsible. Sorry but your 'ah didums' comment is unjustified!! Put the time in with your horse - get a hammer and play with it's feet. Once you can safely bang it on the foot with a hammer etc then call the farrier.
 
criso said:
My friend's horse won't eat it but he's really fussy, mine will but is spectacularly unfussy, this is the horse who ate several pound coins, the toggle from someone's jacket and had to have a Nokia X6 forcibly removed from his mouth so you can't really trust his judgement.
Click to expand...

PMSL
LMSO
FOMCL

:-)))


There's no writing on the Czech stuff and it is a white sack with no plastic liner. The stuff is a dull brown, not nearly as fine as the Polish stuff they used to supply.
 
cptrayes said:
To your knowledge, Fran, will live yeast yea-sacc (which tests extremely well in cows for milk yields) perform the same functions in time as the get gets used to the changeover??? Or does it have to have been used to brew beer :) ?

Charnwood also made me a refund but the new stuff is German, the good stuff was Polish and I am very concerned about continuity of future supply, given that the US has just announced that its "gas", petrol, will contain 40% bioethanol in future. The grain used to make that grain won't be exported to the UK for animal feed and more BY will be used instead, leaving those of us wanting one sack, rather than ten tonnes, where???
Click to expand...

Can't say specifically about Yeasacc, but a study on S.boulardii (another non-pathogenic yeast) compared the yeast itself with extract and both had a beneficial effect (I think it was with regards to S.typhimurium infection, but don't quote me on that).

I was told that the new stuff was Czech! The new sample allegedly was back to the Polish supply, but it still had the consistency of the bad batch, without the dodgy smell. So, I dunno what to do. I've been feeding haylage balancer, like you (or was it someone else?!?) plus Veteran Vitality (Allan and page) which also contains Yea-sacc. Seems to be ok so far!
 
chestnut cob said:
I spoke to Charnwood about the peppery BY (which is the type I have) and they said it certified as BY. The contact I spoke to emailed me the certificate over so apparently it IS the right stuff, just from a different supplier...
Click to expand...

Just to comment on this. I spoke to them, too. They use certain criteria (can't remember all of them, but protein content was one), but no techniques that I would use to identify proteins (I'm a Biochemist). However, mine had birdseed in it, which was definite contamination, regardless of the presence of BY. I asked if any mass spec or other definitive analysis was done and it wasn't. Fair dos to them though, they refunded and took heed of all the complaints and found an alternative source! :)
 
As i would consider myself a 'shoer' I tend to skim over the barefoot threads, but this one is so educational! I didn't realise there was such a science to it all with toxins and supplements etc :confused: Thoroughly enjoyable and education thread.

My Sec A is barefoot (or unshod as I would say) as my farrier says 'he has cracking feet' my WB who was unshod behind when he came and really struggled- which quickly turned into knapping etc on our stoney forest paths. I had him shod all around at my farriers advise and is so much happier for it :D
 
I have no strong opinion on this subject, however both my old horse and new pony are barefoot simply because my farrier says they are not needed. He says he will honestly tell me if shoes are needed.

So until that day I will save my pennies and stay barefoot :)
 
cptrayes said:
It is brewers yeast, made, I think, from a sour beer (one that has had bugs put in it like a mouldy cheese or a soured cream). It's no good if it's got all the right attributes and horses won't eat it though, is it?
Click to expand...

That's what Charnwood said to me... it came from a sour brewing process. They also agreed it was no good if the horses won't eat it, though they told me the nutritional content is the same as their normal supply.

If your horse will eat it, you may be OK, but I do worry about the fact that it is not in a plastic lined sack, and how long it will stay right, or even if it is right when it arrives, as it does smell, to me, (and clearly to my boys) pretty nasty.
Click to expand...

Yes, he's eating it now though he needs tempting with mint and/or various bits of veg. Despite the funny colour etc, I did notice that within about 3 days of putting him on it (the "bad" stuff), his big gassy belly disappeared and hasn't returned so I'm assuming it is doing some good.
 
Fransurrey said:
Just to comment on this. I spoke to them, too. They use certain criteria (can't remember all of them, but protein content was one), but no techniques that I would use to identify proteins (I'm a Biochemist). However, mine had birdseed in it, which was definite contamination, regardless of the presence of BY. I asked if any mass spec or other definitive analysis was done and it wasn't. Fair dos to them though, they refunded and took heed of all the complaints and found an alternative source! :)
Click to expand...

I might be able to see if I can get MS run on my BY at work... I'll investigate next time I'm in the office!

I haven't had a refund from Charnwood and my alternative stuff never turned up either... maybe I need to do some chasing.
 
Hi Chestnut Cob,

I had to chase them, too, but got the refund instantly after that. They said someone had been away for a while and I think some things were forgotten or de-prioritised. They were very apologetic. :)

The replacement I received was a sample of their new batch. I would send them an email and ask if they would send you a new sample. Judging by comments on here, they've received quite a few complaints and given their normally good service, I think it's worth chasing up.
 
cptrayes said:
As I said, uneven ground can obviously be joints, but flints on level ground has to be the feet, shod or not. I don't know the video you mention, I don't tend to follow "schools" I just listen to my horses. Unfortunately they are screaming loud and clear that they are missing the anti-inflammatory action of brewer's yeast!

Oberon I know you are joking, but I did find a source fresh brewers yeast from a local micro-brewery. I'm afraid to use it in case it won't keep and goes off, isn't safe unless it's dried , or that I'll feed it in the wrong quantity :(
Click to expand...

Firstly, bravo for posting your problems.

Just have to point out that BY is not anti-inflammatory but is probiotic. It is the probiotic effect that helps to prevent the gut wall becoming 'leaky' and the toxins escaping into the bloodtream. You should get the same effect from Yeasac but would probably have to feed less yeasac than BY. An even more efficient probiotic is Biosaf which was developed by Derek Cuddeford, tests showed that this was up to 50% more effective than other probiotics, so even though it is more expensive, you would feed significantly less and could also dispense with the charcoal.

For those that are not aware (not aimed at you OP), in layman's terms, the horse has a very small foregut, it is the foregut that digests proteins and carbohydrates, once these are digested the food is passed to the hindgut which is designed to digest fibres et al. Problems occur when there is an overload of carbohydrates into the hindgut, which simply cannot cope, the good bacteria start to die off and the gut becomes 'leaky', this can cause numerous problems, one of which is 'footyness' or full blown laminitis.

Problems also occur through lush grass or if, as in the case this year, grass becomes 'stressed' through drought or freezing, this explains why people find their horses becoming 'footy' in the middle of December or on dry almost bare paddocks.

In defence of the farrier who had not heard of this, he is not a nutritionist, he deals with the mechanics rather than the cause, although he should know how to deal with laminitis after is has occurred. Neither is a vet a nutritionist (unless like Derek Cuddeford he has specialised in nutrition), they only do hours on nutrition rather than the years a nutritionist will spend studying, it is not surprising that they sometimes get it wrong (some vets still advocate 'starving' a laminitic pony).

I could go on as to why Biosaf is more effective but I don't want to bore you all :o
 
Amaranta said:
In defence of the farrier who had not heard of this, he is not a nutritionist, he deals with the mechanics rather than the cause, although he should know how to deal with laminitis after is has occurred. Neither is a vet a nutritionist (unless like Derek Cuddeford he has specialised in nutrition), they only do hours on nutrition rather than the years a nutritionist will spend studying, it is not surprising that they sometimes get it wrong (some vets still advocate 'starving' a laminitic pony).
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. I find it incredibly upsetting on this forum when "knowledgable" people shoot others down in flames who are genuinely interested in finding out more and gaining knowledge on how to care better for their beloved steeds, only to be made a fool of by the knowledgeable" person and others.
 
CassieCob, with the horse who's had shoes on for 12 weeks - if they are still on!

Try posting on Kelly Marks's forum for an Equine Podiatrist and/or Recommended Associate in your area. A lot of EPs have had behavioural training so that they can work effectively with difficult horses (and they can take shoes off), and RAs have the skills to help you get your horse better for the farrier/EP.

Using a "fake hand" is very useful but you need to get the timing spot on, also it sounds like your horse is OK with you but not with others, an RA will be able to give you strategies for dealing with that. It is very fixable with the right knowledge.

A x
 
Many thanks to those above for the "science bit" - really useful, will bookmark this thread.

I do think that farriers ought to have an awareness of this stuff, at the very least. It does seem to affect a large number of horses' feet, and they are regarded as experts in feet ... mine is shod btw.
 
Amaranta said:
In defence of the farrier who had not heard of this, he is not a nutritionist, he deals with the mechanics rather than the cause, although he should know how to deal with laminitis after is has occurred.
Click to expand...
Dirtymare said:
Thank you for that. I find it incredibly upsetting on this forum when "knowledgable" people shoot others down in flames who are genuinely interested in finding out more and gaining knowledge on how to care better for their beloved steeds, only to be made a fool of by the knowledgeable" person and others.
Click to expand...

If the farrier does not know that footiness is caused by toxins leaking from the gut into the bloodstream due to too much carbohydrate in the hind gut, how can he advise his client to remove a horse or pony from the grass, which is the treatment required?

No-one was made a fool of by anyone. A person reported what their farrier said and were told that they had a farrier who was lacking information that he should have known. That is no reflection of the poster, only of the farrier.

He SHOULD know this as part of his basic training. Perhaps this is why so many three and four year olds are shod when they are "going footie now they have started work", when in reality many of them are going footie because they start work just exactly when the grass comes through in the spring of their third or fourth years. I wonder just how many horses are spending the rest of their lives unnecessarily in shoes because they had a touch of early stage laminitis at three or four.
 
Last edited:
Fransurrey said:
Brewer's Yeast (extract) acts in two ways - it lowers pro-inflammatory cytokines (particularly IL-8 for fellow scientists!) and increases anti-inflammatory ones (IL-10?). Secondly it prevents bacteria from binding to the gut wall (epithelium).

Bacteria don't generally through gut walls (when they do you get peritonitis or worse, so lami would be the least of your troubles!), but their toxins can. The permeability of the wall is affected by inflammatory pathways and consequential breakdown in the integrity of protein-protein interactions (which bind the cells together), hence the beneficial action of feeding BY.
Click to expand...

Amaranta said:
Just have to point out that BY is not anti-inflammatory but is probiotic. It is the probiotic effect that helps to prevent the gut wall becoming 'leaky' and the toxins escaping into the bloodtream.
Click to expand...

YOu can't both be right on this, so could you argue between the two of yourselves and come to an agreement and let us know if BY is, or isn't anti-inflammatory in its effect.

PhD's at dawn, perhaps :) ?

Seriously, I would love to know.
 
cptrayes said:
If the farrier does not know that footiness is caused by toxins leaking from the gut into the bloodstream due to too much carbohydrate in the hind gut, how can he advise his client to remove a horse or pony from the grass, which is the treatment required?

No-one was made a fool of by anyone. A person reported what their farrier said and were told that they had a farrier who was lacking information that he should have known. That is no reflection of the poster, only of the farrier.

He SHOULD know this as part of his basic training. Perhaps this is why so many three and four year olds are shod when they are "going footie now they have started work", when in reality many of them are going footie because they start work just exactly when the grass comes through in the spring of their third or fourth years. I wonder just how many horses are spending the rest of their lives unnecessarily in shoes because they had a touch of early stage laminitis at three or four.
Click to expand...

Most farriers (and owners too) know that lush grass is one cause of laminitis, they also know that carbs and starch are to be avoided, not all cases of laminitis are caused by a leaky hindgut and the research that has been done is relatively new (ie in the last 10 years). Our farriers know how to treat and prevent laminitis, they cannot be expected to know all there is to know about the nutritional side of it, neither can a lot of vets, but they are still the best people to deal with the aftermath.

As for your last paragraph, I am sorry, but I completely and utterly disagree with your views on shoes and laminitis. Some horses can cope without shoes and some become footsore and have to wear them - this DOES NOT mean that those horses that do get 'footy' are all suffering from laminitis and to suggest that they are shows a complete lack of understanding of the illness itself.
 
Without meaning to sound contentious, when you say, "some horses can cope without shoes and some become footsore and have to wear them."

Why do you think that is?
 
Some horses have horn that is too soft, some have horn that is too hard and brittle, in the first case, working without shoes can cause the horn to degenerate very close to the white line, causing pain, likewise the brittle horn can break and cause similar discomfort, neither scenarios mean the horse has clinical laminitis. It is possible to improve horn growth with the correct ratio of vitamins and minerals but not enough to enable the weak/brittle horned horse to work comfortably without shoes. Then of course there are the flat footed horses who just find it impossible to work without shoes and imho, it is bordering on cruelty to insist that these horses work without them.

I actually ride and compete two mares unshod, so I am in no way advocating that all horses should wear shoes, I suppose it is the fact that some people become very blinkered about the whole thing and insist on being barefoot whatever the cost to the animal in terms of pain.
 
But the question I am asking is WHY do some horses have strong feet and some not?

Why are some flat and some not?
 
Oberon said:
But the question I am asking is WHY do some horses have strong feet and some not?

Why are some flat and some not?
Click to expand...

That is like asking how long is a piece of string!

There are several factors, some of which are conformational, some nutritional and some caused by horses not seeing a farrier enough whilst they are growing, though this perhaps could also be classed as conformational.
 
Just to confuse eveyone...

Brewers Yeast and Yea Sacc are both the same yeast.. Saccharomyces cerevisiae

Brewers Yeast is dead and Yea Sacc is alive.

Yea Sacc is a Probiotic (for life - substances that encourage microbes in the gut)

Live Yeast (e.g. Yea Sacc) helps remove the excess sugars and carbs form the hind gut.. reducing gut acidity and therefor the overall health of the horse and notably the hooves.

They also remove oxygen from the gut (which should be anearobic)

Dead Yeast (e.g. brewers yeast) cell wall act as Prebiotics (cannot be digested by the horse itself but feed the gut microbes) and help excrete the un healthy bacteria.

Prebiotics also include FOS and MOS (fructooligosacharides and mannanoligosacharides) and Inulin ... Soluble Fibre in plain english. MOS binds to unhealthy bacteria preventing them from attaching to the gut wall. Yeast cell walls contain MOS.

So basically if your horse needs Brewers Yeast or Yea Sacc on a daily basis they have a acidic gut..

At least that's how I understand it..

I used to feed Brewers Yeast but horse went off it big time.. I was feeding it (as didn't realise the other beneficial effects) as a source of B complex Vits. I assume that as horse no longer wants or eats Brewers Yeast she is getting her B vits elsewhere.

NB I keep a supply of yea sacc to use after worming or other medication like anti biotics which undermine the gut flora.
 
Last edited:
Amaranta said:
As for your last paragraph, I am sorry, but I completely and utterly disagree with your views on shoes and laminitis. Some horses can cope without shoes and some become footsore and have to wear them - this DOES NOT mean that those horses that do get 'footy' are all suffering from laminitis and to suggest that they are shows a complete lack of understanding of the illness itself.
Click to expand...

How interesting that you disagree with a paragraph I did not write.

Nowhere did I say that all footie horses are suffering from laminitis.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top