The truth, the whole truth - barefoot footiness

Amaranta said:
Most farriers (and owners too) know that lush grass is one cause of laminitis, they also know that carbs and starch are to be avoided, not all cases of laminitis are caused by a leaky hindgut and the research that has been done is relatively new (ie in the last 10 years). Our farriers know how to treat and prevent laminitis, they cannot be expected to know all there is to know about the nutritional side of it, neither can a lot of vets, but they are still the best people to deal with the aftermath.
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maybe not ALL cases but the majority of cases are caused by too much spring / rich grass, the body cannot cope with the overload of toxins and they leak into the bloodstream, travel to the feet et voila... laminitis!
This has been known in a very basic form for years - as I said earlier, its amazing that its not common knowledge amongst more horse owners - however its should without a shadow of a doubt be known by vets and farriers, I know plenty of horse owners who trust their farrier implicitly, and their horses feet are his department, yet he's (or her) lacking a vital piece of information - they don't need to know all the scientific details (although it would be nice) so long as they understand the basic notion of how it works!
 
Amaranta said:
Some horses have horn that is too soft, some have horn that is too hard and brittle, in the first case, working without shoes can cause the horn to degenerate very close to the white line, causing pain, likewise the brittle horn can break and cause similar discomfort, neither scenarios mean the horse has clinical laminitis. It is possible to improve horn growth with the correct ratio of vitamins and minerals but not enough to enable the weak/brittle horned horse to work comfortably without shoes. Then of course there are the flat footed horses who just find it impossible to work without shoes and imho, it is bordering on cruelty to insist that these horses work without them.

I actually ride and compete two mares unshod, so I am in no way advocating that all horses should wear shoes, I suppose it is the fact that some people become very blinkered about the whole thing and insist on being barefoot whatever the cost to the animal in terms of pain.
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If the horn degenerates too close to the white line then chances are you don't have the diet right and you're doing too much work on an abrasive surface than that horse can cope with at that moment in time.

If the horn is brittle and breaks off then chances are you don't have the diet right.

If you can't improve horn growth enough to enable the weak/brittle horned horse to work then you haven't got the vitamin and mineral ratio right.

If the horse is flat footed then chances are you don't have the diet right and the feet might not be getting enough stimulation on a conformable surface.

See a pattern....?

I've found (generally speaking, there are other reasons) 3 basic reasons why a horse can't cope without shoes

1. Either the owner can't cope with it, or doesn't have the facilities to be able to offer the horse an suitable environment - it can be very difficult on livery yards.
2. The diet isn't right
3. The horse has an underlying metabolic problem in which case see point 2

The point is that diet is the biggest influence on feet yet is often overlooked.
 
Maggiesmum- whilst i dont disagree with what you have said you have missed one very important reason why some horses cant cope without shoes- genetics and conformation.

I totally agree that diet is very important. The majority of horse owners dont know about basic feeding (In my experience) let alone the finer points of nutrition. However keeping a horse sound is very multifactorial and with the case of genetics and conformation, unchangeable!

Both genetics and conformation will affect hoof quality, growth and shape.

A very interesting thread. Some excellent posts and a good debate! :)
 
teddyt - whilst I agree that conformation and genetics influence hoof quality I think poor conformation can be a reason not to shoe = I have a 6yo horse that has far from perfect front legs, he was broken in and then shod but within a short space of time showed up lame, he was diagnosed with navicular, since having his shoes removed and his diet altered he is much sounder and the more work he does the stronger his feet are becoming.
As he has improved his legs have started to appear straighter but his feet are far from text book, he is a classic case of a horse that needs to grow unconventional looking feet to be comfortable, in this situation fixing his feet into shoes was disastrous, his conformation simply couldn't cope with it.
There are a couple of horses on the rockley farm web site that are the same, they need to grow feet that don't look pretty but that function perfectly for them to stay sound, if these feet are trimmed into a text book shape they become footy / lame.
 
Amaranta said:
Firstly, bravo for posting your problems.

Just have to point out that BY is not anti-inflammatory but is probiotic.
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No disrespect, but I am a researcher in GIDA (Gastro-Intestinal Disease Area) and work alongside internationally reknowned scientists in the area. The role of microbiota in the gut is a hot topic, right now and there are numerous groups around the world studying the interactions of microbiota witth the gut, with respect to mucositis (my own project), IBS, Crohns, Ulcerative Colitis and Bacterial Infections (Cholera is researched here, but many other pathogens are being studied, too).

Probiotic definition: a microorganism thought to be beneficial to the host organism. The MECHANISM of action is the anti-inflammatory and adhesion properties, as mentioned previously.

References (No.4 is freely available!):
The effect of Saccharomyces boulardii on reducing irinotecan-induced intestinal mucositis and diarrhea.

Sezer A, Usta U, Cicin I.

Med Oncol. 2009;26(3):350-7. Epub 2008 Dec 9.


2.Clinical utility of probiotics in inflammatory bowel disease.

Cain AM, Karpa KD.

Altern Ther Health Med. 2011 Jan-Feb;17(1):72-9. Review.


3.Protection against increased intestinal permeability and bacterial translocation induced by intestinal obstruction in mice treated with viable and heat-killed Saccharomyces boulardii.

Generoso SV, Viana ML, Santos RG, Arantes RM, Martins FS, Nicoli JR, Machado JA, Correia MI, Cardoso VN.

Eur J Nutr. 2011 Jun;50(4):261-9. Epub 2010 Oct 10.


4.Probiotics and Gastrointestinal Disease: Clinical Evidence and Basic Science.

Petrof EO.

Antiinflamm Antiallergy Agents Med Chem. 2009 Sep 1;8(3):260-269.

PMID:20890386[PubMed] Free PMC Article

5.[Saccharomyces boulardii modulates dendritic cell properties and intestinal microbiota disruption after antibiotic treatment].

Collignon A, Sandré C, Barc MC.

Gastroenterol Clin Biol. 2010 Sep;34 Suppl 1:S71-8. French.


6.Interaction of Saccharomyces boulardii with intestinal brush border membranes: key to probiotic effects?

Buts JP, De Keyser N.

J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr. 2010 Oct;51(4):532-3. Review.

ETA: Apologies for it all being S.boulardii. This is the one I'm personally interested in and is the one most extensively studied, on account of it's initial link with Cholera (it was discovered by Henri Boulardii).
 
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What an interesting debate on what brewers yeast is - the language is pitched about 1-2 inches above my head but I'm trying to keep up! :D

So, is brewers yeast a prebiotic then - i.e. the one that feeds and encourages the good bacteria, but isn't the actual bacteria itself? (ok, maybe the previous conversation was one or two FEET above my head :p ) In which case, in layman's terms, it encourages the health of the bacteria in the hindgut, which in turn means they cope with starch overload better, don't die as much and therefore there's less endotoxaemia, meaning less vasoactive amines & MMP floating around.

How am I doing? :o
 
All of ours were barefoot until VERY recently.
We always took shoes off at the beginning of October and yes they went footy. They weren't lame just a little sore, a couple of weeks and they get over it.

It was a really sad occasion for us recently. D had his shoes off 5 years ago as his feet were a bad shape, recently we discovered that D had bad joint problems so he now has had to have all-singing-all-dancing special shoes put on, our farrier was nearly in tears having to basically ruin 5 years worth of work on his feet :/
 
Naturally said:
What an interesting debate on what brewers yeast is - the language is pitched about 1-2 inches above my head but I'm trying to keep up! :D

So, is brewers yeast a prebiotic then - i.e. the one that feeds and encourages the good bacteria, but isn't the actual bacteria itself? (ok, maybe the previous conversation was one or two FEET above my head :p ) In which case, in layman's terms, it encourages the health of the bacteria in the hindgut, which in turn means they cope with starch overload better, don't die as much and therefore there's less endotoxaemia, meaning less vasoactive amines & MMP floating around.

How am I doing? :o
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Thats pretty much where I was!
 
Fransurrey said:
No disrespect, but I am a researcher in GIDA (Gastro-Intestinal Disease Area) and work alongside internationally reknowned scientists in the area. The role of microbiota in the gut is a hot topic, right now and there are numerous groups around the world studying the interactions of microbiota witth the gut, with respect to mucositis (my own project), IBS, Crohns, Ulcerative Colitis and Bacterial Infections (Cholera is researched here, but many other pathogens are being studied, too).

Probiotic definition: a microorganism thought to be beneficial to the host organism. The MECHANISM of action is the anti-inflammatory and adhesion properties, as mentioned previously.

References (No.4 is freely available!):
The effect of Saccharomyces boulardii on reducing irinotecan-induced intestinal mucositis and diarrhea.

Sezer A, Usta U, Cicin I.

Med Oncol. 2009;26(3):350-7. Epub 2008 Dec 9.


2.Clinical utility of probiotics in inflammatory bowel disease.

Cain AM, Karpa KD.

Altern Ther Health Med. 2011 Jan-Feb;17(1):72-9. Review.


3.Protection against increased intestinal permeability and bacterial translocation induced by intestinal obstruction in mice treated with viable and heat-killed Saccharomyces boulardii.

Generoso SV, Viana ML, Santos RG, Arantes RM, Martins FS, Nicoli JR, Machado JA, Correia MI, Cardoso VN.

Eur J Nutr. 2011 Jun;50(4):261-9. Epub 2010 Oct 10.


4.Probiotics and Gastrointestinal Disease: Clinical Evidence and Basic Science.

Petrof EO.

Antiinflamm Antiallergy Agents Med Chem. 2009 Sep 1;8(3):260-269.

PMID:20890386[PubMed] Free PMC Article

5.[Saccharomyces boulardii modulates dendritic cell properties and intestinal microbiota disruption after antibiotic treatment].

Collignon A, Sandré C, Barc MC.

Gastroenterol Clin Biol. 2010 Sep;34 Suppl 1:S71-8. French.


6.Interaction of Saccharomyces boulardii with intestinal brush border membranes: key to probiotic effects?

Buts JP, De Keyser N.

J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr. 2010 Oct;51(4):532-3. Review.

ETA: Apologies for it all being S.boulardii. This is the one I'm personally interested in and is the one most extensively studied, on account of it's initial link with Cholera (it was discovered by Henri Boulardii).
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Smashing, thanks for that, it's what I was hoping for. I am more and more inclined to try to make them eat it whether they like it or not - maybe I need to grow some mint, it's easy enough, it's practically a weed!
 
Naturally said:
So, is brewers yeast a prebiotic then
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B+ for effort, ha ha ha!

As rightly pointed out above, the Brewers Yeast that *we* as horseowners buy is dead, but contains all the properties of an extract of the organism. This means that it is indeed a pre-biotic, as it benefits live organisms, but is not live itself. Literal translation is 'before life' as in pre-biotic soup (aka Primordial Soup). A PrObiotic is a live organism, such as Yeasacc, or the various little critters put into yoghurts!

Hmm, maybe you should have an A.... ;)
 
Fransurrey said:
Probiotic definition: a microorganism thought to be beneficial to the host organism. The MECHANISM of action is the anti-inflammatory and adhesion properties, as mentioned previously
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You are, of course, quite right, the mechanism IS anti-inflammatory for the gut wall, I meant it was not anti-inflammatory in the sense that bute is.
 
Triskar said:
Where can I get Biosaf? I've googled it but can only find a supplier for feed companies to add to pelleted feeds?
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Yes it is used by some feed manufacturers, I believe both Allen&Page and TopSpec both use Biosaf, I did think there was a company who sold it on it's own - not sure, will have a hunt around for you.

The main reason it is so much better is that it is pure and protected (think of an M&M :) ). Probiotics are very sensitive to heat (above about 80 degrees) and a lot are killed off by the manufacturing process, then they have to get through the foregut which is designed to digest them! As you can imagine, not much is left by the time it gets to the hindgut, because this one is protected (I also think there is another one but the name escapes me) more gets into the hindgut where it is needed.

All the research on pro and pre biotics in the animal world was initially carried out on cows (primarily to increase milk yields) and has carried over into the equine world, so we have a lot to thank those milk cows for.
 
cptrayes said:
I hate two things about the internet. One is people posting things anonymously that they would not dream of posting if they could be identified. Two is people who only post when things are going right - they make everyone else feel like failures.

So, as a barefoot advocate, posting under my own name as usual, I want to let people who are struggling with footie horses, or contemplating going barefoot, know that for the first time in three years I am suddenly faced with a footie horse. It's a huge disappointment, to say the least. He's been rock crunching for over two years, but suddenly today he is feeling stones on the same track he has been on week after week.

I'm not yet sure whether this is because he no longer gets brewers yeast, as of a month ago. Or whether there is something different about the grass growth this year from the last two springs when he was fine.

So, commiserations to any other barefooters struggling with grass related footiness. And if you are considering switching to barefoot and have any doubts about your horse's sensitivity to grass, I'd hold off until the autumn.

Lots of horses have no problems whatsoever with barefoot footiness. I have another who is absolutely fine on exactly the same diet. But if you are thinking of going barefoot, do bear in mind that some of them can be difficult to manage without big restrictions in access to grass.




To answer a few questions that might come up, before they do:


Why don't you just put shoes on him?

Because every time I take the shoes off a horse its feet change so much that I can't bear to put the shoes back on and lose those improvements that I saw happening with my own eyes.

Because this "footiness" is caused by gut bacteria leaking into the bloodstream, and they will stay there affecting the horse even if I put shoes on and stop it showing. Boots are a better option for me if I have to protect his feet. That way I will still know what is going on in his bloodstream.


How can you be so cruel as to keep the horse in pain?

He's not in pain unless he treads on a big sharp stone, and even then "pain" is probably too strong a word. I will not expose him to big sharp stones until he is able to cope with them again.


Why did you stop the brewer's yeast?

The supply changed and my horses will not eat the new stuff.


Why don't you restrict his grazing?

He is already off grass from about 9am- 7pm and that has kept him absolutely fine for the last two years.


What will you do now?

Buy a muzzle tomorrow and muzzle him overnight. Put him on the activated charcoal that I have another laminitis prone horse on. Try and get him to eat the sour brewers yeast even if he does not like it.



Any other sensible suggestions would be welcome.
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Hi there, sorry I can't offer any solutions but I am interested in your feeding of supplements, my daughters pony did have laminitus year before last, she is sound but footy on stony/hard ground (fine in sand school), she is not shod but wears easy boots when having to ride on hard ground and this really helps... she is on restricted grazing with a small slice of last years hay...(is still too fat, but is living on fresh air) what is the brewers yeast for and the activated charcoal for....

cheers....
 
cptrayes said:
Smashing, thanks for that, it's what I was hoping for. I am more and more inclined to try to make them eat it whether they like it or not - maybe I need to grow some mint, it's easy enough, it's practically a weed!
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It's easy to grow! Put it in a large pot though otherwise it will take over your garden :) I chop it up and stir through the feed, so it all tastes of mint.
 
dizz4 said:
Hi there, sorry I can't offer any solutions but I am interested in your feeding of supplements, my daughters pony did have laminitus year before last, she is sound but footy on stony/hard ground (fine in sand school), she is not shod but wears easy boots when having to ride on hard ground and this really helps... she is on restricted grazing with a small slice of last years hay...(is still too fat, but is living on fresh air) what is the brewers yeast for and the activated charcoal for....

cheers....
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I'm sorry, you're going to need to read the thread, it's all been written about in various posts by several people.

You might also be advised to test your hay and grass for copper deficiency and manganese/iron overload as that will also cause IR type problems in horses.
 
chestnut cob said:
It's easy to grow! Put it in a large pot though otherwise it will take over your garden :) I chop it up and stir through the feed, so it all tastes of mint.
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Where can I get some? Do I need to go sniffing all around the countryside???? Will it grow in winter in a outdoors or in a conservatory?

Sorry about all the questions!
 
Tesco usually have growing mint in pots other wise garden center, but agree with chestnut cob, contain the stuff or it will overtake the garden. I have had success growing it both indoors and outdoors.
 
cptrayes said:
Where can I get some? Do I need to go sniffing all around the countryside???? Will it grow in winter in a outdoors or in a conservatory?

Sorry about all the questions!
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LOL, it makes a change for someone to ask me questions, it's usually me asking everyone else! ;)

The easiest thing to do is to buy a living mint plant from Sainsbury's, or wherever you shop. Plant it into a bigger pot with compost and leave it in the garden. Mine always dies off in the winter outside but comes back in spring, once the weather is warmer. I guess you could move it inside for the winter, or take a cutting and plant in a pot inside. That should grow into a plant when it's inside and you'll have mint all year round.

You don't need to do much to mint, it can survive most things - though I managed to kill mine with too much water last year. I have two mint plants in the garden this year and am not doing anything to them - they look far better than my pampered one did last year!
 
This thread has proved fascinating for me. I have a 20 year old unshod wb who originally had his shoes taken off because there was no horn left to put them on (this was way before I bought him). Sometimes he copes well, other times not so well. I'm on a livery yard too, so can be a bit difficult to tailor his entire lifestyle :(

He is currently a bit footy and most of the tracks we hack on are quite stony. I am considering boots, but he has proper draft-horse feet that are 10 ins long! (he is KWPN, but is on the carriage horse register so looks different to your typical dwb). If anyone can suggest any that come in that size I'd be grateful, have had no luck myself so far.

With regard to the Biosaf, I've found another supplement that contains it: http://http://www.equiliser.co.uk/

As I'm currently spending a fortune feeding biotin, protexin (as a pre and probiotic) and a joint supplement, I'm thinking of switching to this.

I also used to feed charcoal, but can't say I noticed much of a difference over the few months he was on it :confused:
 
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Edie82 said:
This thread has proved fascinating for me. I have a 20 year old unshod wb who originally had his shoes taken off because there was no horn left to put them on (this was way before I bought him). Sometimes he copes well, other times not so well. I'm on a livery yard too, so can be a bit difficult to tailor his entire lifestyle :(

He is currently a bit footy and most of the tracks we hack on are quite stony. I am considering boots, but he has proper draft-horse feet that are 10 ins long! (he is KWPN, but is on the carriage horse register so looks different to your typical dwb). If anyone can suggest any that come in that size I'd be grateful, have had no luck myself so far.
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i think Boa's go to carthorse size now?? Nope, just checked, nowhere near big enough!
 
Where can you get the activated charcoal from? From this post and the other on cribbing, it may well be a goer!

And a silly question.... if I am feeding pink powder (or the equivalent) would I actually need to think about brewers yeast, or is this just getting into overkill?
 
Angua, I used to get mine from a company called Fine Fettle Feed, but i can't get their website to load on my ipad at the mo, so can't post a link.Tip, it's MUCH cheaper to buy in bulk as a business customer if you're VAT registered ;)
 
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