There's so much fuss about Rollkur etc but...

Munchkin, if that's true, that's ridiculous, just as effing ridiculous as the "it's got to be GROSS to win" mentality.
a big shake-up needs to happen with the judges then, in the interests of horse welfare.
i thought it was supposed to be about perfect conformation, perfect manners, perfect presentation etc etc, not perfect size too...?!
just imagine if that happened with dressage horses, X can't win today because he isn't EXACTLY 16.2, no matter how well he's gone, etc etc. it's totally flipping ridiculous.
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I dont know why they arent tested, they really should be. Naivety on behalf of the organisatons maybe? Or a blind eye?

Yes, my pupils were on genuinely home produced ponies and both were placed. They went home and went to pony club, hacked out and shock horror they even went out in the field! They were under alot of pressure though, with feeding/rugging/training practices, some they followed slightly, even though i disagreed. But nowhere near as bad as some of the practices i have seen and heard about. And certainly no drugs!
 
WoopsiiD - At that level I can honestly say I never met anyone who didn't practise points one and two. Not one person. And it is "the top" I'm talking about... I'm sure there are hobby riders with one or two ponies who get there through time and training (but I cannot imagine their ponies are a normal weight?) - I'm talking really about yards, producers, breeders, etc.

So, I'll agree to compromise at 95%
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kerilli - the problem with the heights in showing classes is that a pony anything less than the maximum height will be marked down. So, if your little show ponio was in fact 145cm, you wouldn't put it in a "not exc 148" class, you'd chop off its feet, starve it, dehydrate it, slap the measuring stick down on its withers as hard as you could to make it flinch away and get the damn thing measured in at 138cm... LHC of course. Otherwise, the judge will tell you your precious pony is too small.

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Have to disagree with this too Millfields Sportsman who has pretty much won everything is no where near up to height and looks comparatively small against all the other Connemaras in the ring - didn't stop him getting anywhere.
 
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They were under alot of pressure though, with feeding/rugging/training practices, some they followed slightly, even though i disagreed.

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That's the point I was trying to make in replying to WoopsiiD. It almost becomes mandatory to succeed, and it shouldn't be that way at all.
 
Munchkin-I'll take your compromise and I'm proud to be in the 5%
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...for the record....we qualified for the 'Big One' but just 17 days after he was gone and my heart was never in showing again. Now I'm a happy hacker and the extent of my 'gadgetery' is a pair of brushing boots and petal boots!
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Oh and i forgot to mention the fixing! Certain owners taking certain judges out to dinner just before HOYS. Mmm, guess who won? Serious backhanders for qualifying tickets too.

Wish there was a whistleblower series into showing!
 
Ok would have to agree with you on that one but the point I was trying to make and I know you said don't say it but don't tar everyone with the same brush, people reading this thread have gone away with awful ideas regarding the whole of showing and it isn't really all like that.
 
Jo C - visit some top showing yards and you will see that, on the whole, it is.

You might not practise any of this, but you haven't yet taken my point, which is WHY is a fuss not made about this stuff going on? Because you show, you're too busy defending the few people who don't abuse their ponies to actually say yes, this is a widespread problem in showing.

As I said before, I am glad the dressage fraternity has stood up largely against Rollkur, and if you care about the reputation of what you do, you should stop taking it personally and do the same.


teddyt - I have some time on my hands if you're up for it... a bit of undercover? Um, as it were
 
I have for many many years been part of the showing world.
As a family we have had winners and champions at HOYS, RIHS and BSPS along with many of the major county shows, in both ponies (SP and WHP) Cobs and Hunters, and my sister and mother have judged at the very top level.

I am truly hurt by your original post.
Some of the ponies/horses above have been totally home produced, and have been allowed all the other aspects of life, inc Hunter trials and hunting (yes a HOYS winner went hunting).
We have NEVER practised any of the above!!! and it never stopped us!
In my daughters final year showing, she was also eventing (on a 14.2/3hh pony) and so shock horror the pony was too small for its class and too lean as well, it never stopped her with top placings at the BSPS summer championships that year!!
As for a 145cms pony trying to be measured at 138cms, how ever much trimming went on etc, you are not going to be able to lose 7cms!

Our original pony was a mere 13.3 1/2hh and he was one of the best 14.2hh Show Ponies at the time. Charisma and presence are required.

The drugs testing has also increased in the last few years!
 
I have spent a lot of time in one of the top showing yards and not seen things like this however it is not a pony yard. I don't show now (do dressage instead - shoot me now
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) so have no need to defend the reputation of showing just wanted to put over my side of what I have seen. If these practises go on in showing of course it should be outlawed but from my experience which I grant you was natives I haven't seen it.
 
I started showing a year ago with my little Sec A mare. She's a healthy pony and is the correct weight. I've made some concessions - she now has a fly sheet on in the summer and is rugged over winter but thats it. We rarely win and are often criticised for her being too thin, despite being in the correct range for her height.

The sad fact is people who treat ponies like this win and win often. If judges pulled their socks up and stopped placing fat ponies who are clearly unhappy then all these practises would die out.
 
i think the same about rolkur, but that sounds horrific... to think horses actually die as a result of 'good' pros behavious is frankly disgusting. Why do people not realise theyre animals, not a piece of rubber that if you bend it for long enough will stay that way- it is more likely to snap!

Now it is that i do really begin to give respect to those children who compete against horses treated like this, but have supportive parents who teach them how to do it properly... just must be a bit frustrating to have a case of- "if i do 'animal cruelty action X' ill get the red rossy instead of the blue one"
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I was showing in the 90's and even then there were people who would resort to all manner of things to secure a win. Its been over 10 years since I entered a high level show ring and maybe a lot has changed in those years.
As some who has shown and never done anything to hurt or endanger her pony just for the win I will defend some people. HOWEVER I would also be the first to say that some of the practises that go on now are horrific and it should be down to the regulatory bodies to investigate this fully and punish those that need it.
Sadly at the end of the day, unlike dressage and showjumping there is no 'obvious scoring'. One day you might get a judge who likes a chestnut with white socks the next day same winning pony might not be the right colour for next judge.
Hope that made sense....kinda posting while now calming down!
 
I think alot of things go on in every discipline that people dont see
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i have worked or been around a number of yard and seen things i dont like
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and it all needs to change and let horses be horses
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and stop forcing them to do things they dont like just so the owner/riders win prices.
 
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I think the problem with the children's ponies is that the young jockeys of 5 or 6 are never going to be capable of schooling a pony to the level required for them to do well in the show ring. You cannot expect a 5 year old child to teach a blood pony to go into an outline and maintain it during a ridden show which means people resort to other measures to make sure the pony behaves in the required way without the child needing to do too much.



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then this, again, is where the expectation of showing judges needs to change. I agree that in the majority of cases a 5 yr old child on a lead rein or first ridden would not be able to school a pony into going correctly, and may not be able to maintain that way of going in a show ring (especially considering most showing classes take at least an hour!), so why expect it and mark them on it?

To those of you who find the initial post insulting, I would argue that these things DO happen, whether we all like it or not, and rather than spending energies decyring the OP, surely it would be better to focus on promoting good practice, and highlighting/eradicating bad practice?

At it's very simplest, obese horses and ponies win a lot of showing classes - surely you cannot argue with this point? People are now being prosecuted for having obese horses. How can the horse industry be both supporting and condemning the same thing?
 
I feel a bit compelled to post now, I rarely get into these sort of posts - first the SJ post and now this.
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I have never been involved with ponies but my sibling shows at the top level (top 10 placings at HOYS for a few years now). I don't post publicly about it as I don't show, am fairly rubbish in comparison and don't want to be braggy.
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I never have I seen these sort of practices with horses. Have seen ponies being worked by adults in the collecting ring. As for the obesity thing her good horse is a it of a good doer so often has to diet a bit!
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I am also based on a yard which starts many show horses amonget the SJers which are the main type and again have not observed this type of practice.

Crikey SJ and show horses *backs out of CR for fear of being something akin to satan*
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It's not just little kids' ponies. The yard I was at, kids, teenagers etc rode, yes, only turned up to the shows, mind. Wouldn't want to learn to ride/get dirty. But there were adults too and their horses got the same treatment.

A friend of mine bought a lovely TB last year, was a HOYS Riding Horse res champion, nice boy. Became surplus to requirements.

After a few weeks he started to drop weight rapidly and looked like he was about to drop dead. Vet said it was due to steroid injection withdrawal.

Please don't insult me by telling me it's just kids' ponies.
 
Bex1984-if you read the posts from those of us that found it insulting properly, we are not saying these things DONT happen.
The point that we are making is the OP in her post stated that ALL showing people practice these methods.
We are saying that NOT ALL OF US DO THIS.
Think of it this way.......these practises that go on are cruel yes-but they don't affect you as you don't show. Its us band of people who DONT lower ourselves to these 'standards' that are most affected as our properly cared for animals are being overlooked and not placed. Its us that loose out and to be fair trying to get our voices heard is like pi**ing in the wind, and there is proof of that even on this thread! We are not 'decrying' the OP we are yet again fighting to be heard!
 
I was involved with high-level showing briefly, and saw and heard a few things that I wasn't keen on. However, the same can be said for every discipline. Mostly I saw people who were showing because they loved it, and really cared for their horses. In any horse sport there will be a proportion of people who will do whatever it takes to win, and that's what this all boils down to.
 
Oh heck some of the things described in this thread are shocking and utterly depressing!! I've heard of some of the things mentioned but oh heck something has to change!! What is the point of it all? I thank my lucky stars I have mine at home and don't have to watch this stuff day in and day out!

Well lets hope this Rollkur thing does get people thinking and the courage to speak out more against this sort of stuff.
 
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people reading this thread have gone away with awful ideas regarding the whole of showing and it isn't really all like that.

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Ahhhh have just come back to this post and must say that after I read it I didnt think that EVERYONE who shows uses these practices, the same with mispractice in any discipline its only certain people involved.
 
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Bex1984-if you read the posts from those of us that found it insulting properly, we are not saying these things DONT happen.
The point that we are making is the OP in her post stated that ALL showing people practice these methods.
We are saying that NOT ALL OF US DO THIS.

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Right - so they do happen. Which is the point. I totally agree that not everyone does this, and it's the power of the combined voices of those who don't get involved in these practices that will change things.

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Think of it this way.......these practises that go on are cruel yes-but they don't affect you as you don't show. Its us band of people who DONT lower ourselves to these 'standards' that are most affected as our properly cared for animals are being overlooked and not placed. Its us that loose out and to be fair trying to get our voices heard is like pi**ing in the wind, and there is proof of that even on this thread! We are not 'decrying' the OP we are yet again fighting to be heard!

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If you read my earlier post, I do local level showing and have seen and heard some of these practices going on. OK - I don't show that much myself, but I have spent hours and hours and hours watching showing this summer, often from a position where I can hear the judges discussing the ponies.

The point really is, as I said, surely it's better to spend time fighting for a change in these practices. You say it's a struggle - well, that's because people aren't aware they happen. A post like the OP will make more people aware and for that alone can be no bad thing. yes, it might reflect badly on showing, but it is an issue to do with showing, just as rollkur reflects badly on dressage.
 
I know there are bad/dreadful things in all disciplines but I didn't think we were allowed to say that!
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I actually think it's good if we can be open about some of the horrible practices... people like me live very sheltered lives and if we don't know...

Mta...
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that's because people aren't aware they happen. A post like the OP will make more people aware and for that alone can be no bad thing. yes, it might reflect badly on showing, but it is an issue to do with showing, just as rollkur reflects badly on dressage.

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Just seen this and it's exactly the point I made many of us and the Public aren't aware of these things.
 
I have heard of a few of the points the OP made...
the only thing Ive seen with my own eyes Re: show ponies that I didnt like was to see a pretty little thing being ridden by a slightly to big adult in a running martingale tied in knots so it was very short and pony had no choice but to keep its head down
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Not sure why mind as im sure the rider was perfectly capable to work it correctly without it
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I find it quite worrying that there are people replying to this thread who are more wrapped up in defending themselves and the reputation of showing than being disgusted that this stuff goes on.

Although.... perhaps that answers my original question re why the showing world isn't standing up against this behaviour in the same way the dressage world is.

I don't care if my original post reflects badly on showing, and if you cared about things changing for the better, neither would you. It's a shame that you think it's okay as long as you're not doing it yourself.
 
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