There's so much fuss about Rollkur etc but...

Sorry, you were swallowed up in the mayhem!

It wasn't an argument. It was a question. Please find said question, which I think has been repeated a few thousand times now, and is in fact the heading of the thread and first line of the first post, and answer accordingly. I'll look tomorrow. Goodnight!

WoopsiiD - you just made the point I've been trying to make to you all evening, thank you!
 
Maybe you should have just asked me to word it for you then...
smirk.gif
 
Ok last post before bed for me as well. Throughout your post you assert that the practices you describe should spark a sustained and united reaction akin to the rolkur debate. I posted that I have never observed these practices although my experience is limited to horses not ponies.

Alongside this you assert that if competitors do not use these methods they will be disadvantaged. I am saying that they are not all disadvantaged and the examples quoted illustrate this. You from my reading have not addressed this within your posts as yet.

Hope thats clearer for you
 
Just to answer why the showing world does not get the negative publicity is because its not an FEI sport/Olympic. It is not governed by an International board who control all aspects of the sport.
Showing is very fragmented with several different bodies/societies who all have slightly different rules in this country alone.
I am not surprised about ponies because they are a complete paradox especially first ridden - a pony that looks like a Derby winner under 12.2hh, who moves with charisma and look at me, is fed up to the eyeballs to keep it well conditioned yet are ridden by a tiny jockey who have to make it look like its beautifully trained beyond what the capabilities of the rider are.
 
Just read this whole post over brekkie and several cups of tea! I used to do a lot of showing in my youth - riding and WH ponies - and I do remember how desperately competitive it was with huge amounts of pressure on the children from parents and producers. I also worked on a well-known riding pony stud for a year and can remember an incident where someone attempted to run down one of their stallions in a lorry at a show! It was certainly the bitchiest area of compeitition that I ever expereienced! I was very lucky and showed a lot of ponies who were beautifully produced and in no way ill treated. However, I was offered rides on others who had similar treatment to that which you have described and it did seem to be fairly widespread, even then (this was back in the 70s and 80s). I always, always refused to ride anythiing that had been treated in any way whcih made me unhappy - and believe me, I lost lost the chance to ride many ponies at the very top (and certainly forfeited a few HOYS rides!). However, I had no idea about many of the practices in your list at the top of your post. I'm not remeotely involved in showing now but IF all of this is widespread then yes, more fuss should certainly be made. The issue of overweight horses (a big hate of mine too!) comes up frequently, but I guess this is because it is a hiigly visible issue? As others have said, much of this must go on behind closed doors. I do agree, Munchkin, that more needs to be done about equine welfare in all disciplines but I think that posts made by others on this thread to the effect that showing does not have a single, cohesive governing body, are right. Perhaps that needs to be the first step?
 
Munchkin, if you were a witness to some of these things you say you saw, where was your phonecall to the relevant authorities to report the incidents? I don't show, so cannot comment on your points, other than to say I think there are alot of unsavoury elements of Equestrianism as a whole that need looking at, and changing.
 
I haven't read the entire thread but MUNCHKIN if you have seen all this then why didn't you do something about it? By allowing things like this to carry on & doing nothing it is virtually condoning these actions which is unacceptable.
mad.gif
 
The reason why there has been such an outcry over Rollkur is because a number competitors have been videoed using the practice, and the distress of the horses in question is quite apparent. Same with the case of a top showjumper riding on a tight draw rein - a photo in a top magazine is proof that it happens!

You, however, are giving no proof to back up your accusations about showing - we have to take your word for it. Now, you may be the most honest person in the world, but on the other hand you may just be out to get your own back for being dismissed, so really we can't all make an outcry over the practices that you say go on because we don't know whether they really happen or not.

The day that someone goes live with videos of top yards using these practices will be the day that there will be an outcry about it. I must say I am surprised that you didn't try to document these practices yourself at the time or contact the welfare organisations.

I must say though, I do agree with the issue about obese horses and laminitis. The situation does seem to be improving, but as my OH is a farrier, he is concerned by the amount of animals he sees in the show ring with noticeable laminitic rings - even more so when they then go onto win! Perhaps judges should penalise laminitic hoof rings as a blemish - much more so than honestly won blemishes such as scars and windgalls.

And yes, we do a bit of showing too and have been quite successful at low level without resorting to any of the practices mentioned. Must say the competitor who said showing is done by people who can't event, dressage, showjump etc. did make me laugh because our pony does all those disciplines successfully and more!
 
I agree entirely Munchkin, I have a number of close friends, who persistently use ALL of the above methods and then after feeding the poor ponies till they are fit to pop (mentally and physically) add gallons (and as you say Through the night before a show) of NUpa feed, to dope the poor little sods into a stupor!
The pony showing crowd around here currently are some of the most repulsive cruel people you could ever wish to meet. HOwever when a certain H&H columnist attends shows his ponies stand out head and shoulders above the rest, because they 'sparkle' with a natural well being!
 
Your comments are not only offensive but (from our point of view) totally untrue. We have many people working at our yard year round as gap students and children who need to work a week on a yard as part of their school life. If we behaved as suggested, don't you think that people would have said something by now.

And before you say that we perhaps are not one of the top yards, we have been pretty lucky this year. Champion coloured at RIHS and HOYS, Chamption Cob at RIHS and Hoys, Reserve champion cob at RIHS, Champion riding horse at HOYS, winner of the ROR class at HOYS, 2nd in the MW hunters at HOYS and RIHS, 2nd coloureds at RIHS and 3rd at HOYS ...

Oh - and Supreme Champion at HOYS

So I think that we count as a reasonably successful yard.

After HOYS most of the horses are on holiday. However, the winner of RIHS for 2 years in a row (hw hunter) has been hunting three times - obviously must get time off from being tied to his tail in the stable.

What a load of absolute rubbish. Goodness knows where you "trained" - if you had wanted to learn about showing, I can recommend plenty of yards which treat their horses as we do - they jump, get turned out, go out hacking, do some dressage and generally have lots of fun.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your comments are not only offensive but (from our point of view) totally untrue. We have many people working at our yard year round as gap students and children who need to work a week on a yard as part of their school life. If we behaved as suggested, don't you think that people would have said something by now.

And before you say that we perhaps are not one of the top yards, we have been pretty lucky this year. Champion coloured at RIHS and HOYS, Chamption Cob at RIHS and Hoys, Reserve champion cob at RIHS, Champion riding horse at HOYS, winner of the ROR class at HOYS, 2nd in the MW hunters at HOYS and RIHS, 2nd coloureds at RIHS and 3rd at HOYS ...

Oh - and Supreme Champion at HOYS

So I think that we count as a reasonably successful yard.

After HOYS most of the horses are on holiday. However, the winner of RIHS for 2 years in a row (hw hunter) has been hunting three times - obviously must get time off from being tied to his tail in the stable.

What a load of absolute rubbish. Goodness knows where you "trained" - if you had wanted to learn about showing, I can recommend plenty of yards which treat their horses as we do - they jump, get turned out, go out hacking, do some dressage and generally have lots of fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMM - I know who these horses are and I can't imagine for one moment that any of them can possibly have been treated using any of these methods - their way of going is far too happy, relaxed and natural for that. If any of these practices do go on, to any extent, I certainly wouldn't think that it was in your yard!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree entirely Munchkin, I have a number of close friends, who persistently use ALL of the above methods and then after feeding the poor ponies till they are fit to pop (mentally and physically) add gallons (and as you say Through the night before a show) of NUpa feed, to dope the poor little sods into a stupor!
The pony showing crowd around here currently are some of the most repulsive cruel people you could ever wish to meet. HOwever when a certain H&H columnist attends shows his ponies stand out head and shoulders above the rest, because they 'sparkle' with a natural well being!

[/ QUOTE ]

As one of the 'pony showing crowd' I ought to find that very hurtful. I am neither cruel nor repulsive and neither are ANY of the people I know or show along side. I have never seen more than half of the OP accusations carried out - so you've seen ponies with their heads tied to their tails have you? You've seen ponies mouths sliced? Absolute rubbish if you ask me. I persoanlly find showjumpers repulsive - but I'd never say that on here normally, can you imagine the outcry?
This is some peoples life, livlihood and hobby. I'd LOVE to see some evidence from all the accusations you people are flinging about.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It is widespread, it is the norm at the top. )

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is not. As I pointed out with the results from our yard for this year, we must be near the top, and we certainly don't use the methods you described in your original email. Neither do I personally know anyone who DOES use those methods.

Oh, and to the person who said that showing riders aren't good enough to do anything else, Guy Landau (winner of HOYs supreme last year) was 3rd in the Grand National, Richard Ramsay competed at high level 3 day eventing i.e. Badminton/Burghley, Jayne Webber trained and broke race horses for many years (including Dancing Brave), several (Robert Oliver, Robert Walker) have been MFH - apologies to anyone I have missed - these just sprang to mind when I saw the comment.

So, whoever made the comment, what have you achieved that makes you able to be so disparaging about these people?
 
I think there are bad practices among certain people in all the disciplines, I am friends with some top level show jumpers & have never seen a draw rein being used, or a bit harsher than a rubber pelham, I also regularly visit a top level dressage rider, no draw reins or rollkur there. The eventers I know treat their horses amazingly, they have the best of care. I do not know any showing people, but have heard of tying heads in in side reins in the stable, but thats the same as other people hearing that all show jumpers ride everything in massive shanked bits & draw reins, which my friends do not.
 
I do feel that these practices are widespread but some obviously more than others. When i first learnt/saw what went on i was absolutely amazed and horrified at the same time.
I dont know about cutting mouths but tying down, excessive exercise, extreme training techniques, etc are all common in pony production (i dont know about horses). Overfeeding is definately common, with huge subsequent doses of calmer, as FA2 mentioned. Some of the calmers used are definately not legal either. Ponies dont need cereals, let alone in the quantities fed by many producers.

I am not saying it happen in all yards, it doesnt. And there are many people who produce ponies more humanely. unfortunatey though, from my experience (RIHS/HOYS level), there is alot of ponies with seriously compromised welfare, all in the name of a title and a rosette. Thats why i suggested in an earlier post to do some undercover work and whistleblowing, then people could see the proof that some really nasty things do go on.

As a slightly seperate issue i rang a top pony stud last year looking for a stallion for one of my mares. I asked about the stallions temperaments (because i wanted to breed a childs pony, not just a show pony- i know much of the temperament comes from the mare but the stallion is still relevant to me) and was basically told that you cant have both! She basically said that they did have very flighty/feisty temperaments but they wanted that for the show ring. All the ponies were also kept on grade 1 agricultural land and fed cereals. So consequently this adds to the problem- highly bred ponies, over fed, then strapped down, sedated, and so on. All in the name of sport, the whole cycle is sometimes starting as a foal.
 
[ QUOTE ]
it is ridiculous that 1/2 an inch can make such a huge difference to a pony's value etc etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've not read any further, because this sums it up. Cruelty is all that stands in the way of turning a £2K pony into a £15K pony. It all comes down to money, and to win (in order to get more money), you have to be prepared to be ruthless.
frown.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it is ridiculous that 1/2 an inch can make such a huge difference to a pony's value etc etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've not read any further, because this sums it up. Cruelty is all that stands in the way of turning a £2K pony into a £15K pony. It all comes down to money, and to win (in order to get more money), you have to be prepared to be ruthless.
frown.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the same thing can be said for every single equestrian sport.

At the same time, I win, and plenty of other people win (FMM's yard was Supreme at HOYS - you do not get bigger than that) and we/they are not ruthless. You do not HAVE to use these 'techniques' to win, it's ridiculous to tar all winning show people with this brush.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Exactly the same thing can be said for every single equestrian sport.

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree.
frown.gif


[ QUOTE ]

You do not HAVE to use these 'techniques' to win, it's ridiculous to tar all winning show people with this brush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, but aren't you miffed if a class full of obviously over-height, over-weight horses over shadow and beat your slightly under top height, fit, but no less top class horse? I imagine it happens rather a lot and the temptation to adopt an "if you can't beat them, join them" attitude must appeal to a lot of people.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Exactly the same thing can be said for every single equestrian sport.

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree.
frown.gif


[ QUOTE ]

You do not HAVE to use these 'techniques' to win, it's ridiculous to tar all winning show people with this brush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, but aren't you miffed if a class full of obviously over-height, over-weight horses over shadow and beat your slightly under top height, fit, but no less top class horse? I imagine it happens rather a lot and the temptation to adopt "if you can't beat them, join them" must appeal to a lot of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take a gander at the JMB site, you will see that a large number of overheight animals measured out this year. They include some very big winners who won some of the biggest prizes of the year. Measuring, I believe, is being seriously cracked down on and the number of overheight ponies is decreasing all the time. Judges are becoming less and less afraid to put down ponies that they believe are overheight, and it is now not worth the risk of entering, for example, a 150cm pony in a 148cm SP class. More and more people are objecting to ponies that they believe to be overheight, so I think that is being cracked down on. I am aware of some VERY big winning ponies who are several centimetres below the allowed height - I don't believe it makes much difference. Apologies if I have my facts very wrong, but I believe last years HOYS SP Champion was a few cms underheight.

I also think the issue of overweight ponies has been publicised so much lately that the message is really getting through. I have seen a huge decrease in the number of overweight ponies in the ring over the past 2 years, and a huge increase in judges who put ponies down because of their weight. It doesn't always go down well, being told "I put you last because your pony is overweight" but judges are becoming increasingly unafraid to crack down on it. There are still exceptions, of course, but it is getting better.

I think a few years ago, many people would be prepared to take the chance with an overheight pony ("No one will say anything and it'll look stunning!") and an overweight pony ("Everyone does it, he'll look thin if he's not fat.") but nowadays things are changing IMO - overheight ponies stick out like sore thumbs and people are very hot on measuring right now, and judges will put overweight ponies down the line. It's not perfect yet, of course, but I think things are getting better.
 
actually there have ben lots of showing riders who went onto greater things, Jane Holderness Roddam and Jennie Loriston Clarke for example. An irish girl called Louisa Clarke started off in showing (won Pony of the year at Hoys) and later added the eventing young rider title as well.
as for the rest of the thread there are obviously abhorrent practices in any facet of horse sport but sadly it is a fact that certain ones are less regulated than others. No one can control what is done at home and there will be good yards and bad but showing is not regulated nearly as much as say eventing or show jumping. And if you saw some of the stuff that goes on in the USA in that area you would weep.
I am of the opinion that more abuse goes on with childrens ponies in big yards because they have to be 'made' for tiny children to ride, who in reality could not possibly have the strength or experience to cope with their animals with out the 'pre-training' by adults.
 
I have never read such ignorant nonsense in my life. I wont dispute some of these practises happen but I can confidently say that they are NOT widespread in the showing world.

Perhaps if you took time to visit some of the top showing yards you would gain a better understanding of the time, skill and effort that is required to produce a successful show horse or pony. At least then the next time you sit down to have a glass of wine your venting can be informed und unbiased - failing that I'd suggest laying off the red a bit
smirk.gif


The majority will not condone or tolerate any method of production that may compromise a horses welfare, to suggest they may is ludicrous. I am not ashamed to be defending my favourite discipline, contrary to popular belief it is not a corrupt, elitist or cruel.
mad.gif


I'm not convinced that any person who will stand back and allegedly see horses mistreated and killed through inhumane practise and not take action against it can really take the moral high ground in this discussion.
 
[ QUOTE ]
BRS was replying to the first post - definitely not you!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Phew - don't mind rattling cages, but don't want anything misunderstood!
 
OP made a lot of very sweeping statements, with no proof to back them up. I show at local level, and am quite insulted. I didn't start riding until 5 years ago, I am 47 now. I have no wish to jump, but do enjoy schooling and dressage and showing my gorgeous coloured native mare.
Who are you to make such scurrilous accusations at EVERYBODY who enjoys showing?

I require facts, not waffle- or an apology!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top