Janette
Well-Known Member
Rebuilding my laptop after I wiped it.........................
Only just got it going....
There's so much fuss about Rollkur etc but...
- Thread starter Munchkin
- Start date
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I agree entirely Munchkin, I have a number of close friends, who persistently use ALL of the above methods and then after feeding the poor ponies till they are fit to pop (mentally and physically) add gallons (and as you say Through the night before a show) of NUpa feed, to dope the poor little sods into a stupor!
The pony showing crowd around here currently are some of the most repulsive cruel people you could ever wish to meet. HOwever when a certain H&H columnist attends shows his ponies stand out head and shoulders above the rest, because they 'sparkle' with a natural well being!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm Am I the only one wondering then, why as a horse owner/lover you are A.Still friends with them and B.Have not reported them???
I agree entirely Munchkin, I have a number of close friends, who persistently use ALL of the above methods and then after feeding the poor ponies till they are fit to pop (mentally and physically) add gallons (and as you say Through the night before a show) of NUpa feed, to dope the poor little sods into a stupor!
The pony showing crowd around here currently are some of the most repulsive cruel people you could ever wish to meet. HOwever when a certain H&H columnist attends shows his ponies stand out head and shoulders above the rest, because they 'sparkle' with a natural well being!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm Am I the only one wondering then, why as a horse owner/lover you are A.Still friends with them and B.Have not reported them???
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
LOL Janette-your here now and thats what matters!
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
To the OP what a total and utter load of rot. I'm offended and disgusted that you posted such total and utter rubbish, very obviously you have no idea what work goes on into producing a show horse and have probably taken a 3 legged nag into a ring and some poor judge has offended you by not placing it first.
I wont deny that some of that probably does happen, but you would be blind and biased if you didnt think other disciplines had just as many problems.
That sort of thing is not wide spread, it does not happen at most top yards. I've been showing for 15 years with a reasonable amount of success (nothing like FMM's success but i cant afford the quality of pony for that) and not come accross any of that sort of thing happening.
I have however been on top dressage yards where rolkur was one of the nicer training methods. I've seen a TOP dressage rider upend a schooling stick and use it on a horse until blood was drawn. I know this happens on that yard but i dont say that it happens on every top dressage yard.
I've heard of race horses who have been beaten black and blue with a metal pole because they dared to rear. So it happens on some race yards but not all.
you'd be foolish if you believed that rapping horses had died out in showjumping but i'm not going to go round and say all top horses have been rapped
You are tarring us all with the same brush and I hate that. I've competed in dressage, showjumping, eventing and showing to reasonable levels. I've yet to find a nicer bunch then the showing lot and have made some incredible friends through showing.
I'd invite you to my yard to see my hairy natives who are on thier winter break but you'd probably accuse me of cruelty because shock horror they dont have rugs on and it is cold and wet outside.
I dont even have a school so lunging for hours and hours isnt possible nor would riding them out for hours before a show. I certainly don't my ponies are all schooled whilst hacking, none have set foot in a sand school for years. I value my sleep too much so riding through the night isnt an option. My ponies are well schooled and well mannered enough that they can come off a lorry have 10 mins to warm their muscles up and then happily go in the ring and be sane and happy for the entire time. I've yet to come accross a showjumper whos horse is sane in company, or one who actualy knows the rules of a warm up ring. I've been run into countless times at lower level shows when my pony has been used as a brake!
I wont deny that some of that probably does happen, but you would be blind and biased if you didnt think other disciplines had just as many problems.
That sort of thing is not wide spread, it does not happen at most top yards. I've been showing for 15 years with a reasonable amount of success (nothing like FMM's success but i cant afford the quality of pony for that) and not come accross any of that sort of thing happening.
I have however been on top dressage yards where rolkur was one of the nicer training methods. I've seen a TOP dressage rider upend a schooling stick and use it on a horse until blood was drawn. I know this happens on that yard but i dont say that it happens on every top dressage yard.
I've heard of race horses who have been beaten black and blue with a metal pole because they dared to rear. So it happens on some race yards but not all.
you'd be foolish if you believed that rapping horses had died out in showjumping but i'm not going to go round and say all top horses have been rapped
You are tarring us all with the same brush and I hate that. I've competed in dressage, showjumping, eventing and showing to reasonable levels. I've yet to find a nicer bunch then the showing lot and have made some incredible friends through showing.
I'd invite you to my yard to see my hairy natives who are on thier winter break but you'd probably accuse me of cruelty because shock horror they dont have rugs on and it is cold and wet outside.
I dont even have a school so lunging for hours and hours isnt possible nor would riding them out for hours before a show. I certainly don't my ponies are all schooled whilst hacking, none have set foot in a sand school for years. I value my sleep too much so riding through the night isnt an option. My ponies are well schooled and well mannered enough that they can come off a lorry have 10 mins to warm their muscles up and then happily go in the ring and be sane and happy for the entire time. I've yet to come accross a showjumper whos horse is sane in company, or one who actualy knows the rules of a warm up ring. I've been run into countless times at lower level shows when my pony has been used as a brake!
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
Goodness me, well I just read through everything posted since last night and it seems I'm now the victim of a personal attack as I didn't single-handedly didn't put a stop to all of this stuff. OR because I just got bored one evening and made the whole thing up.
May I point out to those who are asking me why I didn't stop it, I'm not the only person who has witnessed these things occurring. Why didn't anyone else? I'll tell you why - there is nobody to tell. When the owners are hob-nobbing with officials and judges, who the hell is going to care what one of their live-in riders thinks about their production methods? When the RSCPA or similar is informed of anything, they contact the owner's vet (usually) to check the owner's record. The vet was providing the bute provided to keep the obese ponies capable of walking. The vet was there every few weeks tending to colic. The vet was in a better position to say something than me. Did he? No. So what would he say to the RSPCA?
The only person outside of the yard (other than people in the same situation and mindset as me at competitors' yards) was the mother of a child who rode one of the ponies at the yard. She seemed genuinely caring; they had ponies of their own who hadn't quite made the grade because, according to K (my YO), she was clueless and her kids couldn't and would never be able to ride. On mentioning to this lady that I was concerned about some of the things that were going on, she turned on me, said she knew this place well and that their ponies were treated like royalty... how dare I. (I lived there, I saw it every day, apparently she knew better.) In fact, she spoke to me pretty much the way some of you are now. "It would never happen." Turn a blind eye.
Two of the horses who died at the competitor's yard (one liver failure, one backflipped on the lunge) were reported by an "anonymous" member of their team (I have my suspicions
) but both were put down to accident. Again, we're nobodies, who wants to know what we think? They are the professional riders, they know better, we're just the bunny huggers.
The YO was like Jekyll and Hyde, especially with the ponies. She'd turn up on the yard once a week or so (the house was 200 metres from the stables) and talk to her ponies, attack us for the odd thing we'd done wrong etc. There was a colt named Tom, who she hated because his face was a bit too straight. Used to joke that he needed smacking in the head with a trowel... not that it'd surprise me if she'd actually done it. He was a sweet thing, a little handy with the back end in the paddock, but generally for a 7 month colt, a good boy.
Tom had, at 7 months, been brought in at night and rugged to prep him for the following season, and was pretty good, would just stand and watch proceedings. One day, K arrived at the yard, and fisticuffed him in the nose, making it bleed. Assuming I'd missed something (she'd never even risen her voice towards him before), I asked what he did wrong. She replied that you cannot have a COLT with its HEAD over the DOOR, stallions bite people's face off.
How the hell do you report that sort of thing? She was a manipulative bitch, of course to anyone who asked, the colt would have gone for her.
I should point out the head-to-tail tying was part of their breaking in system. It began with a very loose tying, for approx 5 minutes, and after a week or so the horse was left in a small paddock with its head tied right around until it was on the ground trying to free itself. Then it was "broken to the rein". Cowboys and stockmen do it, according to K. An age old method that works well. The horses were never hurt (God only knows how) - how do you report that?
They had a lovely, pretty little 13hh mare. She was ridden [in the ring] by a stroppy 12yo boy with a quick temper and nasty hands. You ever seen a headshy horse throw its head up and keep it there with the whites of its eyes showing? That's what this pony did when you took a rein contact.
The ponies weren't ridden at home in doubles, always snaffles with a tied up martingale to make sure the reins were holding its head in place. I always thought that was only as harsh as the rider, so was one thing I went along with. And I was given the pony as a project.
She was coming along slowly, softly softly, as long as I maintained contact and didn't move my hands at all. So K asked the kid to get on it in the school. Ten mins later we were back at square one, and they brought her in to slice her mouth. I didn't watch. K's daughter didn't seem comfortable, but K was in charge. She [daughter] said to me, "It's only because she's had kids with rough hands riding her so she can't feel her mouth anymore, it's gone numb. So, when it's sliced, it's only left as sensitive as it should be".
Why the f*** would I make that up? I don't think I'd have even been able to come up with that myself!
I lived there, and had nowhere else to go. When I finally cracked, I moved into a hostel until I found a flat. It's easy for you to sit behind your computers and ask me, a nobody, why I didn't do anything, but I was bullied into going along with it by the types of people who are bullying me now, on this thread, to shut up. There's not a lot that a nobody CAN do, and that's part of the problem. Oh, how I'd love to have an invisibility cloak (ala Harry Potter) and sneak back in now with a video camera. But still, who would I show the footage to? As someone mentioned, there is no FEI, no major governing body. Nobody gives a s***.
So, I apologise if I've offended anyone with my view of the showing world, but this is, sadly, what I have seen of it first hand. I suppose I was hoping that in beginning this thread, I would find that there are people at the top who know this stuff goes on and ARE kicking up a fuss to make sure things change. And there were a couple of you. But, on the whole, you've just been offended by it, or refused to believe it. That just saddens me. So, yet again, I give up.
To those of you who show and have respect for your animals - kudos and good luck to you.
Goodbye
May I point out to those who are asking me why I didn't stop it, I'm not the only person who has witnessed these things occurring. Why didn't anyone else? I'll tell you why - there is nobody to tell. When the owners are hob-nobbing with officials and judges, who the hell is going to care what one of their live-in riders thinks about their production methods? When the RSCPA or similar is informed of anything, they contact the owner's vet (usually) to check the owner's record. The vet was providing the bute provided to keep the obese ponies capable of walking. The vet was there every few weeks tending to colic. The vet was in a better position to say something than me. Did he? No. So what would he say to the RSPCA?
The only person outside of the yard (other than people in the same situation and mindset as me at competitors' yards) was the mother of a child who rode one of the ponies at the yard. She seemed genuinely caring; they had ponies of their own who hadn't quite made the grade because, according to K (my YO), she was clueless and her kids couldn't and would never be able to ride. On mentioning to this lady that I was concerned about some of the things that were going on, she turned on me, said she knew this place well and that their ponies were treated like royalty... how dare I. (I lived there, I saw it every day, apparently she knew better.) In fact, she spoke to me pretty much the way some of you are now. "It would never happen." Turn a blind eye.
Two of the horses who died at the competitor's yard (one liver failure, one backflipped on the lunge) were reported by an "anonymous" member of their team (I have my suspicions
The YO was like Jekyll and Hyde, especially with the ponies. She'd turn up on the yard once a week or so (the house was 200 metres from the stables) and talk to her ponies, attack us for the odd thing we'd done wrong etc. There was a colt named Tom, who she hated because his face was a bit too straight. Used to joke that he needed smacking in the head with a trowel... not that it'd surprise me if she'd actually done it. He was a sweet thing, a little handy with the back end in the paddock, but generally for a 7 month colt, a good boy.
Tom had, at 7 months, been brought in at night and rugged to prep him for the following season, and was pretty good, would just stand and watch proceedings. One day, K arrived at the yard, and fisticuffed him in the nose, making it bleed. Assuming I'd missed something (she'd never even risen her voice towards him before), I asked what he did wrong. She replied that you cannot have a COLT with its HEAD over the DOOR, stallions bite people's face off.
How the hell do you report that sort of thing? She was a manipulative bitch, of course to anyone who asked, the colt would have gone for her.
I should point out the head-to-tail tying was part of their breaking in system. It began with a very loose tying, for approx 5 minutes, and after a week or so the horse was left in a small paddock with its head tied right around until it was on the ground trying to free itself. Then it was "broken to the rein". Cowboys and stockmen do it, according to K. An age old method that works well. The horses were never hurt (God only knows how) - how do you report that?
They had a lovely, pretty little 13hh mare. She was ridden [in the ring] by a stroppy 12yo boy with a quick temper and nasty hands. You ever seen a headshy horse throw its head up and keep it there with the whites of its eyes showing? That's what this pony did when you took a rein contact.
The ponies weren't ridden at home in doubles, always snaffles with a tied up martingale to make sure the reins were holding its head in place. I always thought that was only as harsh as the rider, so was one thing I went along with. And I was given the pony as a project.
She was coming along slowly, softly softly, as long as I maintained contact and didn't move my hands at all. So K asked the kid to get on it in the school. Ten mins later we were back at square one, and they brought her in to slice her mouth. I didn't watch. K's daughter didn't seem comfortable, but K was in charge. She [daughter] said to me, "It's only because she's had kids with rough hands riding her so she can't feel her mouth anymore, it's gone numb. So, when it's sliced, it's only left as sensitive as it should be".
Why the f*** would I make that up? I don't think I'd have even been able to come up with that myself!
I lived there, and had nowhere else to go. When I finally cracked, I moved into a hostel until I found a flat. It's easy for you to sit behind your computers and ask me, a nobody, why I didn't do anything, but I was bullied into going along with it by the types of people who are bullying me now, on this thread, to shut up. There's not a lot that a nobody CAN do, and that's part of the problem. Oh, how I'd love to have an invisibility cloak (ala Harry Potter) and sneak back in now with a video camera. But still, who would I show the footage to? As someone mentioned, there is no FEI, no major governing body. Nobody gives a s***.
So, I apologise if I've offended anyone with my view of the showing world, but this is, sadly, what I have seen of it first hand. I suppose I was hoping that in beginning this thread, I would find that there are people at the top who know this stuff goes on and ARE kicking up a fuss to make sure things change. And there were a couple of you. But, on the whole, you've just been offended by it, or refused to believe it. That just saddens me. So, yet again, I give up.
To those of you who show and have respect for your animals - kudos and good luck to you.
Goodbye
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
To the OP what a total and utter load of rot. I'm offended and disgusted that you posted such total and utter rubbish, very obviously you have no idea what work goes on into producing a show horse and have probably taken a 3 legged nag into a ring and some poor judge has offended you by not placing it first.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's exactly what happened. Busted.
To the OP what a total and utter load of rot. I'm offended and disgusted that you posted such total and utter rubbish, very obviously you have no idea what work goes on into producing a show horse and have probably taken a 3 legged nag into a ring and some poor judge has offended you by not placing it first.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's exactly what happened. Busted.
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
I'm going to the darkside and I'm going to defend Munchkin
She/he is damn right-there is NO ONE to report it too.
In one of my previous posts I did say that I tried and low and behold it was ME that suffered.
Even a well known society didn't follow up on the phone call...
She/he is damn right-there is NO ONE to report it too.
In one of my previous posts I did say that I tried and low and behold it was ME that suffered.
Even a well known society didn't follow up on the phone call...
camilla4
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to the darkside and I'm going to defend Munchkin
She/he is damn right-there is NO ONE to report it too.
In one of my previous posts I did say that I tried and low and behold it was ME that suffered.
Even a well known society didn't follow up on the phone call...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm on the darkside here too! That's one thing I supported her on in one of my previous posts. The lack of a genuinely independent governing body in any discipline, not just equestrainism, will always create regulation problems. As I also said, I have no idea to what extent any of this does go on, but if it happens at all it is nothing short of an atrocity and it would be very sad if someone who had genuinely tried to act had failed just through lack of a reliable reporting structure.
I'm going to the darkside and I'm going to defend Munchkin
She/he is damn right-there is NO ONE to report it too.
In one of my previous posts I did say that I tried and low and behold it was ME that suffered.
Even a well known society didn't follow up on the phone call...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm on the darkside here too! That's one thing I supported her on in one of my previous posts. The lack of a genuinely independent governing body in any discipline, not just equestrainism, will always create regulation problems. As I also said, I have no idea to what extent any of this does go on, but if it happens at all it is nothing short of an atrocity and it would be very sad if someone who had genuinely tried to act had failed just through lack of a reliable reporting structure.
TGM
Well-Known Member
Oh dear - what a load of amateur dramatics - you haven't read any of the posts properly or responded to the majority of points made.
I made the point that you need to have PROOF of your allegations if you want to get the horse-loving public to take up your cause in the way they have with Rollkur. If someone gets the video evidence - and surely if it is widespread practice in all showing yards there must be someone with a video facility on their phone who could capture the proof - then get it on Youtube and publicise the incidents in the way people have done with Rollkur.
Are you really suggesting that we all get behind you and write letters to the governing bodies and the press on the basis that "this person called Munchkin on an internet forum says showing people are very cruel and I want you to do something about it"
I made the point that you need to have PROOF of your allegations if you want to get the horse-loving public to take up your cause in the way they have with Rollkur. If someone gets the video evidence - and surely if it is widespread practice in all showing yards there must be someone with a video facility on their phone who could capture the proof - then get it on Youtube and publicise the incidents in the way people have done with Rollkur.
Are you really suggesting that we all get behind you and write letters to the governing bodies and the press on the basis that "this person called Munchkin on an internet forum says showing people are very cruel and I want you to do something about it"
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Are you really suggesting that we all get behind you and write letters to the governing bodies and the press on the basis that "this person called Munchkin on an internet forum says showing people are very cruel and I want you to do something about it"
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha, of course not. I guess I'm having a little trouble believing I'm the only person who has seen any of this happening. Perhaps it was a bad dream :S
Are you really suggesting that we all get behind you and write letters to the governing bodies and the press on the basis that "this person called Munchkin on an internet forum says showing people are very cruel and I want you to do something about it"
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha, of course not. I guess I'm having a little trouble believing I'm the only person who has seen any of this happening. Perhaps it was a bad dream :S
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
Munchkin...PLEASE PLEASE read the posts....
YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PERSON!! SEVERAL OF US HAVE TOLD YOU WE HAVE SEEN IT HAPPEN!!! SOME OF US EVEN REPORTED IT!!!
Stop playing the martyr and READ THE DAMN POSTS PROPERLY!
YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PERSON!! SEVERAL OF US HAVE TOLD YOU WE HAVE SEEN IT HAPPEN!!! SOME OF US EVEN REPORTED IT!!!
Stop playing the martyr and READ THE DAMN POSTS PROPERLY!
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
Not playing martyr. I was just responding to the "there is no proof" and "you're making it up" camp.
I'm no longer in a position to capture this stuff on video, but somebody must be... I would really love to be able to, believe me I would! But I think if I were to go within 100 miles of their yard, I'd be lynched...
I'm no longer in a position to capture this stuff on video, but somebody must be... I would really love to be able to, believe me I would! But I think if I were to go within 100 miles of their yard, I'd be lynched...
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
Hmmm starting think that someone may not have been invited to a bonfire party last night and wanted to make her own fireworks.
FMM
Well-Known Member
OK - so from having said that ALL showing yards behave in that horrific way described in your original post, you are now only able to refer to a single yard. And not a terribly successful one if the producer only made it to the yard once a week. If you are so sure in your accusations, why not name the yard and let them argue the toss rather than accusing everyone in the showing world?
The yard owner in question presumably was a member of the BSPS so why did you not report it to them. There would have been no repercussions on you as you do not show, so what is there to have stopped you from doing that?
The yard owner in question presumably was a member of the BSPS so why did you not report it to them. There would have been no repercussions on you as you do not show, so what is there to have stopped you from doing that?
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
But you are not reading the posts...
Some of us HAVE tried to say something. Hell-I'd be happy to go work on a yard tomorrow and document some of the methods I saw IF I knew that I had someone I could present it to who was going to do something about it.
After an 'interesting' nights sleep I was all for fighting your cause but you are offending people left right and centre and to be honest you are alienating the people best placed to do something by your insistance to tar everyone with the same brush.
Some of us HAVE tried to say something. Hell-I'd be happy to go work on a yard tomorrow and document some of the methods I saw IF I knew that I had someone I could present it to who was going to do something about it.
After an 'interesting' nights sleep I was all for fighting your cause but you are offending people left right and centre and to be honest you are alienating the people best placed to do something by your insistance to tar everyone with the same brush.
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
Defending Munchkin....again LOL
Just been PM'ed a pic of pony and name of producer-hope you don't mind me doing this M?
Sadly producer is VERY well known.
Please don't PM as I'm not going to say who it is-thats for M to decide. Have to say, I'm speechless that this producer was involved but sadly can believe it.
Just been PM'ed a pic of pony and name of producer-hope you don't mind me doing this M?
Sadly producer is VERY well known.
Please don't PM as I'm not going to say who it is-thats for M to decide. Have to say, I'm speechless that this producer was involved but sadly can believe it.
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
And not a terribly successful one if the producer only made it to the yard once a week.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me make it a little clearer - her house was approx 1.5 minutes walk from the stables. Which are at her house. She always showed her face at shows, but at home, everything was left to everyone else, apart from when she popped in to shout at people/ponies. Wouldn't want to break a nail now
And not a terribly successful one if the producer only made it to the yard once a week.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me make it a little clearer - her house was approx 1.5 minutes walk from the stables. Which are at her house. She always showed her face at shows, but at home, everything was left to everyone else, apart from when she popped in to shout at people/ponies. Wouldn't want to break a nail now
FMM
Well-Known Member
The point I was making was that a producer would be on the yard every day as each horse or pony would need something doing - feed regime changing, trimming decisions, schooling etc - can't see how a "proper" producer would only be able to turn up once a week!
Janette
Well-Known Member
OP seems to have taken her personal experiences as general to the Showing World....You have made such sweeping statements about anybody who enters a showing class. Grow up - you cannot go throwing accusations about without proof that they are correct.
You say you have seen these things happening? Well that may be so - but not on the yard where I keep my horse, or any of the yards which I visit. Which means that you are incorrect. Not 'everybody' takes part in these activities! Perhaps some do (personally I've never seen it), but not EVERYBODY.
You mentioned Rolkur - again not 'everybody' practices this technique. Sweeping statements. Get a grip.
You say you have seen these things happening? Well that may be so - but not on the yard where I keep my horse, or any of the yards which I visit. Which means that you are incorrect. Not 'everybody' takes part in these activities! Perhaps some do (personally I've never seen it), but not EVERYBODY.
You mentioned Rolkur - again not 'everybody' practices this technique. Sweeping statements. Get a grip.
latottwirl
Well-Known Member
I would dearly dearly LOVE to know who this producer is - I have been thinking all afternoon about who this person may be, having been on several yards, and I have absolutely no idea because I've never seen ANY of that stuff go on.....hmm
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The point I was making was that a producer would be on the yard every day as each horse or pony would need something doing - feed regime changing, trimming decisions, schooling etc - can't see how a "proper" producer would only be able to turn up once a week!
[/ QUOTE ] Her daughter was on the yard every day (should probably point out that daughter is in 30's, not child) - K was in charge, and owned the ponies, the daughter would oversee what was doing on on a daily basis. Not even sure why I'm arguing about this, it's hardly relevant.
Janette:
[ QUOTE ]
You have made such sweeping statements about anybody who enters a showing class.
[/ QUOTE ] Anybody who enters a showing class. I've entered a showing class. Untrue comment.
[ QUOTE ]
Grow up
[/ QUOTE ] I'm sorry but I'm angry. I lost sleep over what I saw. I envy you in your little bubble of lovely people and ponies.
[ QUOTE ]
You mentioned Rolkur - again not 'everybody' practices this technique. Sweeping statements. Get a grip.
[/ QUOTE ] Where on EARTH did I say everyone practices Rollkur? Now you've lost me completely... I think perhaps we're reading different threads.
Do not tell me to get a grip. I have a problem with what I have seen, I'm angry and upset and I have every right to be.
The point I was making was that a producer would be on the yard every day as each horse or pony would need something doing - feed regime changing, trimming decisions, schooling etc - can't see how a "proper" producer would only be able to turn up once a week!
[/ QUOTE ] Her daughter was on the yard every day (should probably point out that daughter is in 30's, not child) - K was in charge, and owned the ponies, the daughter would oversee what was doing on on a daily basis. Not even sure why I'm arguing about this, it's hardly relevant.
Janette:
[ QUOTE ]
You have made such sweeping statements about anybody who enters a showing class.
[/ QUOTE ] Anybody who enters a showing class. I've entered a showing class. Untrue comment.
[ QUOTE ]
Grow up
[/ QUOTE ] I'm sorry but I'm angry. I lost sleep over what I saw. I envy you in your little bubble of lovely people and ponies.
[ QUOTE ]
You mentioned Rolkur - again not 'everybody' practices this technique. Sweeping statements. Get a grip.
[/ QUOTE ] Where on EARTH did I say everyone practices Rollkur? Now you've lost me completely... I think perhaps we're reading different threads.
Do not tell me to get a grip. I have a problem with what I have seen, I'm angry and upset and I have every right to be.
FMM
Well-Known Member
How long ago was it that you left this yard? I got the impression (although every impression from your original post seems to have changed) that you had left some time ago. If so, if you are still so angry and upset, why not really do something about it?
Munchkin
Well-Known Member
Left October 2007
I've actually surprised myself by saying that... it doesn't seem two minutes ago but yes, was definitely Oct '07
Please tell me what I can do. Because I'm at a loss. As long as horses are fed and watered, nobody [who can do anything about it] cares about anything else that happens to them... do they?
I've actually surprised myself by saying that... it doesn't seem two minutes ago but yes, was definitely Oct '07
Please tell me what I can do. Because I'm at a loss. As long as horses are fed and watered, nobody [who can do anything about it] cares about anything else that happens to them... do they?
FMM
Well-Known Member
The welfare part of the BHS would be interested. And I would also contact the BSPS which, as a registered charity, should be able to point you in the right direction.
If you have been this angry for two years, I cannot believe you have said nothing over that period of time.
If you have been this angry for two years, I cannot believe you have said nothing over that period of time.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
In general i do think people have over-reacted to the OP. She had had a glass of wine or three last night, so maybe that blurred some responses. However, i didnt take her post literally, as an accusation that every single person involved in showing is corrupt.
When i first saw some of these things i would never have believed it if i hadnt seen them first hand. But i have seen them and i wouldnt say i was that heavily involved in showing, as some are on here. I dont believe it happens everywhere but i do know that poor welfare is widespread.
For those asking for proof, it is hard to speak out, as woopsi and munchkin have said. Loss of livelihood, home, chances of ever competing fairly, etc are strong reasons to be put off complaining. I know someone who complained to HOYs about the level of sedation in some ponies so the ponies could be tested by the vets at the competition. NOTHING was done. I dont know why but the ponies in question still went in the ring, came out with rosettes and went home un-tested. I know of another WH pony with laminitis that was jumped at high level on bute, again tip offs were ignored because of associations!
Yes, there has been a height crack down and obesity has improved but i think OP was just trying to get rid of some demons after a glass of wine. I think its a good thing as a few people have said they had no idea. Just because there is no video on you tube (yet) doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I actually applaud munchkin for raising awareness. So what if she should have done it 2 years ago, there were obviously personal reasons why she didnt.
For those who show without compromising the welfare of their horses, good on you, it shows it can be done. But please dont be offended that someone has said your sport is less than clean. You should carry on as you are to show not everyone is bad. And also realise that as with other disciplines, and happy hackers, abuse does occur and people do allow it for selfish reasons.
When i first saw some of these things i would never have believed it if i hadnt seen them first hand. But i have seen them and i wouldnt say i was that heavily involved in showing, as some are on here. I dont believe it happens everywhere but i do know that poor welfare is widespread.
For those asking for proof, it is hard to speak out, as woopsi and munchkin have said. Loss of livelihood, home, chances of ever competing fairly, etc are strong reasons to be put off complaining. I know someone who complained to HOYs about the level of sedation in some ponies so the ponies could be tested by the vets at the competition. NOTHING was done. I dont know why but the ponies in question still went in the ring, came out with rosettes and went home un-tested. I know of another WH pony with laminitis that was jumped at high level on bute, again tip offs were ignored because of associations!
Yes, there has been a height crack down and obesity has improved but i think OP was just trying to get rid of some demons after a glass of wine. I think its a good thing as a few people have said they had no idea. Just because there is no video on you tube (yet) doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I actually applaud munchkin for raising awareness. So what if she should have done it 2 years ago, there were obviously personal reasons why she didnt.
For those who show without compromising the welfare of their horses, good on you, it shows it can be done. But please dont be offended that someone has said your sport is less than clean. You should carry on as you are to show not everyone is bad. And also realise that as with other disciplines, and happy hackers, abuse does occur and people do allow it for selfish reasons.
TGM
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
This stuff is normal, everyday showing producing and I couldn't count the number of times I heard "yes we know it's cruel but it works"...
[/ QUOTE ] This is a quote from the OP's opening post - I don't think the replies are over-reacting in the light of that statement. Is she now retracting that statement and just saying it was due to the amount of alcohol she had consumed?
This stuff is normal, everyday showing producing and I couldn't count the number of times I heard "yes we know it's cruel but it works"...
[/ QUOTE ] This is a quote from the OP's opening post - I don't think the replies are over-reacting in the light of that statement. Is she now retracting that statement and just saying it was due to the amount of alcohol she had consumed?
teddyt
Well-Known Member
But in some yards some of these things ARE normal. Not in every yard but yes, in many. They dont think anything of feeding conditioning mix, barley, oats, etc to 11hh ponies. its everyday stuff, followed by calmers and in some cases drugs to counteract the mental and physical reaction to such feed.
One year at HOYS, in the warm up for either first ridden or lead rein (cant remember which) i counted just TWO snaffles! Every pony was being ridden in either draw reins or some other gadget too. I couldnt believe my eyes at first, i was so disappointed.
I have seen ponies in stables at RIHS with their heads tied between their chest.
As i said, i am not that heavily into showing as many people on here are but i saw this sort of thing on a regular basis.
Have a look through the bins in the stable yard of big shows- bucket loads of syringes of calmers and evidence of drugs!
One year at HOYS, in the warm up for either first ridden or lead rein (cant remember which) i counted just TWO snaffles! Every pony was being ridden in either draw reins or some other gadget too. I couldnt believe my eyes at first, i was so disappointed.
I have seen ponies in stables at RIHS with their heads tied between their chest.
As i said, i am not that heavily into showing as many people on here are but i saw this sort of thing on a regular basis.
Have a look through the bins in the stable yard of big shows- bucket loads of syringes of calmers and evidence of drugs!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Just read whole thread, I can see how these things filter down though, a friend was given some 'interesting' advice by a judge to get more topline on her welsh cob (who is overweight) I think it was to lift herself off the ground by hanging on the cobs neck and she should be able to do that for 5 minutes (ish I dont remember exactly!) at a time if she built it up. In truth horse just needed to do some flatwork.
TGM
Well-Known Member
But that is not what the OP said in her opening post - she said this was "normal, everyday show producing" so I can quite understand why people like FMM who is based at what must be one of the most successful showing yards at the moment, felt that the ethics of herself and those of the yard were being brought into question.
If the OP meant that these practices are standard in SOME showing yards, or perhaps just the ONE she worked at, or perhaps just at show pony yards, then she needs to clarify that and perhaps apologise to the people she included in her blanket generalisation.
I quite agree that such practices are totally unacceptable, but no-one can act unless someone comes up with some proof of what goes on. Nearly all mobile phones have a camera facility these days so if you see ponies with their heads tied down in a stable at a show, have the balls to take a photo, take a shot of the bins etc. Get some real concrete proof and go to the press and I'm sure you'll generate as much interest as that created by Rollkur.
If the OP meant that these practices are standard in SOME showing yards, or perhaps just the ONE she worked at, or perhaps just at show pony yards, then she needs to clarify that and perhaps apologise to the people she included in her blanket generalisation.
I quite agree that such practices are totally unacceptable, but no-one can act unless someone comes up with some proof of what goes on. Nearly all mobile phones have a camera facility these days so if you see ponies with their heads tied down in a stable at a show, have the balls to take a photo, take a shot of the bins etc. Get some real concrete proof and go to the press and I'm sure you'll generate as much interest as that created by Rollkur.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
I guess i took it differently. I didnt take the OP as meaning every yard. Just the way i read it.
Im not involved in showing much anymore, not at top level, anyway. If i was, yes i would take photos but i dont go to big shows anymore. If i see it at the few county shows i now go too then i will! Generally now though i just do a class and go home, im not around the stables and showground for days as i used to be, so less chance of getting evidence. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and i was younger then, not so opinionated and i wouldnt even have thought about taking photos.
If there were any bored investigative journalists out there though....
Im not involved in showing much anymore, not at top level, anyway. If i was, yes i would take photos but i dont go to big shows anymore. If i see it at the few county shows i now go too then i will! Generally now though i just do a class and go home, im not around the stables and showground for days as i used to be, so less chance of getting evidence. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and i was younger then, not so opinionated and i wouldnt even have thought about taking photos.
If there were any bored investigative journalists out there though....