thermal scanning for lameness

[PipsqueakXy22]

Hi so a horse im riding at the moment has been lame for around 3 months. He is 19 years old so an older horse. In february he was given 4 weekly doses of catrophen, then last month he got his coffin joints injected. He has had this done around 2 years ago which seemed to work, and since then he had been in light work (i.e. hacking and intro/prelim dressage, a bit of showing etc...), and was given a joint supplement which seemed to keep him ticking along just fine.
This time however, its not worked and he is still lame. He is not very lame, looks sound in walk, can slightly see lameness in trot,id say maybe 2 or 3/10ths lame in the front left. Oddly enough when he first went lame 3 months ago it was his front right. Still acts like a lunatic in the field, but when riding he is definitely not quite right. I was planning to give him another two weeks off before getting the vet again.
However, I just saw an advert for a lady who does thermal scanning for horses. I was wondering if this might be beneficial to do for him? From what ive read it shows areas which there is increased blood flow, and might help pin point where the lameness is coming from.
I just wondered if anyone has had experience of thermal scanning before and is it worth doing?
I am not in any rush to ride him, and if full retirement is what is best for him then so be it. However, I do want to try my best to get to the bottom of his lameness of course.

 

[Melody Grey]

Disclaimer: I’ve never used thermal
Scanning, though when I’ve had conversations with vets about it, they’ve not been positive. They’re not definitive enough- increased temperature or blood flow can be for a variety of reasons, so based on that, I’d just go back to the vet.

 

[Red-1]

Rather than a lady with a thermal scammer, I would rather pay a qualified vet to repeat the nerve block/X ray/ultrasound scan/ lameness workup on hard and soft, uphill and down. I would include flexion tests.

 

[AmyMay]

Rather than a lady with a thermal scammer, I would rather pay a qualified vet to repeat the nerve block/X ray/ultrasound scan/ lameness workup on hard and soft, uphill and down. I would include flexion tests.

Obviously this

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

Rather than a lady with a thermal scammer, I would rather pay a qualified vet to repeat the nerve block/X ray/ultrasound scan/ lameness workup on hard and soft, uphill and down. I would include flexion tests.

obviously that is a lot more expensive so before I splash out I was just wondering if the thermal scanner would be worth a shot first, but so far I’m guessing it’s a no.

 

[AmyMay]

obviously that is a lot more expensive so before I splash out I was just wondering if the thermal scanner would be worth a shot first, but so far I’m guessing it’s a no.

Is veterinary care ‘splashing out’?

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

Is veterinary care ‘splashing out’?

Im willing to pay whatever is necessary. But obviously if there is a cheaper alternative I would try it.

 

[Red-1]

obviously that is a lot more expensive so before I splash out I was just wondering if the thermal scanner would be worth a shot first, but so far I’m guessing it’s a no.

The trouble is, for instance, if the horse was lame on the near fore, but putting more weight on the off fore, causing it to be twisted or whatever, the off fore could show heat due to being used unusually. You may then think the off fore had the issue.

Or, if one foot was warm and the other cold, you may think the warm foot was the faulty one, whereas, with feet, it may be the cold one that has the issue of less circulation.

The heat just shows that - heat. Not what the problem is or where.

 

[Red-1]

What qualifications does the lady have?

BTW, you can buy a heat scanner for your phone!

 

[Red-1]

In fact, here is a stand alone one for under £100 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PerfectPrime-IR0280H-Infrared-32%C2%B0C-42%C2%B0C-Detection/dp/B087WVLWHZ/ref=psdc_6286446031_t3_B094S3N7GF?th=1

We could all set up in business!

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

What qualifications does the lady have?

BTW, you can buy a heat scanner for your phone!

A degree (but not a vet) from what I can see, but I understand what you’re saying, will just stick with the vet, thanks

 

[Red-1]

A degree (but not a vet) from what I can see, but I understand what you’re saying, will just stick with the vet, thanks

What is the degree in (genuinely curious)?

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

What is the degree in (genuinely curious)?

Just says BSc so I’m not sure

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

You would want to thermal scan every day for a fortnight to gauge what is normal for your horse so you can figure out what changes.

Doing a thermal scan will only show you the hot spots for that day. Your horse could knock his fetlock 10 strides away from his scan and his fetlock will show up as a hotspot.

Total waste of time for the most part.

 

[Sossigpoker]

All the thermal scan will show is where the temperature of the tissue is higher or lower than elsewhere. If your horse stands with his right side to the sun , his right side will be warmer.
These scans have zero value as a diagnostic , even if it showed that a joint area was warm , you'd then need to pay your vet to x-ray it anyway. And the vet will probably not agree to do so unless there are clinical signs of the joint having an issue.
If your horse is lame,.investigate it medically and properly,.these fads are just that.

 

[HG95]

If the thermal scan did show anything they can't actually treat it anyway so you'd be in the same position just however many pounds down as you'd need the vet anyway

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

All the thermal scan will show is where the temperature of the tissue is higher or lower than elsewhere. If your horse stands with his right side to the sun , his right side will be warmer.
These scans have zero value as a diagnostic , even if it showed that a joint area was warm , you'd then need to pay your vet to x-ray it anyway. And the vet will probably not agree to do so unless there are clinical signs of the joint having an issue.
If your horse is lame,.investigate it medically and properly,.these fads are just that.

I thought this was a medical thing so I didn’t realise

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

If the thermal scan did show anything they can't actually treat it anyway so you'd be in the same position just however many pounds down as you'd need the vet anyway

I guess I had a suspicion it was too good to be true. But had maybe thought if this “thermal scan” can find where the root of the lameness is it would save me nerve blocking his leg, and both legs since it’s been both left and right. But if that’s what we have to do then that’s fine too. Having just seen the ad and reading a few articles it sounded like it was worth a shot, but I understand now why it’s a waste of money.

 

[HG95]

The vet would do a workup anyway I doubt they'd take thermal imaging as a definite diagnosis of where the problem was they'd still have to nerve block to find the exact site of the lameness

 

[Rob1585]

If it worked vets would be doing thermal scans! It’s much safer/cheaper/easier than injecting local into hind legs of annoyed horses! Also a pair of hands are actually really good thermal testers, the significant hot spots picked up by thermal scanners can often be felt!

 

[Sossigpoker]

I thought this was a medical thing so I didn’t realise

It literally just gives a temperature range of the tissue. Anyone can buy a thermal imaging camera and do it.
If it had medical value , it would be used by vets /doctors

 

[Sossigpoker]

This is what they are.

Everything You Need To Know About Thermal Imaging Cameras | RS

In our comprehensive guide, we look at what thermal imaging cameras are, how they work and what they’re used for, as well as the different types that are available on the market.

uk.rs-online.com

 

[Birker2020]

Disclaimer: I’ve never used thermal
Scanning, though when I’ve had conversations with vets about it, they’ve not been positive. They’re not definitive enough- increased temperature or blood flow can be for a variety of reasons, so based on that, I’d just go back to the vet.

I agree based on a conversation with a professional about this. Too many variations in temperature. For example if a horse has travelled with a rug on the rug needs to be removed long before the thermogrophy imaging is carried out or it can give false positives.

I'd have thought nerve blocks carried out by your vet would be a more useful diagnostic tool.

 

[Lady Jane]

Thermal imaging can show 'hot spots' but that won't necessarily be the source of the pain. To prepare a horse to get meaningful data requires knowledge (how long they need to be in the right enviroment to ensure no climatic impactic on the body), and good knowledge of the right equipment. Many cameras have insufficient sensitivity and you need high resolution graphs to get any meaningful data. I would start with your vet

 

[Goldenstar]

As above hot spots just spot heat not pain .
I had one horse who presented in the field unable to move after much to do we got him to the nearest hospital .
After much too and throwing they used a thermal camera on him show massive hot area around hips SI the whole top of the back area .
I was adamant from the start this was secondary but Whatever this was the problem they treated him with anti inflammatory drugs and in three days they wanted to discharge him .
I said I would take him home if he remained comfortable with out the drugs they with drew the drugs and within three hours he was back to how he was when we found him .
I made them refer him for full body bone scanning he had broken his fore rib imaging just slowed us down finding the problem .

 

[Slightlyconfused]

If you go down that route go with a company that works with vets like Vet-IR. I know one.of the ladys and they always give their report to the vet to follow up on.


Also does your vet have a lamenesa sensor? That is another route to go down.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Dunno if any good mentioning this (haven't read other replies here), but my vets are now offering something called "Equinosis" for gait analysis (and lameness diagnosis).

Not cheap; but we got ours for £100 as it was a special deal from a client evening the practice held recently where the Head Practitioner was doing a lecture on lameness and associated issues.

The vet put a sensor on her poll, foreleg, and sacro-iliac area; and we got a print-out of exactly how she was moving and what might be causing any issues.

Highly recommend this! Don't know what the "full price" is, but it'd be something well worth considering. I was certainly very impressed - and it solved the mystery of why we have been unable to achieve accurate canter-lead.

 

[Chianti]

I've just booked to have my pony scanned. I wasn't sure whether to, or not, but then found two webinars on the subject in Dr. David Marlin's group given by Helen Reynolds.
He seemed very positive about it as a possible part of a process to identify issues. Dr. Marlin is very science based. On his Facebook page he's often asked his opinion of various supplements and will give an honest opinion as to whether or not they contain any ingredients that might actually help. Helen Reynolds kept emphasizing that she can't make a diagnosis but she can alert vets/farriers to areas that might be the source of a problem. The main problem seems to be that there are people who are either unqualified or have a poor level of qualification going around doing the scans. If you want to see the webinars you can join Dr. Marlin's group. It's really worth the money!