Thieving Scumbag Facebook shoplifters- Rant follows

Thank you. It's the way of the world. What has been very gratifying for me is to sit back and take account of the many many people who have gone out of their way over the last week to get in touch with their thoughts and offering support etc. It has certainly got many people chattering amongst the local SJ community and a few parents looking at their ickle darlings FB accounts. So the message is communicating across and will continue to do so.

There are many good, honest and ethical people out there and a lot of them are my customers :-)
 
spidge said:
Rambo, they're up complete with enhanced watermark, nothing too offensive.

PM me your choice and I'll send you some FB style images to get your thoughts.

http://www.spidge.co.uk/2010_Gallery/Equestrian/BSJA/Seniors/Felbridge/Saturday_10th_July_2010/
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Some super shots there of Bo on the saturday....have PM'd you with details of some of them....would like to compare low-res with and without watermark before deciding which to go for though :)

Hope it was a fruitful weekend for you...and even my OH noticed the new pricing strategy so well done.
 
You know those keyring things - do you think it would be possible to ask about having the same mini photos but without the keyring? Same price....? I love the mini pictures but once in a keyring they can't go in an album or anything, and when used, the keyring breaks/gets wet etc and the photos are lost. Most of our local photographers do them.
 
mystiandsunny said:
You know those keyring things - do you think it would be possible to ask about having the same mini photos but without the keyring? Same price....?
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This should not be difficult for most photographers and as this thread has shown us photographers can also learn from our customers. Are you thinking of a sheet of 4 or 8 of these images?

Mike
 
Rambo your pix of Bo with Louise onboard are with you by email, please confirm receipt as not sure I have your most recent address.

They're FOC by the way, thank you for your efforts on the forum, kept various people amused defacing your images. Still no silver bullet so it seems.
 
Just so you know I am now emailing all photographers whom I like to see if they do the option of facebook images. (Although have received RIDICULOUS prices! £15?) What do you charge?
 
£3 low res watermarked, £5 low res non watermarked, £15 high res jpeg.

To be honest I am unlikely to drop much on these prices, well I might for orders in excess of 5+. I know I definitely did for the young lady who ordered 25 FB images from me.

The dilemma for the photographer is twofold. It is to balance the loss of income from not selling a print at £10 for a 6x9 print which seems to be a generic price nationwide if one had to choose a benchmark figure against selling a FB suitable image for £3 that will display well on a computer screen or PDA but not print well. If the quality of the low res jpeg is too high then you can get a reasonable print from it even on a home laser.

My site explicitly says suitable for FB etc but not printing yet I am still getting customers mail me saying these don't print well to A4 size. Well duhhh... It's all about expectations, if you want a decent A4 size print then pay for it.

Boogles thank you for the explanation. Yes I think word is spreading and more people are talking to their photographers about products, pricing etc. It would be a shame to see equine photographers on the endangered species list!
 
I do some event photography occasionally to help feed my camera equipment addiction. I'd echo what others have said that £10 for a print is not expensive when you consider the camera and lens costs (possibly £2.5k or more if you do indoors in the winter without a flash), time, travelling, software etc.
I don't buy the idea that if prints were cheaper we'd sell more and people would steal less. My photos are quite a lot cheaper than elsewhere as I don't do it purely for a living and my overheads are small (internet only ordering, 3rd party printing etc) and I don't sell many (if any) more than the numbers mentioned here. If you make things too cheap then they are perceived as having little value and the profit margins become so slim it's not worth going out in the first place. I do some competing locally and am disappointed when a photographer is not there but I can understand why.
The argument that just selling jpgs should be much cheaper has to be countered with that by selling the image electronically you are losing potential sales (especially at larger print sizes where the biggest margin is) and multiple sales, unless you sell them at quite a low resolution.

I agree that BSJA shows can be a bust - unaffiliated local shows are usually more profitable.

For watermarking I use pictureshark before uploading to my site. There's always a balance to be struck between spoiling the image for people ripping it off and making it so difficult to see that no-one buys it anyway.
It makes me laugh that people will spend hours removing a watermark instead of just spending £10 to buy it - how much is their time worth?

Ed
 
I always thought that horsey types were generaly poor at business and out of touch with reality but you Horse photographers seem to have taken it to a new level."Yes I think word is spreading and more people are talking to their photographers about products, pricing etc. It would be a shame to see equine photographers on the endangered species list!".Good grief!A good equine photographer should have no problem staying in business providing they understand who and where their market is and what the customer wants and is prepared to pay for.The photographer should be the one actively seeking to understand the market,not the otherway round.
 
ch70 said:
Just catching up on the last couple of pages of comments. Proves a point I made earlier, people base their opinions of "all photographers" on their experiences with one or two, i.e. they taint all of us with the same brush whether that be a good or bad experience. There is almost an assumption that we all work the same way, sell at the same prices and offer the same services which of course we don't. Lots of factors dictate what each company can offer and what they need to charge to make ends meet.
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Yep and this is demonstrated very well by the following. I've lost any sympathy :D

mike weeks said:
You can get everything else wrong but dont get the colour of the horse wrong so a B&W preview will not be beneficial.
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Spurious.

mike weeks said:
Have you not read some of the answers here even when infringers (thieves) have this pointed out to them. Most cant see the big pricing signs so I am sure they would not read a copyright notice.
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Dismissive reply and doesn't address the small claims point.

mike weeks said:
Read above about price signs.
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Again dismissive but nothing else.

mike weeks said:
I need the time to do my own work and imagine the scenario where I print off somebody elses shot and charge £1 and I charge £10 for my own or can you see Joe Public paying me £10 for printing a 9x6 from their camera phone?

Always good to look at ideas but they have to work.

Mike
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Again, not really considering the suggestion.

You don't want any suggestions to facilitate your business, you think you know it all already. You're probably one of those people that's only happy when they've got something to complain about. Good luck with that attitude.
 
Mike007 said:
I always thought that horsey types were generaly poor at business and out of touch with reality but you Horse photographers seem to have taken it to a new level."Yes I think word is spreading and more people are talking to their photographers about products, pricing etc. It would be a shame to see equine photographers on the endangered species list!".Good grief!A good equine photographer should have no problem staying in business providing they understand who and where their market is and what the customer wants and is prepared to pay for.The photographer should be the one actively seeking to understand the market,not the otherway round.
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Most of the photographers on here have been working in this business many many years. They have over that time worked out what their customers want and have been providing that. I have worked in product innovation for some very large corporates over the years so I know about market research campaigns and product variations. Good photographers will always be listening to their customers and also taking note of market trends.

The problem here is not the same at all, it's generally not that the photographers are not providing what the customer requires. It's that the customer expects something for nothing. There is a "market value" for photographic images and in reality the photos sold at events are already generally a lot lower priced. If you scan the net for the cost of a portraits for example you will see that you pay approx £40 + for one 8x10 image.

The market is the same, the delivery of the product is what has changed. People wanted to buy online for the convenience and flexibility that it provides them. So the photographers have provided that, however that has then led to the very issue this thread was started for. The advent of Facebook (not to say this wasn't happening before FB but the visibility is exponentially higher now) be it good or bad has led to considerable copyright breaches and "potential" loss of income.

Although it must be said, a majority of customers do buy images, it's a small number who abuse the system and they will always do whatever they can to justify why they do that.
 
Mike007 said:
I always thought that horsey types were generaly poor at business and out of touch with reality but you Horse photographers seem to have taken it to a new level."Yes I think word is spreading and more people are talking to their photographers about products, pricing etc. It would be a shame to see equine photographers on the endangered species list!".Good grief!A good equine photographer should have no problem staying in business providing they understand who and where their market is and what the customer wants and is prepared to pay for.The photographer should be the one actively seeking to understand the market,not the otherway round.
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Here's another facebook comment relating to some of mine

laura really good photos, how do you get them off copywrite and on to fb?? i cant do it!! lol
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It's not to do with understanding the market, it's to do with preventing theft but I'm starting to get the feeling that you either don't understand that or, more likely, don't care.

Edit: That should really read it's not ONLY to do with understanding the market. But, if you've disabled right click, provided multiple product options which do sell, give customers low cost face book options and they still take screen prints I'm not sure what else a photographer can do??!!.
 
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I have one local photographer that I nearly always buy at least 1 photo from, yet very rarely any others. I buy from her because she'll email me the full quality original image for £5 or a full set of all taken for I think(£35) on CD. Almot all the others won't sell the full quality image at all or charge around £40, I won't pay this unless the photo is some kind of amazing thing and as yet have not seen this so never but at all.

Given that every event seems to have a photographer these days and most people can't afford to spend much on photograhy I think it is definately better to go for the sell more cheap option than sell few/none at higher prices.
 
Let me give you an analogy.
When I go to a show,part of my day out is a cup of tea and a Burger (with onions). I want a reasonable burger at a fair price and not to have to queue for long. I do not want a resturant meal. If I go to a resturant I will choose the time and place,and I cant afford to do this often. I also dont expect to have to pay a resturant price for my burger.
I would be very upset to arrive at a show and find that only resturant food or gourmet posh burgers at resturant prices ( and a very slow queue) were on offer.I would probably steal a couple of bread rolls and walk off in a huff:D.
I have just been looking at some proof photos from a sponsored ride I went to last year,as I wondered why I never bought a photo. I quickly remembered why. Because they were the equvalent of a cheap nasty burger,badly cooked, which arrived stale and all at a high class resturant price.To cap it all the cook thinks he is a great resturanteur.
 
Mike007 said:
Let me give you an analogy.
When I go to a show,part of my day out is a cup of tea and a Burger (with onions). I want a reasonable burger at a fair price and not to have to queue for long. I do not want a resturant meal. If I go to a resturant I will choose the time and place,and I cant afford to do this often. I also dont expect to have to pay a resturant price for my burger.
I would be very upset to arrive at a show and find that only resturant food or gourmet posh burgers at resturant prices ( and a very slow queue) were on offer.I would probably steal a couple of bread rolls and walk off in a huff:D.
I have just been looking at some proof photos from a sponsored ride I went to last year,as I wondered why I never bought a photo. I quickly remembered why. Because they were the equvalent of a cheap nasty burger,badly cooked, which arrived stale and all at a high class resturant price.To cap it all the cook thinks he is a great resturanteur.
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So, to summarise, you condone theft?
 
Easy Mike, I was just going to add that I did not think you were inferring or implying that.

What I thought you were saying was perhaps that you felt some photographers get carried away with their own importance, pricing etc when in reality the product of image and product that they are producing does not in fact justify their own opinion of themselves or certainly their pricing.

Most equine togs are small outfits so although we have similarities, we are not in fact all the same. Surely this thread has demonstrated that a lot of photographers are in fact really innovative and responsive to their customers needs, expectations etc.
 
I absolutely agree with you spidge.I know two equine photographers with entirely different styles. One is a seeker of elegant portrait photos (and is very good at it). The other is more of a hunter,after the action shots ,and he gets some remarkable photos. Both are innovative and realistic. Both apply a huge amount of skill and hard work.Unfortunately there are also some awfull "picture takers"out there.
The public have been so inundated with photos on the internet.I wonder how many hundreds of thousands appear on the internet each weekend.Is it any wonder that they have been devalued.It is as much theft to charge your mobile phone at work,as to steal a television .Some people are naturaly theives,but they are fortuntely a very small minority, If a business is suffering a lot from theft ,the first question should be ,what am I doing wrong , what have I missed,rather than why has everyone suddenly become dishonest.
Facebook is a very immediate form of social interaction . The value of an immage to your clients ,for facebook dimminishes rapidly with time.If Facebook is how your clients interact with their friends ,they want immages FAST. This is why some will simply post copyrighted images,or spend time(10 minutes at best) cleaning up your immages.Sure ,it is wrong but it is a matter of perspective.
I hadnt realised until a couple of nights ago ,just how immediate facebook is to some younger people. A couple of pigs got loose from a farm next door to a yard I was visiting . So we went and rounded them up. By the time we got back,the YO,s daughter had already got our pig hunting on facebook.
 
Mike007 said:
Unfortunately there are also some awfull "picture takers"out there.
The public have been so inundated with photos on the internet.I wonder how many hundreds of thousands appear on the internet each weekend.Is it any wonder that they have been devalued.It is as much theft to charge your mobile phone at work,as to steal a television .Some people are naturaly theives,but they are fortuntely a very small minority, If a business is suffering a lot from theft ,the first question should be ,what am I doing wrong , what have I missed,rather than why has everyone suddenly become dishonest.
Facebook is a very immediate form of social interaction . The value of an immage to your clients ,for facebook dimminishes rapidly with time.If Facebook is how your clients interact with their friends ,they want immages FAST. This is why some will simply post copyrighted images,or spend time(10 minutes at best) cleaning up your immages.Sure ,it is wrong but it is a matter of perspective.
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Agree that there is an avalanche of images but the customer is more discerning because of this avalanche. Why do togs web site viewing stats show hundreds of visits for an event but relatively few conversions into sales? Good images are highly valued, hence the widespread theft that occurs on pro togs web sites. What am I doing wrong? If I provide comprehensive coverage of an unaffiliated showjumping day for example and a competitor competes in a couple of classes and maybe gets through to a jumpoff, he may have 20 images to choose from and 6-8 that he really wants. He buys 1, maybe 2 at the show or simply elects to copy them all off the website later that evening. So I provide good quality images, onsite printing, a wide choice of price points and products and the images are loaded onto my site the same day typically, to capture the immediacy that you spoke about.

Please tell me what I am doing wrong other than perhaps making the mistake of putting them on tinternet at all?

"Sure ,it is wrong but it is a matter of perspective" Sorry my perspective remains that it is shoplifting and I am taking very deliberate steps to address this and will continue to do so.
 
One of the good things about buying photos is that you pretty much know what you are getting beforehand (imagine if you got to taste your burger before deciding to buy it!). If you don't think the images are any good or that they are overpriced (or you don't like the photographer for some random reason) don't buy them.

It's the whole ethos that "well I don't like that enough to spend money on it, but I'll have it for nothing" that doesn't sit well. Either it's good and pay for it or it isn't so don't have it. If your mate took something just as good or better from the crowd that's ace, use theirs then.
The argument of "well I wouldn't have bought it anyway" is used for all types of media - music, films, games etc especially on the internet and there's not really any way of getting beyond that attitude, and it's true that not every ripped image on FB translates as a lost sale. It's when people start taking the mick and have hundreds of ripped photos where it gets annoying I'd imagine.

The Amazon model of selling in bulk at cheap prices is quite a risky choice if your livelihood depends on it (I'm lucky in that mine doesn't). It also doesn't change the buyer's expectations of it - I was contacted once by someone who had paid £5 for a 8x6 and was very disappointed that I hadn't photoshopped out all of the crowd from the background (before anyone asks why I had the crowd in the first place it was either that or a seriously back-lit horse :) )!
At the end of the day there's not really much that can be done about people using images once they're on the internet (you ask for them to get taken down and they'll pop up somewhere else 5mins later) so I don't tend to look for my pics on facebook as I'd just get annoyed.

Ed
 
I haven't read all of this thread, cba to be honest, but do photgraphers mind if I post a link to their website? I have done this on another post, but I have bought the picture too.
 
You are quite entitled to post a link,though one post earlier suggested you wern,t. You may not be entitled to copy a book ,but you are certainly entitled to give directions to Foyles bookstore.
 
I have to admit I have been bewildered by some of the comments I have read here. Some seem to indicate that the photographers are somehow to blame for all this, other comments seem to indicate that because people want something fast they should just take it and then there are sweeping generalisations about quality.

Common sense tells you that in any market you are going to get good and bad. There will be people starting out, learning the trade and those who have been doing it for donkeys (or horses) years. As such you are going to encounter a wealth of styles and qualities of product.

On top of that and often more importantly, it doesn't matter how good a photographer you are, how well framed, exposed and tack sharp your images are, if the subject of that image looks like a bag of spuds being thrown over a garden fence the photo is not going to be too impressive. That's not to say you won't sell it, it just won't win any awards. How many times has a person come up and said, "Oh look at my face, the expression is awful!" or "The horses shape looks terrible, look at the legs, they aren't tucked up very well at all!" Not much I can do about that I'm afraid.

Often you have little control over the backgrounds, not every venue has a nice line of green trees you can use as a nice backdrop and even if there is, the position of the sun is going to effect the direction you can shoot at any particular time of day.

Anyway, in the end there is "Choice". The customer has the choice whether to buy the product, not to buy it or to steal it. No one holds their arms behind their backs and forces them to do any of those things.

I still believe this is very much a cultural issue. The "net" generation has grown up with the internet, file sharing, emailing of files, instant messenging etc... and to them it is normal. They believe rightly or wrongly that there is nothing wrong in sharing whatever they have with anyone else and probably most do not even realise the consequences of doing so.

Do I think offering an option for a low quality digital image will solve the copying issue, no I don't. You might make a few extra sales and there is no harm in at least offering that. However, the vast majority of people who copy these images still won't buy them, especially if they can get something for free, even if it has a great big copyright notice across it!
 
dominobrown said:
I haven't read all of this thread, cba to be honest, but do photgraphers mind if I post a link to their website? I have done this on another post, but I have bought the picture too.
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I don't see any issue in providing a link to a page that contains that image, but that's my view. The only time I would imagine there could be an issue (dependant entirely on the views of the owner of that image) is if you were to embed that image in another page directly using deep linking (incase you've never heard of it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_linking).

I woulld say the best bet is always to drop the owner of the image a quick email and make sure they are OK with that.
 
Dear photographer, please understand that you cannot compose real life the way you compose a picture through a viewfinder. Human nature is human nature. Suggesting that someone will steal an image if they cannot get it fast enough ,is not the same as suggesting they should. Please dont bleat that it is all wrong and someone should make it stop.You are the one that starts off with sole control of that immage. The loss of control is entirely through choices you have made.If you dont like the result dont do it.
 
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