Thin soles - how to treat?

AdorableAlice said:
My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it. Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song. No foot no horse.
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How alarming that such an acclaimed farrier seems to be so lacking in his education.
 
not sure if been said already, but get farrier to put gel pads on the feet. They fit between hoof and shoe and won't move between shoeings. I've got this problem with my mare and have successfully kept her sound for last 3 years by doing this. Protection is the best method.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Really interesting thread with loads of advice and experiences. I am going to throw a spanner in.

There will always be horses with thin soles accompanied, more often than not with collapsed and or sheared heels.

Take a look at Soviet Song's history. That horse would not have wanted for anything, but her feet remained crap all her racing life and when I was lucky enough to see her last summer her feet were still crap. She lives in luxury, is looked after by the most experienced horsemen possible and is worth millions, but her feet are what nature gave her and have to be lived with.

I had a big ID horse with very flat feet and I had to accept if he was to stay sound he could not be allowed onto rough or firm ground. He was shod with very wide flat iron to support him and if he trod on anything more than a pea sized stone he was hopping for the next 6 steps. Luckily he did a decent dressage test, always on a surface of course. Hacking was an hour of stone spotting, no off roading on rough tracks and no turnout on hard ground or frosty ground. His feet were all white, flakey and soft.

My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it. Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song. No foot no horse.
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what a sad post. So frustrating that the message just isn't getting through,.
Soviet Song lives in luxury. Don't you see therein lies the problem. LOL

As for your own horse well what can I say. Many successful barefoot riders on here who have not won any championships could tell you what the problem is. Horses aren't born like this, man creates these problems.
 
OP and Lenehorse, this was my horse six years ago, exactly the same but I live in Yorkshire. He would go lame if he lost a shoe in the field and I used boots to cover up to problem instead of tackling it and curing the problem.
He ended up with navicular, which is possibly where you're heading and in the end, even against my farrier and vet's advice, I had his shoes removed, as opposed to having a neurectomy or pts.
I had already bought four boots and pads ready for the day and they were put on as soon as his shoes came off. We began very carefully, only bringing him out of the stable for an hour booted up, he was quite comfortable in the boots and I had rubber matting in the stable. We built up the time gradually and then he was turned out in a small paddock where I took his boots off for a short time at first, and gradually built up the time.
His feet improved rapidly,and I was riding him again in the boots within six months, he'd been retired for the previous 12 months. Now his hoof horn is tons thicker and his soles tough enough so that he is fine even on a gravelly track leading to the field where he is completely comfortable. So now his feet are free of the iron shackles for 22 hours a day and booted for riding.
Formaldehyde is supposed to harden the horn but again it does not solve the root of the problem.
You asked what can be done to improve thin soles and hundreds and thousands of owners have found the answer. It is up to you now.
You have to be very brave to take the leap of faith to do what needs to be done to improve both your horses feet, they will not make anything like the progress (if at all) when the shoes are restricting them.
 
Nocturnal said:
I don't mean any offense, but I find it so sad and frustrating that people can still think like this despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary :(.
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Agree.

I struggle to understand how over 60 million year's of evolution can be demolished over the course of a couple of hundered years?

I know of a horse (fed on 'conditioning feeds') who is shod on fronts only.

The owner wanted to try barefoot (and by God, if ever a horse needs to have a break from shoes, it's this poor creature) but the vet said it's soles are too thin.
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How can a horse's soles be OK on the bare hinds, but too thin on the fronts???

Genetics? Or a combination of sugary diets and shoes preventing stimulation and therefore growth?

The trees are over there near the forest;)
 
Thanks again guys. Wee update for those that are interested:

Got his front feet xrayed today. Showed up that he does have thin soles (no great surprise there) but thankfully nothing more sinister is present and his foot balance is good. Both vet and farrier have said that there has been a massive increase in foot problems in the area this year due to the phenomenally wet conditions :(

I know many of you disagree but vet has advised that I use a topical hardener to protect the sole whilst it hardens, again both vet and farrier don't believe pads are the correct choice for him due to how wet the ground is, and his penchant for pulling off shoes :mad:

He is however now on pro hoof (which he ate today with apple juice in it!) and micronised linseed. Should i still be feeding mag ox or will this alter the balance too much?

Oh - and he will be stabled over night for the rest of the winter I reckon to let his feet dry out.

Boring road hacking for me for a while, but if it works then totally worth it. :D
 
Glad about the Pro Hoof. If you contact the seller (tell her Sarah H says hi) and ask her about the magnesium, she'll be able to guide you as to whether it's going to be helpful or not.

Also lay off the sugar as this will help the soles too.

Can't agree with the vet's advice on painting on a hardener - the sole is weak because it's thin. Horse needs to lay more tissue down, not just harden what he has.
 
People believe because it's what they've been told and what they've seen, many of us have been told and seen different so we believe and know different...
 
The farrier (whom I trailered my horse to every six weeks) allowed my horses toes to get too long and therefore his heels to collapse, competes in farriery competitions and at the time did write articles for magazines about foot conformation.
When my horse was diagnosed with navicular syndrome, he had extensive bruising to the heel area and badly collapsed heels. He had flat soles and very thin horn at the time. I had been repeatedly telling my farrier that my horse had become "footy" going over stoney ground and was intermittantly lame on his left fore, but he just replied "well that's thoroughbreds feet for you" and did nothing to reverse the process.
When the vet told me the devastating news, I was livid that my farrier had allowed this to happen, after all the questions and warnings I had given him. but because he was very well respected and knowledgeable, I thought he must know best. Now I know he facilitated the deterioration and did nothing to reverse it, I now feel like I should have sued him for damages.
My horse is a TB, he HAD appalling foot conformation but I have prooved to my vet and that farrier that the decline IS reversible, you just need to get YOUR head around it and release your horse from the vice of the steel shoes. HE WILL then proove you, and your champion farrier wrong - guaranteed! It makes me want to cry for horses like yours. It must be like us wearing steel shoes that are two sizes too small and having them on day and night, 24/7/365 - all because you and vets and farriers will not try to see the evidence in front of your eyes
I will create another album in my profile for you to view the transformation of my TB's feet, if you can lift your head out of the sand to take a look.
 
Sorry, but this is what puts people off of the barefoot approach :( There has been a lot of excellent and non judgemental advice given to me on this thread - including advice from barefooters, whose opinion I value, that this is NOT the right time to try barefoot. As I already stated, we have had terrible weather where I am lately and removing his shoes would render him on virtual box rest until summer - far crueller imo than allowing him to continue wearing shoes! I have been interested in barefoot having read some other posts on here, but you cannot simply assume that one size fits all and try to ram your ideals down someone else's throat. The fact that I choose to shoe my horse does not mean that I don't care! It also doesn't mean he's guaranteed to get navicular or similar - I have xrays from today to prove that apart from the state of his soles, his feet are fine.

I appreciate that the barefoot approach has worked wonders for your horse, and perhaps it is something that I will consider for the future. But it will be because I have made an educated and informed decision - not because it has been forced upon me.
 
Muff747 - that was a bit harsh hun :( I appreciate your passion but getting mad at people won't help anyone
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Saddlesore - FWIW I feel you are doing the right thing by leaving the shoes on. Fix the diet and then review what you want to do.

If you get to the point where you HAVE to remove the shoes one day, there are always things like glue on boots or Equiwraps in the trimmer's bag of tricks to make things easier on your horse.

The Barefoot Taliban will be here if you need us. Good luck.
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foxy1 said:
Whoa there muff747!! This owner is doing her best for the horse that she can at the moment :)

I know I keep posting this blog post but it rang so true to me, evoked such emotion, that I have to post it again

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/progress-and-healthy-hoof.html
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I think muff747 is just frustrated with the poor advice that vets and farriers sometimes come up with, we trust them to be the real experts and sometimes they simply are not up with owners who have been there and know the reality, the ground roots info, of what makes good hooves.
 
saddlesore said:
He is however now on pro hoof (which he ate today with apple juice in it!) and micronised linseed. Should i still be feeding mag ox or will this alter the balance too much?

Oh - and he will be stabled over night for the rest of the winter I reckon to let his feet dry out.

Boring road hacking for me for a while, but if it works then totally worth it. :D
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I'd would add mag ox and salt. A period out of the mud each day will help.

ps. My strange post last night was in response to AdorableAlice I should have made that clear.
 
Thanks guys :)

amandap, my post was in response to muff 747. I appreciate that everyone has different views, and that people can be very passionate about things, but there are ways of saying things that don't offend people in the process :rolleyes:
 
To be honest OP, I am sure no one wants to offend you, I have my boy barefoot, but he is stabled all the time, when he was standing in mud last year he was footy, so there is some connection between wet acid clay that we get in the West of Scotland. I have altered my management to overcome the problem, not by choice, I would want him out 4 hours per day.
People get passionate because they feel they spent years listening to the professionals, only to find out that there is another way, a way which works. It is difficult to ignore farriers and vets, and at this stage it is not a good idea for you, but he will need a change in management or he will not improve.
Personally I would hold back on the MgO in case it taints the feed, I think it is in pro hoof.
You can do leg yields and so on while out walking on the roads, walking is the best all round exercise.
 
amandap said:
People believe because it's what they've been told and what they've seen, many of us have been told and seen different so we believe and know different...
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that is so true Amanda. Problem is how to get some of those people to see what we have been seeing in unshod horses. :) not wanting them all to take their shoes off but I am sure there could be improvements in shod horses if they followed some of our guidelines.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Really interesting thread with loads of advice and experiences. I am going to throw a spanner in.

There will always be horses with thin soles accompanied, more often than not with collapsed and or sheared heels.

Take a look at Soviet Song's history. That horse would not have wanted for anything, but her feet remained crap all her racing life and when I was lucky enough to see her last summer her feet were still crap. She lives in luxury, is looked after by the most experienced horsemen possible and is worth millions, but her feet are what nature gave her and have to be lived with.

I had a big ID horse with very flat feet and I had to accept if he was to stay sound he could not be allowed onto rough or firm ground. He was shod with very wide flat iron to support him and if he trod on anything more than a pea sized stone he was hopping for the next 6 steps. Luckily he did a decent dressage test, always on a surface of course. Hacking was an hour of stone spotting, no off roading on rough tracks and no turnout on hard ground or frosty ground. His feet were all white, flakey and soft.

My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it. Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song. No foot no horse.
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My apologies to those who were offended by my last post, it wasn't aimed at the OP so I should have quoted AA's post when answering her.
I didn't mean it to sound like I was mad either, the capitals were just to emphasise those words, and as someone said, my frustration is re AA's prizewinning farrier who is so typical of some of the professionals I have seen working, they just do not want to know and horses are suffering badly because of professionals who are not willing to at least try new treatments.
The main thing I have learnt from my horses health problems is that vets and farriers do not know everything about every horse and also cannot know everything about their profession, especially with the rapid rate of new research into horses health, feet and otherwise. They simply have not got the time to keep up with every different ailment that presents as non standard or those problems that don't quite "fit into the box", like my horse.
As I said though, it is very difficult to go against your farrier and vet, but I did because I wanted to do everything possible to give my horse a chance of a comfortable retirement, if that was all he could manage. As it happens, I got more than I wished for and was able to bring him back into work well within six months of shoes off.
OP, I'm sure things look ok on the x-rays now, but he is showing signs of his feet being unhappy in shoes and if you wait, you may end up with serious problems years down the road. It is far harder and takes longer to come back to full soundness than if you heed the signs sooner rather than later. Yes the minerals will help, but the main problem is the contraints on the hoof being able to flex correctly, which draws blood into the hoof and the frog pressure then pumps it back up the leg. Please don't be put off the thought of BF due to my post, it wasn't aimed at you but at AA, my apologies.
Your boy wouldn't need to be on box rest if you ask advice about how to manage tender footed horses following shoe removal. It is owners who are not prepared and cannot cope with bare feet, and that's what I meant about getting your head around it. I researched and asked around for months before I took the leap of faith, and I am so glad I did and my horse is too - he wouldn't be here now if I hadn't.
 
I understand where Muff is coming from - sometimes I think the tone of my posts can come across as dogmatic or abrasive when im just either over excited or really frustrated with vets and farriers!

My sister is a vet - she has said point blank that they do 6 weeks on hooves and nothing on barefoot, whether as a treatment or just in general.

She was busy telling me the other day that carrots are fine to feed theyre not that high in sugar......... DOES THIS GIVE YOU A CLUE ABOUT VETS AND HOOVES?!?!

So my point is, unless you have a specialist equine vet, and then one with an interest in barefoot and hooves in particular you arent getting that much of an expert opinion tbh.
 
TigerTail said:
I understand where Muff is coming from - sometimes I think the tone of my posts can come across as dogmatic or abrasive when im just either over excited or really frustrated with vets and farriers!

My sister is a vet - she has said point blank that they do 6 weeks on hooves and nothing on barefoot, whether as a treatment or just in general.

She was busy telling me the other day that carrots are fine to feed theyre not that high in sugar......... DOES THIS GIVE YOU A CLUE ABOUT VETS AND HOOVES?!?!

So my point is, unless you have a specialist equine vet, and then one with an interest in barefoot and hooves in particular you arent getting that much of an expert opinion tbh.
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That doesn't surprise me at all, my vet is pro barefoot but he was unaware that wormers can affect foot sensitivity and I had to explain the thinking behind why (which is also a conversation I had with my neighbour who is also a vet and hadn't considered that an upset in the hind gut could upset the balance with the hooves). They both also don't really understand that barefoot and roadwork isn't a problem. If these basic ideas are not common knowledge with vets then other ideas will not surprsingly not got through to them yet.

Having also been told be a farrier that horse simply need shoes as they have been shod since ancient times therefore it must be true and that a flat foot is simple a flat foot I know don't expect to be enlightened much by them (I have seen my Tb's feet change shape so much that I know they are not set in stone).
 
I tried offering articles to my vet to read that seemed very pertinent to my horses problems and although he couldn't explain why he wasn't improving, he also never commented about the articles I offered and he never came up with an answer. Some vets are too arrogant to admit they don't know and work with the owner to find an answer that fits.
 
muff747 said:
I tried offering articles to my vet to read that seemed very pertinent to my horses problems and although he couldn't explain why he wasn't improving, he also never commented about the articles I offered and he never came up with an answer. Some vets are too arrogant to admit they don't know and work with the owner to find an answer that fits.
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If they don't actually have any real barefoot training they really aren't in a good position to help and must also feel frustrated, not surprising that so many support the shod altenatives if this is what they are taught.
 
So you would think, if they get no training in BF, they would be interested in results, if only as an alternative to offer clients, or at least think about it:confused:.
 
muff747 said:
So you would think, if they get no training in BF, they would be interested in results, if only as an alternative to offer clients, or at least think about it:confused:.
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Mine is interested in learning and we discussed at length the implications of worming and he thought it useful and valid comments. I think admitting there is a missing part of their knowledge must be quite hard to deal with as they are there to provide the answers.
 
Luckily my vets practice is an all equine practice, so feel pretty comfortable with what he saw on the xrays. He also didn't seem overly concerned about the thin soles given the state of the weather we've had round here - as stated by MrsD - its been a particulary wet one!

My mangement has changed to the extent that I hope the soles will improve, and at that stage I may consider other options. I've been wanting to get his backs off for a while but farrier reckoned it would be better to wait till the ground dries up a bit.

Trotted my boy up today and he's sound :D so going to leave him in again tomorrow (that'll be a week of box rest), put him out for a couple of hours on sat and sun and all going well, increase that to about 6 hours of daily t/o. Feet will be disinfected with prodata hoof dressing once a week, hardener on two or three times, and he is now on the pro hoof and the micronised linseed. I will hack him out at walk only on the tarmac for the next few weeks and if he's staying sound, then start introducing trot etc.

I really cannot thank you enough for your help - there is a wealth of knowledge on here that will hopefully make my boy much happier and healthier :)
 
muff747 said:
So you would think, if they get no training in BF, they would be interested in results, if only as an alternative to offer clients, or at least think about it:confused:.
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hmm well speaking for my sis alone, no, cos shes big animals (farm) not horses and hates being told anything by her little sister ;)

OP I really dont get this thing about not taking shoes off because its wet, the mud squishes up into the frog and creates stimulation. When the ground dries out it will then be hard so the farrier will then be saying its going to bruise his feet and be too harsh :confused:

I do applaud you though for taking the steps you have. Do check the labels on the hoof hardener to make sure it doesnt have formaldehyde or anything else necrotising in it. Im amazed at the vet promoting a hardener, id love to know on what grounds!
 
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