Thin soles - how to treat?

Thanks TT, no no formaldahyde. Its the hard and healthy one by equimins. Vet advised it to toughen the sole to protect it until it thickens. Seems reasonable enough to me :confused:
 
saddlesore said:
Thanks TT, no no formaldahyde. Its the hard and healthy one by equimins. Vet advised it to toughen the sole to protect it until it thickens. Seems reasonable enough to me :confused:
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The trouble is its a bit like putting nail varnish on your finger nails, have you got friends who always have painted or fake nails on? If you see their nails without the polish on theyre usually in a right state. Painting stuff onto the horses hoof does the same thing, and isnt toughening inthe sole. Only work which causes more blood flow to the area, therefore encouraging quicker growth, can do that.

You can also cause fungal infections by sloshing these products on as they stop the hoof from being able to breathe (remember how the girl in gold finger dies because she is painted all over and her skin couldnt function?)

You cant significantly improve or alter the hoof structure by painting stuff on or nailing shoes on - it can only be done by allowing the hoof to just be and function as a hoof, rather than a man made/altered product. :)
 
TigerTail said:
You cant significantly improve or alter the hoof structure by painting stuff on or nailing shoes on - it can only be done by allowing the hoof to just be and function as a hoof, rather than a man made/altered product. :)
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I think this is the point, I can't see how the soles will thicken without stimulus, but I can see how a hardener could make a sole more brittle and less able to flex as it needs to.
 
Muff747, please don't cry for my horses, they would be embarrassed. My dreadful, in your view, farrier shod them for 18 and 22 seasons of hunting, and then kept them, shock horror, barefoot in happy retirement until they left me to hunt in the sky aged 29 and 30 years of age.

The big boy I mentioned had flat feet, was fed and shod according to his needs and received dedicated care from a very well known othopedic vet. With the appropriate care he was a very succesful dressage horse and heavyweight show hunter. He retired and remained shod with flat iron to help his flat feet support the 18.2hh that stood above those feet.

I agree that much can be done to help horses with poor foot conformation and did not dispute that comment.

My, in your opinion, ignorant farrier, remains the only person I would allow near my present horses feet. Our combined ignorance has taken us to HOY's
twice, many championships and supremes and I was delighted when my horse took the best shod hunter at last Royal Show.

I hope anyone who is trying to help horses with poor feet every success, but I stand by my comments of no foot no horse and do not breed from horses with poor feet.

My final horse has just been bred and is by one of the very best RID stallions in the country out of a mare that I have never shod. The stallion's feet are so good he competes barefoot. My hope is the youngster will have rock hard trouble free feet for my ignorant farrier to shoe.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Really interesting thread with loads of advice and experiences. I am going to throw a spanner in.

There will always be horses with thin soles accompanied, more often than not with collapsed and or sheared heels.


I had a big ID horse with very flat feet and I had to accept if he was to stay sound he could not be allowed onto rough or firm ground. He was shod with very wide flat iron to support him and if he trod on anything more than a pea sized stone he was hopping for the next 6 steps. Luckily he did a decent dressage test, always on a surface of course. Hacking was an hour of stone spotting, no off roading on rough tracks and no turnout on hard ground or frosty ground. His feet were all white, flakey and soft.

My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it. Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song. No foot no horse.
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The fact that your horse couldn't step on anything more than a pea sized stone, no off road hacking on rough paths even when shod and had feet which were flakey and soft seems to say a lot about how approapriate his management was and how well advised you were by your farrier who also believed that there was nothing to be done for a flat footed horse as it was it's "nature" and "so be it".
 
muff747 said:
I tried offering articles to my vet to read that seemed very pertinent to my horses problems and although he couldn't explain why he wasn't improving, he also never commented about the articles I offered and he never came up with an answer. Some vets are too arrogant to admit they don't know and work with the owner to find an answer that fits.
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Hear Hear, I lent Feet First to both my last YOs they never opened it, both have horses with problems. but apparently, it is me who is "out of line", as usual.
Vet tells me it is the farriers job to look after feet [what a leap of faith]
It is not arrogance, it is youth, when I was newly qualified, I knew everything by the book., now I know a fair bit, but am open to new ideas.
One horse owner suggested I should keep my horse in a muddy field because he was feeling footy, I explained he had to toughen up, so was out on a stone and mud track where he could toughen up.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
The big boy I mentioned had flat feet, was fed and shod according to his needs and received dedicated care from a very well known othopedic vet. With the appropriate care he was a very succesful dressage horse and heavyweight show hunter. He retired and remained shod with flat iron to help his flat feet support the 18.2hh that stood above those feet.

My, in your opinion, ignorant farrier, remains the only person I would allow near my present horses feet.
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If you always do what you always did then you will always get what you always got.

AdorableAlice said:
Our combined ignorance has taken us to HOY's
twice, many championships and supremes and I was delighted when my horse took the best shod hunter at last Royal Show.
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In my experience, horses fed to carry the "condition" required for success at that level in the show ring (heavyweight classes being the worst) have a diet which is very likely to result in poor quality laminae/horn connection and correspondingly flat feet. The flatness of the feet is not much related to the shape of the pedal bone, it is related to the height of suspension of that bone inside the hoof capsule. I have never failed to see a correction of flat feet with a correction of the diet, though I will agree that with some horses those dietary corrections are much more difficult than others.
 
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cptrayes said:
If you always do what you always did then you will always get what you always got.
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This is so very true. :)

All horses are different in so many ways. What they are sensitive to in diet and emotionally, what the internal hoof structures are like now, how developed (or not) the internal structures are, how healthy the frog is... there are the basic never changing rules (low sugar, high fibre diet, quality hoof loading to be encouraged and enabled for eg.) but the rest is so very individual. Two horses on exactly the same diet, management and exercize regime may well not respond the same way.
 
My final horse has just been bred and is by one of the very best RID stallions in the country out of a mare that I have never shod. The stallion's feet are so good he competes barefoot. My hope is the youngster will have rock hard trouble free feet for my ignorant farrier to shoe.[/QUOTE]
Congratulations on all your successes.
I am pleased your horses lived out their retirement shoeless. Did you notice any difference in their feet once they had been turned away? Did your ID get that chance, his feet would have improved a great deal if he had.

I was also pleased to see you have picked the offspring of barefoot competing parents and you acknowledge it should have rock hard feet.
So why would you think it would need to be shod? If the stallion competes, why shouldn't yours be able to?
Please at least take a look at the Rockley Farm web site. http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Blog,_articles,_links.html
They compete in eventing and go hunting over Exmoor on their barefoot horses.
I agree some horses don't appear to suffer hoof damage with steel shoes but why would you want to go to the expense of finding out if your youngster is one of those lucky horses? There is a ton of articles now showing evidence of damage to the legs and body from the concussion the shoes cause. I assume if you hunt, you will do lots fittening and hardening legs trotting on roads?
Have you considered whether to give him the chance and see how he goes on without before you decide if he needs shoes, or do you feel so in awe of your farrier that if he says it's time to shoe, you will just let him?
 
I have kept off this thread for some time but have been monitoring it and it seems that on most threads to do with the foot we end up with a discussion about the pros and cons of barefoot.
I wanted to say that I am very lucky to be able to count quite a few vets as my barefoot clients, but if a referral case comes to a situation where shoeing is thought to be the best option then we take it.
Now before every BF starts tapping away on their organic, fair trade key boards, and punching their solar powered screens….let me tell you why I say that.
It may well be the case that I would like to treat every horse referred to me using barefoot, BUT… I and the vet have (I believe) to take into account whether barefoot is the best way forward for the owner at this or any time.
Yes I could stand there either defending barefoot, or attacking shoeing but I don’t think it honestly helps.
I would rather put all the options to the owner, if they chose to shoe the horse I think it is my responsibility to make sure it is done in a way that is going to work to the best of its ability.
(Out of all the referral cases I only either shod or helped shoe 7 horses last year)
That said I read in one of the comments ‘My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships’
One of the reasons that I got disillusioned with farriery is due to the importance that is put on competitions.
I do quite allot of work for one of the ‘best farriers in the country’ he is a judge at many shows, and has won most of them, he is in full agreement with me that when it comes to knowledge of biomechanics and referral cases that require all possible variants of treatment, being a competition winner is not up there with studying ALL available options that can be offered to the vet and owner.
Yes I would love every horse to be barefoot, and I think every horse would to, but until that day I will fight my corner but also fully respect the serious, caring owner and vet that have genuine reasons for wanting something that they feel as strongly about as I do.
Progress is a product of quality debate
 
Moorman - can I just ask, is it possible for a horse's sole to thicken without being barefoot? I ask as this is the first year that I have had this problem and both vet and farrier reckon it's environmental, therefore his sole must have been ok before? Also, if the sole didn't grow and regenerate without weight bearing, then why would farriers pare some of it away?

My horse is t/o (lived out, but will now be stabled at night to allow feet to dry) and exercised on a variety of surfaces, so therefore his sole must be stimulated? :confused:
 
moorman said:
I have kept off this thread for some time but have been monitoring it and it seems that on most threads to do with the foot we end up with a discussion about the pros and cons of barefoot.
I wanted to say that I am very lucky to be able to count quite a few vets as my barefoot clients, but if a referral case comes to a situation where shoeing is thought to be the best option then we take it.
Now before every BF starts tapping away on their organic, fair trade key boards, and punching their solar powered screens….let me tell you why I say that.
It may well be the case that I would like to treat every horse referred to me using barefoot, BUT… I and the vet have (I believe) to take into account whether barefoot is the best way forward for the owner at this or any time.
Yes I could stand there either defending barefoot, or attacking shoeing but I don’t think it honestly helps.
I would rather put all the options to the owner, if they chose to shoe the horse I think it is my responsibility to make sure it is done in a way that is going to work to the best of its ability.
(Out of all the referral cases I only either shod or helped shoe 7 horses last year)
That said I read in one of the comments ‘My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships’
One of the reasons that I got disillusioned with farriery is due to the importance that is put on competitions.
I do quite allot of work for one of the ‘best farriers in the country’ he is a judge at many shows, and has won most of them, he is in full agreement with me that when it comes to knowledge of biomechanics and referral cases that require all possible variants of treatment, being a competition winner is not up there with studying ALL available options that can be offered to the vet and owner.
Yes I would love every horse to be barefoot, and I think every horse would to, but until that day I will fight my corner but also fully respect the serious, caring owner and vet that have genuine reasons for wanting something that they feel as strongly about as I do.
Progress is a product of quality debate
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Moorman - you are a genuine asset to this forum!

Your comment about Farriery competitions - I believe a lot of it is about aesthetics rather than function, is that correct? And speed? Neither of which, in my opinion, is top of my list for desirable traits in a farrier. (willing to be corrected if there is more to the competitions than that)

Trina x
 
Back off bitches. I saw him first
naughty.gif
 
That's a great post by Moorman.
I had my first visit from a barefoot trimmer at the weekend ( some of you will remember me posting when I started)
I was not sure whet to expect but was impressed by his approach which was balanced bad not at evangelical in a scary way i hope you understand what I mean.
He trimmed the feet lightly said he would like to see him in six weeks and then in six weeks again and then four times a year as in his opinion my horse will self trim as there in coarse silica sand in my school . I had been avoiding the stoney road that get us to our best hacking but he said just to go for it and the next day we did ( I lead from another horse ) and had a lovely ride round the fields and he was fine on the stones.
We talked diet but the one thing he said that really hit home was with barefoot the owner is responsible for every thing and you have monitor all the time when shod you pay the bill every five weeks and forget about it until the next time you book the farrier that really hit home with me as now I am always looking at his feet looking for changes reading this and that coming on here and reading threads but before apart from being obsessed with having thrush free feet ( early stirrings of a latent barefooter) I pretty well forgot about it.
 
OK Saddlesore this is how I see it:
No Horse that I have ever known has been born with:
a, Flat feet, b, thin soles, c, shoes on!!
So what goes wrong: well from the owner’s side it can be neglect, by the sounds of it we can rule that out!
From the farriers side it can be a combination of many things, one of which is that most farrier will have ‘their way’ of shoeing, it might be the most beautiful thing to look at, and it may suit a tremendous amount of horses that have good feet…..but, and here is the rub, it might not suit all horses.
When working with one such farrier just before Xmas I observed him going for his knife as soon as he had taken the shoe off, “what are you going to do” I asked “take off the old sole” he said, “why” “because he doesn’t need it” now bearing in mind this was a flat/thin footed TB, I asked him if I could remove the old calluses he had grown on his fingers, or do you need them?
Slowly the head looked up and he smiled, then came a wonderful moment, he asked if that was what it was for.
From that moment on I/he had no problem; the horse is now just starting to grow thicker healthier soles, yes you can recreate good sole tissue, even with shoes, they have to be the right ones and they must be put on for the purpose of increasing the expansion and contraction of the foot, I will say however that I have never been able to produce ‘barefoot soles’ with shoes on, but you can make a start with them on.
Blood, Blood, Blood, healthy and in good supply will give you great feet, it is all very well stimulating the feet but it will work best knowing they are able to do the most with that stimulation,
Think of it as Pilates of the foot, that is the articulation, expansion and contraction is taken to the comfortable limit that is within the horse ability.
Hope this is not to general, but I would never get to specific without knowing all the facts and having been asked by a professional who is requesting help, mainly for the reason that if the farrier or vet is asking then you know you are getting somewhere.
 
trina1982
I was fortunate enough to have a book published ‘The Horses Foot and Related Problems’
In it I had a section that set about putting the facts concerning competition shoeing and whether it was relevant in this day and age.
The feedback from owners was very encouraging; the response from the Farriery profession was not so flattering, I was asked politely if I would refrain from training any further Apprentices as it seemed my methods were not compliant with the status quo.
Competition shoeing is one of the evils of the farriery profession.
Go to any country show that has a showing contest and see one front foot shod by one farrier (could be ‘the best’) and the other front foot shod by another (‘could be the worst’) hay presto in front of a full audience they have just created (by their own admittance) an unbalanced horse,
It is against all the animal welfare act stands for and should be abolished, the idea of a live horse used to show the imperfections or otherwise of a craft is not only bad for the animal, but makes a mockery of what some consider a profession that should be moving on and embracing ALL types of foot management.
Don’t get me started, or is it too late!!
 
moorman said:
trina1982
I was fortunate enough to have a book published ‘The Horses Foot and Related Problems’
In it I had a section that set about putting the facts concerning competition shoeing and whether it was relevant in this day and age.
The feedback from owners was very encouraging; the response from the Farriery profession was not so flattering, I was asked politely if I would refrain from training any further Apprentices as it seemed my methods were not compliant with the status quo.
Competition shoeing is one of the evils of the farriery profession.
Go to any country show that has a showing contest and see one front foot shod by one farrier (could be ‘the best’) and the other front foot shod by another (‘could be the worst’) hay presto in front of a full audience they have just created (by their own admittance) an unbalanced horse,
It is against all the animal welfare act stands for and should be abolished, the idea of a live horse used to show the imperfections or otherwise of a craft is not only bad for the animal, but makes a mockery of what some consider a profession that should be moving on and embracing ALL types of foot management.
Don’t get me started, or is it too late!!
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So, not a good thing then? lol

Thanks for answering my question, will try and check out your book.
Trina x
 
Moorman, thanks for your answer. Makes a lot of sense! Oddly enough I asked my farrier today if it was possible for him to shoe my horse without removing sole and he replied that he only ever takes 'the smallest possible amount off' (which is true, he doesn't pare them much) but now I can insist that they just get left on - for a couple of shoeing cycles anyway to allow some thickened tissue to develop. :)
 
If only there were many more Moormans around - there would be many, I mean probably thousands of horses in less pain, and not suffering from "navicular" and being pts because of farriers (not all) leaving long toes and allowing underrun heels to develop and not trying to correct the problem.
In my area I see so many horses and ponies shod like this, so sad.
You are a rare breed Moorman, you are a professional who is ready to embrace new ideas and are not afraid to go against tradition.
You know, I think this "head in the sand" syndrome is a bit like the Emperers Clothes, because the people who really should know what a correctly shaped hoof should look like i.e. vets and farriers (not all) - actually tell owners of horses with badly shaped hooves, that everything's fine and dandy - and so owners believe them. I know, I used to be one of those owners:o
 
muff747 said:
If only there were many more Moormans around - there would be many, I mean probably thousands of horses in less pain, and not suffering from "navicular" and being pts because of farriers (not all) leaving long toes and allowing underrun heels to develop and not trying to correct the problem.
In my area I see so many horses and ponies shod like this, so sad.
You are a rare breed Moorman, you are a professional who is ready to embrace new ideas and are not afraid to go against tradition.
You know, I think this "head in the sand" syndrome is a bit like the Emperers Clothes, because the people who really should know what a correctly shaped hoof should look like i.e. vets and farriers (not all) - actually tell owners of horses with badly shaped hooves, that everything's fine and dandy - and so owners believe them. I know, I used to be one of those owners:o
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I have been reading about a theory by Dr Bowker in the new Ramey textbook that researchers in vet universities have studied donated horses for decades.

The types of horses donated to a university or picked up at the 'kill market' for research are rarely young and healthy - they have often ended up there for lameness reasons.

So to conclude - most studies and research have been carried out on pathological hooves rather than anyone ever seeing an really and truely healthy hoof. The vets and farriers have got used to pathological hooves being 'the norm'.

That's one of the reasons why studying the hooves of wild horse's was so ground breaking.

There is a longer study into Brumby hooves that has recently been published - I look forward to finding the results.

No doubt it will be ignored though:(
 
trina1982 said:
Moorman - you are a genuine asset to this forum!

Your comment about Farriery competitions - I believe a lot of it is about aesthetics rather than function, is that correct? And speed? Neither of which, in my opinion, is top of my list for desirable traits in a farrier. (willing to be corrected if there is more to the competitions than that)

Trina x
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I am always happy to try a farrier who has been around a bit, including international competitions, because it indicates an interest in the craft, and one hopes an open mind.
Having said that, the best farrier round here no longer competes [he tells me he learnt so much from other farriers], but works away with ordinary people, and works hard, he also is good with difficult horses, and is fair with £ charges, gives advice if asked, I would always refer to him if in doubt, and I also know he would consult with any good vet of my choosing. Re his speed, he actually goes pretty slowly as every nail has to be perfect, and will be removed and replaced if it goes in badly, unlike so many bad farriers who "tack em on" and drive off!
Another, [who is at examiner level] is not such a good farrier, for a while he was shoeing every horse with pretty much the same shoes and nails, apparently preparing them all for eight weeks of roadwork! Now he has come round to using specialist plates and so on, he has been all over the world, and is much respected in competition as a judge. I would not allow him to shoe my boy.
Another who has shod my ponies is non competitive to the point of extremes, he does a good job, but rarely comments on the feet, he now crosses himself and mutters ..... "on the dark side, on the dark side, every time we meet!" lol, at least he has a sense of humour, and only charges a tenner to rasp my boy,s front feet back to a "perfect shape"
 
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Oberon said:
So to conclude - most studies and research have been carried out on pathological hooves rather than anyone ever seeing an really and truely healthy hoof. The vets and farriers have got used to pathological hooves being 'the norm'.
but I wouldn't include Dr Bowker as one of the vets that can't recognise a good foot though but I agree, vets and farriers seem to have been "brainwashed by pictures" and can't seem to think outside the box
That's one of the reasons why studying the hooves of wild horse's was so ground breaking .
There is a longer study into Brumby hooves that has recently been published - I look forward to finding the results.

No doubt it will be ignored though: (
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Yes, by the professionals (not all), but not by me, I would be very interested to see it when it's published.
 
It was Dr Bowker writing the chapter in the Ramey book;) Its Bowker's theory.
The findings on tge Brumby study is also in the same book
 
I've been using Fine Frog frog and sole oil for the same thing and my horse's hooves are great. She usually gets infections as she gets holes in her sole but they are quite thick this year and her frogs are great (usually ragged and soft).
 
moorman said:
I was fortunate enough to have a book published ‘The Horses Foot and Related Problems’
In it I had a section that set about putting the facts concerning competition shoeing and whether it was relevant in this day and age.
The feedback from owners was very encouraging; the response from the Farriery profession was not so flattering, I was asked politely if I would refrain from training any further Apprentices as it seemed my methods were not compliant with the status quo.
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Moorman your governing body does farriers no favours, does it. I am reminded of a study that was set up by Rockley Farm and a Veterinary Hospital farrier two years ago, which was going to compare growth of shod foot and unshod foot. The study was all agreed under rigorous principles which meant that the horses would be shod either by one remedial farrier or by their own farriers under the direct supervision of that farrier. It was all set to go, we were all very excited, and then two of the horses' farrier's refused to go ahead.

WHAT WERE THEY AFRAID OF?
 
Now I'm on a roll :)

Have you also seen this quote, which is in Feet First and also on the Rockley blog?

"Think for a moment what surgery was like before the invention of anaesthesia in 1842... Imagine taking pride above all in the speed with which you wield the knife - speed was essential, for the shock of an operation could itself be a major factor in bringing about the patient's death.


Now think about this: in 1795 a doctor discovered that inhaling nitrous oxide killed pain..yet no surgeon experimented with this. The use of anaesthetics was pioneered not by surgeons but by humble dentists.


One of the first practitioners of painless dentistry, Horace Wells, was driven to suicide by the hostility of the medical profession.


When anaesthesia was first employed in London in 1846 it was called a "Yankee dodge". In other words, practising anaesthesia felt like cheating. Most of the characteristics that the surgeon had developed - the indifference, the strength, the pride, the sheer speed - were suddenly irrelevant.


Why did it take 50 years to invent anaesthesia? Any answer has to recognise the emotional investment that surgeons had made in becoming a certain sort of person with a certain sort of skills, and the difficulty of abandoning that self-image.


If we turn to other discoveries we find that they too have the puzzling feature of unnecessary delay...if we start looking at progress we find we actually need to tell a story of delay as well as a story of discovery, and in order to make sense of these delays we need to turn away from the inflexible logic of discovery and look at other factors: the role of emotions, the limits of imagination, the conservatism of institutions.


If you want to think about what progress really means, then you need to imagine what it was like to have become so accustomed to the screams of patients that they seemed perfectly natural and normal...you must first understand what stands in the way of progress"
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