Think I might hate watching professional showjumping...

milliepops said:
Edward Gal is a total mystery to me. he can sit on a horse in a stunningly effortless way so (to me) is doubtless without a tremendous amount of skill and ability... he's able to tease out performances from the most challenging horses.... I just can't therefore understand the reasoning for that way of training :( Unfathomable.

Once upon a time I would shake my head to myself and say maybe that's why I'm a puny amateur and he's at the top of the sport... but these days the more sympathetic way of training is clearly traction and results, so... :rolleyes:
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I totally agree his talent is endless his seat the thing dreams are made of .
And he did have an amazing relationship with Totilas you can't get away from that and it's not fair to blame him for the fact the horse mostly went badly for his next rider who is not in the same class as EG.
The whole rolkur thing confuses the hell out of me and where's the clear explaination of its place in their training scheme .
I had a trainer who worked extensively in sweden take a few of us through it once even at the end of it it was as clear as mud but I came to the conclusion it makes training these very very hot athletic horses quicker .
I think in dressage changes within judging will quickly change thing .
In young horse classes they could give a penalty to horses who are shown with their mouths strapped Shut the judges could hammer in the marks horses doing that broken a third vertebrae thing .
Dressage is a big buisiness shaking up the marking in one of market places for the top end of the sport would quickly adjust the beginning of how young horses at the top end are started off .
Personally I think the 'need 'to show young horses with these huge expressive trots has a lot to answer for .
 
I wonder what sort of outcry would occur if dogs were treated in the same way as horses. Beaten in agility for missing jumps, heads strapped to chests and paraphernalia in their mouth in showing....I know the world of dogs has its horrors, but the public face likes to keep its nose clean. Why is it different with horses? Can you imagine young dog handlers being routinely given whips and encouraged to use them? Bizzare.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
not getting your point? I'm not apologising for rollkur.

I stopped watching competitive dressage years ago-I would far rather watch good working equitation. I prefer showjumping but its always been the case that there are some lovely riders and some not so lovely.
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Thats odd, sorry MoC... I actually thought I'd quoted the below from esters post in relation to excuses...

ester said:
I wonder if it has in part come out of horses now being generally hot, certainly including Gals' horses and this a seemingly effective way to keep them more rideable.
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I hear the above all the time about how these "especially bred horses" need to be ridden in a "certain way". If riders are resorting to two inch wide crank nosebands and yanking them bent double to control these "big movers" then are they suitable horses for these disciplines?
 
That wasn't making excuses either just perusing the why's around how we have ended up here! Even if it isn't true and is just the perception of those doing it surely unless someone can get to the bottoms of the how's and whys we won't see any change. Especially as no one can monitor what happens outside of competition, so we have to get to the point that people don't think it necessary or helpful.
 
tallyho! said:
No it's not at least... that shouldn't be allowed either!!

Same reason I can't watch anything "top class" these days - too much horse abuse going and EVERY SINGLE PERSON ignoring it, turning a blind eye to it and REWARDING IT.

Horse abuse is horse abuse and the people not saying it, may as well be the perpetrators.

What I have seen in social media is even more horrifying. THere was a spate of naming and shaming but even that has been excused by the "moment in time" get out clause.

Look at Edward Gal... his horse looked like it had a broken neck and he was literally holding it up with a pulley system.
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Oh I so agree with that.Am beginning to loathe all horse competition.Pammy Hutton has a facebook page in conjunction with Heather Moffat called something like FEI time to act not ignore.She wrote a cracking article in last weeks HH talking about Mr.Mrs. Blogs going to a show.They might not have much technical knowledge but they know animal cruelty when they see it and don't like it.It's driving people away.
 
stormox said:
With the top class xc and showjumping ( and I didn't see any of the european SJ but I did see the eventing) do you think part of the problem is the course designers setting horrible courses? Too many difficult lines with related distances the horses can't manage without shortening and lengthening in an almost impossible way? Too many skinnys and fences horses can't read in the xc, riders being told 'get round for the sake of the team' ..... do you think nicer courses that are sympathetic to the horse would make for more 'teamwork' between horse and rider and less rider dominance that seems to be at the forefront today?
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Yes and the same in dressage.Watched the Danish para, must have been grade 3 or 4 as she did some canter work.The test she did was simpler than an able bodied test but a total joy to watch.It flowed beatifully, the horse looked soft and relaxed and as if it was enjoying it's job..
 
Goldenstar said:
Personally I think the 'need 'to show young horses with these huge expressive trots has a lot to answer for .
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I always thought that in dressage whatever trot you were in, the movement of the hind legs had to mirror the movement of the fore. ie the gap between forelegs at their most extended should be the same as between hindlegs. So the trot was a pure 2 time diagonal.
However nowadays the foreleg extension is MUCH greater than the hindleg, resulting in a trot that is not even, and sometimes only one hind foot is on the ground as the diagonally opposite foreleg is slightly later to touch the ground!! Can this type of trot ever be correct??
 
rachk89 said:
I watched a video of pony jumping the other day and was quite angry at how one girl rode. Pony refused a jump so she smacked it about 5 times for that with the whip. Brought it round again, it refused again, elimination, another 4 smacks with the whip. Dunno if anything was done but if I had been her parent she'd have been dragged off the pony and it sold to a home where it wouldn't be hit like that.

Not the top league but still not good.
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Have some sympathy but having been involved at one time in pony jumping, I owned a very good jumping pony I have to say the children learn from their parents and a good many will have a good hiding for mistakes riding in the ring.I once saw a man hit his 13 year old daughter so hard across the face she nearly fell over.It was done in full public view and nothing was said.
 
There is some nice footage of Sebastien Poirier on his FB page, jumping a double clear at Hickstead last year, with a young horse. There is a lovely comment on how delightful it is to see a young horse ridden with just a snaffle and no flash. When our young stallion was on his yard, he was given the same sympathetic treatment with very good results. Once back in France I became more and more irritated with constant changes of bit. His worst jumping ever was when the Pro. decided to put him in a Pelham, tight flash and tight curb.

It does make it very difficult for breeders like me to find the right sort of rider for our horses.
 
ester said:
That wasn't making excuses either just perusing the why's around how we have ended up here! Even if it isn't true and is just the perception of those doing it surely unless someone can get to the bottoms of the how's and whys we won't see any change. Especially as no one can monitor what happens outside of competition, so we have to get to the point that people don't think it necessary or helpful.
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ester, how many more people do we need to be out there monitoring? the people that have left yards have given testimony to FEI and still nothing is done about it. Dr Gerd Hauschmann (sp) dissected "broken" horses to find enlarged parotid glands, ossification at the third, at the atlas, spinal injuries, broken jaws... do we really need to sit on our laurels and ponder any more - are we all really to believe that because they ride like this in warm up, it's not like that at home??? It's been years and years now people have written letters, spoken up and hardly anything has changed.
 
I thought that was ester's point though, you can't have an FEI monitor in every competition yard so the pressure to change has to come from a different perspective.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone give a good explanation of why rollkur-type training is advantageous, would be interesting to hear more from Goldenstar's experience of that trainer. Because it seems to me that it's one of those things where you need to understand why people feel it is useful, to be able to counter it at an individual level rather than just banning things when the horses are in the public eye.

I don't think there's any doubt that some of these horses are very very reactive, just look at Spencer's horse... Super Nova? super nervous ;) But not all of them are, watching one in the freestyle just now and I thought it was a fabulous advert for the forgiving nature of the warmblood... :rolleyes:

For me, it would be more useful to come from the judging (reward good contact, neck out, back soft) because to me it was the success of Valegro who started to change the way people were thinking in the competition arena, at least. The kicking/yanking combinations stopped being able to dominate. It's hard (though not impossible, clearly) to produce harmony in the ring when there's a lack of it in the training. JMHO.
 
milliepops said:
I thought that was ester's point though, you can't have an FEI monitor in every competition yard so the pressure to change has to come from a different perspective.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone give a good explanation of why rollkur-type training is advantageous, would be interesting to hear more from Goldenstar's experience of that trainer. Because it seems to me that it's one of those things where you need to understand why people feel it is useful, to be able to counter it at an individual level rather than just banning things when the horses are in the public eye.

I don't think there's any doubt that some of these horses are very very reactive, just look at Spencer's horse... Super Nova? super nervous ;) But not all of them are, watching one in the freestyle just now and I thought it was a fabulous advert for the forgiving nature of the warmblood... :rolleyes:

For me, it would be more useful to come from the judging (reward good contact, neck out, back soft) because to me it was the success of Valegro who started to change the way people were thinking in the competition arena, at least. The kicking/yanking combinations stopped being able to dominate. It's hard (though not impossible, clearly) to produce harmony in the ring when there's a lack of it in the training. JMHO.
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If that's the case I apologise for misreading :(.

You can watch a video (if it's still up) of Anky explaining her reasons for LDR which I believe was the FEI appropriate word for rollkur. It's clear why people use rollkur - it's been explained so many times. Some riders and trainers believe that hyperflexing a horses' neck gives the impression of submission or on the bit in competition which gets the marks and it also superficially raises the horses back by overbending the neck - nothing to do with the natural lifting when a horse moves properly. Also, that neck carriage produces the high-flicking front legs which draw in the crowds (and the money). It's purely aesthetics, a disguise if you will and how many young horses "look" well schooled when in fact they are just overbent and hollow in many ways. Yet the judges supposedly can't "see" the trick and the rider gets high marks for that amazingly high neck carriage - it was favoured by the judges. Just see how well Salinero did - where were his legs? What did his back look like? Gal and Blue Hors Matine? Many more...

I don't personally think it's to do with type of horse - some riders use hyperflexion as a check on a "strong/highly strung horse" - personally for me the most sickening use of it. I thought the whole point of dressage was to have calm and light obedient dance partner. Not a horse you have fight with and use your ENTIRE body by leaning back to control.
 
The show jumping world can be a hard one for horses (I used to work as a groom) and it does sadden me. The problem is, it is a job and results are generally placed ahead of equine welfare.

There are some superb riders out there though. Watching someone like Bruce Menzies ride round a course of jumps is a joy - just a shame he's not had as much luck as some. Great video here, he's just so quiet (and yes, that is a stallion jumping a grand prix course in a snaffle) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B33Q6_TAhgQ
 
MotherOfChickens said:
rollkur was 'invented' by Uphoff for Rembrandt so legend has it.
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It is even older than Uphoff/Rembrandt... already Paul Schockemöhle rode his horses on purpose heavily overbent in the 70s. The German TV commentator H.-H. Isenbart called him out: " What all his horses do... they bite their breasts best." Will never forget it!!
 
Turitea said:
It is even older than Uphoff/Rembrandt... already Paul Schockemöhle rode his horses on purpose heavily overbent in the 70s. The German TV commentator H.-H. Isenbart called him out: " What all his horses do... they bite their breasts best." Will never forget it!!
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true enough-maybe wasnt named as such then. christ, remember what Deister used to have on his head?!
 
Turitea said:
It is even older than Uphoff/Rembrandt... already Paul Schockemöhle rode his horses on purpose heavily overbent in the 70s. The German TV commentator H.-H. Isenbart called him out: " What all his horses do... they bite their breasts best." Will never forget it!!
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See I think that this could have a lot of weight if done now. There will be a lot of people sitting at home thinking things such as we are, however we have no weight or audience. The commentators, if commenting already on a 'heavy bridle' are clearly having some thoughts, yet they have the platform to make a difference without any backlash from the equine community, as many will be on the same page.
 
tallyho! said:
If that's the case I apologise for misreading :(.

You can watch a video (if it's still up) of Anky explaining her reasons for LDR which I believe was the FEI appropriate word for rollkur. It's clear why people use rollkur - it's been explained so many times. Some riders and trainers believe that hyperflexing a horses' neck gives the impression of submission or on the bit in competition which gets the marks and it also superficially raises the horses back by overbending the neck - nothing to do with the natural lifting when a horse moves properly. Also, that neck carriage produces the high-flicking front legs which draw in the crowds (and the money). It's purely aesthetics, a disguise if you will and how many young horses "look" well schooled when in fact they are just overbent and hollow in many ways. Yet the judges supposedly can't "see" the trick and the rider gets high marks for that amazingly high neck carriage - it was favoured by the judges. Just see how well Salinero did - where were his legs? What did his back look like? Gal and Blue Hors Matine? Many more...

I don't personally think it's to do with type of horse - some riders use hyperflexion as a check on a "strong/highly strung horse" - personally for me the most sickening use of it. I thought the whole point of dressage was to have calm and light obedient dance partner. Not a horse you have fight with and use your ENTIRE body by leaning back to control.
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It would almost be funny to see those riders try to use that technique on my horse. The more tightly you hold the reins, the more pissed off he gets. Overbend him like that and not let him work properly and he'll just fight you the entire time and the rider never wins. Thankfully he doesn't have to go through that.

You don't see Carl Hester doing that to Nip Tuck and he's quite a highly strung horse. Seen him take a disliking to a cameraman before at a show.
 
eahotson said:
Have some sympathy but having been involved at one time in pony jumping, I owned a very good jumping pony I have to say the children learn from their parents and a good many will have a good hiding for mistakes riding in the ring.I once saw a man hit his 13 year old daughter so hard across the face she nearly fell over.It was done in full public view and nothing was said.
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Was that recently? People usually would intervene if they saw a child being hit, that's all.

I did see a girl at a show recently get eliminated for the same thing and she got called to the judges box. Still allowed to get back on and compete in the next class, saw her parents shouting at her too. Think a full ban for the day or rest of season would have been good but there we are.
 
yup milliepops got me right, you can't watch what goes on at home so you have to look at why and try and get away from that - getting away from rewarding leg movers might be a start too (that is not to say that you shouldn't monitor warm ups etc when out obviously, and I don't think a lot of monitoring is at all sufficient currently- some of the noseband checks are clearly laughable yet a gauge to remove doubt has been around for years and no top rider, including our own if I read correctly agrees with it's use).

you don't just throw it to a horse though rach, it comes from a program of learned helplessness.
 
rachk89 said:
Was that recently? People usually would intervene if they saw a child being hit, that's all.

I did see a girl at a show recently get eliminated for the same thing and she got called to the judges box. Still allowed to get back on and compete in the next class, saw her parents shouting at her too. Think a full ban for the day or rest of season would have been good but there we are.
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No not recently, it's probably done round the back in the box now.Sorry I am cynical.On this occasion the comment made to me by another observer was that she deserved it as her father had spent a lot of money on her ponies!Se was a top junior at the time and frequently featured in horse magazines.
 
Only got to see the highlights so it was mostly the "smoother" bits. The trend seems to be what looks like a hackamore with some sort of bit like Cian O'Connor had.

I much prefer watching the high level eventing they look so much smoother there also seem to be so many more horses wearing "simple" tack even going xc in snaffles. That's one of the reasons I find Michael Jung so good to watch as his horses are usually in snaffles and no martingales yet it looks smooth same with William Fox Pitt.

I have noticed a huge increase in the trend of using ear covers used to watch eventing when I was a child in the nineties and there wasn't a single horse with them.

I am also a huge fan of Charlotte Dujardin and Carl Hester due to them being so keen to let their horses be horses.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Only got to see the highlights so it was mostly the "smoother" bits. The trend seems to be what looks like a hackamore with some sort of bit like Cian O'Connor had.

I much prefer watching the high level eventing they look so much smoother there also seem to be so many more horses wearing "simple" tack even going xc in snaffles. That's one of the reasons I find Michael Jung so good to watch as his horses are usually in snaffles and no martingales yet it looks smooth same with William Fox Pitt.

I have noticed a huge increase in the trend of using ear covers used to watch eventing when I was a child in the nineties and there wasn't a single horse with them.

I am also a huge fan of Charlotte Dujardin and Carl Hester due to them being so keen to let their horses be horses.
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Watching Micheal Jung and Sam go cross country with no martingale in a snaffle AND making the biggest tracks in the world look so easy is a joy to watch. As a few others... the best of the best really are excellent horse men and women and watching them is a lesson in horsemanship.
 
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