Those of you who are 'self taught'...

[kerilli]

On the other hand, is no tuition worse than bad tuition?

The only thing I regret doing with my old cob was having a couple of lessons (about a decade ago) with a fully qualified BHS instructor (actually used to teach at an Equine college) who encouraged me to "saw" him onto an outline, pull at his mouth, bit him up and put more and more weight on him to improve him for the show ring. I did it for a very short period, didn't like it and went back to working him on a longer rein and focussing on hacking and having fun rather than that sort of schooling. I genuinely believe he would be a lot less sound now had I persisted with her tuition.

Oh, I've been in a similar situation too. There was the FBHS who had me on the lunge as a teenager, cracking the whip under my mare's tail to make her suddenly shoot forwards (because she said the mare wasn't forward enough, and then yelling at me when I socked her in the chops, but refusing to let me hold onto the mane or a neckstrap... no win situation, right there.
Or the BHSI who tightened her own horse's crank noseband with her foot against its jaw for leverage (yes, really, I witnessed this) and informed me that unless it was that tight she 'couldn't get him on the bit'. I didn't let her do that to my horse...

Trying to sort the rubbish from the good from the great is very very difficult... which is probably why I get rather evangelical about great trainers!

 

[PapaFrita]

This has got me thinking... (!!) What about people who have nothing BUT lessons? This is fairly common out here; you join a club, acquire a RI who watches/instructs every time you ride. This person will be there to walk courses with you and basically spoon feed you. Does this create an unhealthy 'dependency'? I know people who haven't seemed to progressed in years and years, despite constant instruction. In my case, I am constantly being discouraged from jumping on my own, and yet I find it incredibly educational to put up my own jumps, distances etc and helps me resolve issues for myself. I welcome good instruction, of course, but find 'me time' invaluable as well.

 

[kerilli]

^^^ yes, exactly. but great instructors also know when to just watch and only give the odd bit of input... letting you work it out for yourself a bit, and just steering you a little where necessary.
but sometimes there's a lot to be said for just you, the horse, and no distractions, i agree.

 

[JFTDWS]

I would never trust an instructor I haven't seen ride my horse. I love seeing someone get on him and make him go better, more relaxed and flowing that I ever could.

I've never seen anyone ride Fergs better than me (and it wouldn't be hard to!). I would have a lot more faith in an instructor who could. The last instructor I considered lessons with tried to ride him and failed horrifically. I'm undecided as to whether to trust my instinct (she was riding him "wrong") or assume I've screwed up his training.

dafthoss has ridden him xc well, and more bravely than me, though.

I don't think that's very "wrong" - of course you are the person most invested in you and your horse's safety and enjoyment. If your horse is comfortable, its doing what you want it to do safely and happily, and you both have a decent understanding of what you want to accomplish, then there is no problem. You sound very sensible!

I'm not sensible at all - believe me! Generally, if I need to push beyond my own limits, I watch people who can do it right, read books, attempt to mimic it, film, watch it back, beat myself up for doing it wrong, try again. Try harder, fail better? It's not a very streamlined approach, but it has some (limited) success.

But, as you say, it's a different matter at higher levels where the risks are greater and the performance has to be more accurate, pushing boundaries etc.

Oh, I've been in a similar situation too. There was the FBHS who had me on the lunge as a teenager, cracking the whip under my mare's tail to make her suddenly shoot forwards (because she said the mare wasn't forward enough, and then yelling at me when I socked her in the chops, but refusing to let me hold onto the mane or a neckstrap... no win situation, right there.
Or the BHSI who tightened her own horse's crank noseband with her foot against its jaw for leverage (yes, really, I witnessed this) and informed me that unless it was that tight she 'couldn't get him on the bit'. I didn't let her do that to my horse...

Trying to sort the rubbish from the good from the great is very very difficult... which is probably why I get rather evangelical about great trainers!

Some "instructors" are vile and should be taken out and shot.

The trouble with "great trainers" is my feeling of horrific inadequacy. Surely really good trainers want to teach successful partnerships competing at decent levels. Realistically, no matter how well I learn to ride, I have a glass ceiling with mine due to size and athletic ability given that I have no intention of swapping them. (I firmly believe my own limits are lower than the ponies' though!) Therefore, why would anyone half way decent consider teaching us?

I'm aware that is also a flawed logic, but it's enough of a niggling doubt in my mind to shy away from training. (It might also be fair to point out that a sports psychologist might do more for me than any trainer could )

 

[dafthoss]

This has got me thinking... (!!) What about people who have nothing BUT lessons? This is fairly common out here; you join a club, acquire a RI who watches/instructs every time you ride. This person will be there to walk courses with you and basically spoon feed you. Does this create an unhealthy 'dependency'? I know people who haven't seemed to progressed in years and years, despite constant instruction. In my case, I am constantly being discouraged from jumping on my own, and yet I find it incredibly educational to put up my own jumps, distances etc and helps me resolve issues for myself. I welcome good instruction, of course, but find 'me time' invaluable as well.

I think this can be unhealthy too. Its not as common over here but there are a few instructors I know who's pupils are very reliant on them for every thing, wont do any thing without them there and make very little progress despite lots of lessons and have very low confidence.

There is also a difference between recognising that you need tuition and struggling to find the right person and thinking that you don't need any help what so ever. Those that recognise the fact they need help, do lots of research and analyse them selves can come out of it ok. Those that think the don't need any help often do more than most.

I love having lessons but it has taken me a while to find the right people, partly hindered by me and my hang ups admittedly. Good lessons should leave you feeling like you have improved, have stuff to work on and haven't done any thing that hinders your horse.

 

[Kat]

I think PF that the situation you describe us just as problematic. I've seen instructors who are so prescriptive they may as well ride the horse for you but good ones teach independence too. I have been in lessons (at riding schools) where we have all got off to walk related distances, or where the Instructor asks you how you plan to deal with an issue or why you had a problem. Where you are asked to assess the horse or to dissect what someone else has done. This can produce riders who are cspable of scholling or competing alone.

 

[kerilli]

Some "instructors" are vile and should be taken out and shot.

The trouble with "great trainers" is my feeling of horrific inadequacy. Surely really good trainers want to teach successful partnerships competing at decent levels. Realistically, no matter how well I learn to ride, I have a glass ceiling with mine due to size and athletic ability given that I have no intention of swapping them. (I firmly believe my own limits are lower than the ponies' though!) Therefore, why would anyone half way decent consider teaching us?

I'm aware that is also a flawed logic, but it's enough of a niggling doubt in my mind to shy away from training. (It might also be fair to point out that a sports psychologist might do more for me than any trainer could )

Agree with the first point. Especially the ones who hate your horse, or want to jock you off and get the ride on your horse!

I know a truly GREAT trainer and I have seen him being as patient and kind (but rigorous) with an almost-beginner as with someone working on piaffe and passage.
If you are paying their £x per hr fee, you deserve their best, no matter what level you are at.
I agree though, I've seen trainers who obviously despised riders of the lower levels, and thought it a total waste of their time. Which is fine as long as they don't try to take the money...

 

[PapaFrita]

^^^ yes, exactly. but great instructors also know when to just watch and only give the odd bit of input... letting you work it out for yourself a bit, and just steering you a little where necessary.
but sometimes there's a lot to be said for just you, the horse, and no distractions, i agree.

You're quite right about constant 'direction' being distracting; I think it affects your 'feel' or rather, you're not thinking about how your horse feels for listening to what you're being told.

 

[PapaFrita]

I think PF that the situation you describe us just as problematic. I've seen instructors who are so prescriptive they may as well ride the horse for you but good ones teach independence too. I have been in lessons (at riding schools) where we have all got off to walk related distances, or where the Instructor asks you how you plan to deal with an issue or why you had a problem. Where you are asked to assess the horse or to dissect what someone else has done. This can produce riders who are cspable of scholling or competing alone.

TBH my RI was a bit of a knob; feedback was mostly negative and he never EVER listened to what I had to say about a situation. I remember having a lovely bouncy canter and feeling really well set up for a combination and he made me pull out (in retrospect I should've just gone and jumped it). Another time I felt horse really really back off (most unusual for him!) and I got a *******ing for pulling him up; it felt really wrong. No matter what I had to say about it.
I think teaching people to walk distances is essential, as is getting riders to think different scenarios through for themselves. I know someone who has been competing for about 10 years and still doesn't know how to do walk a distance. I actually showed him, but he prefers to be told how to ride them. His results reflect this dependence on RI.

 

[skint1]

I'm not self taught, I was taught informally by someone really good and I really enjoy learning that way but I know that perhaps I am not technically as good as I should be and I want my horse to be happy to carry me. I plan to start having formal lessons on my horse as soon as I can afford it because I think she would benefit from it if I were a bet

 

[Pebbles]

I think Anna Sewell said it perfectly...

I am GLAD I had/have instructors, to save my horses from many of the mistakes I might have made, mistakes that day-in-day out might destroy a horse physically or mentally.
I don't think it is fair on the animal to try to carve your own path when that's a path that has already been cut through the jungle by hundreds of thousands of horsemen and -women, and horses. I still made mistakes when on my own, unfortunately, and some of those still haunt me, but I made a lot less of them thanks to good instructors.
Unless the rider has great natural balance and almost overriding sensitivity to the horse, I cannot see how being 'self taught' has been easy on the horses.
And something a great trainer says, at the right moment, can save months of struggling...

^^ Brillian ^^

And I totally believe you need someone on the ground to quickly point out our faults before they become set in our muscle memory and we keep making them. Another pair of eyes is invaluable. We are so unaware of the faults we make and a small change can make a world of difference.

 

[kez1001]

I'd say I was half and half. My family are not well off and we could not afford lessons so as a pony mad girl of seven I mucked out and filled water buckets/haynets for an elderly lady who kept her ponies in field behind our house. In return I got to ride her Shetland x Heinz 57 who was 11hh of sheer cheek and who frequently ditched me in puddles and kicked and bit for good measure. I didn't learn how to ride but I learned how to stay on and balance. I never knew how to tack up as it didn't have tack just a felt pad and head collar. My first experience of a formal lesson was aged 13 at a riding school my dad friend kept a horse at. I remember being shouted at constantly to keep my heels down and reins short. I found it all a bit dull and was not inspired to want to do much in an arena! Though we did jump some cool coloured poles which was a change to logs hedges and streams

I'm still not the best in lessons. I always feel like the poor kid trying to fit in and keep up. I do however work very hard with my horses though I've trusted the wrong instructors in the past and certainly came across a few of the do everything my way types! Now I feel I stick to same instructors and usually only one lesson on flat and one jumping a month. I hack mostly so only school once or twice a week so weekly lessons I'd have no time to do homework. I don't see any benefit for me in weekly lessons as you need time to improve and put work in. However I see some people and think perhaps with more money and tuition I would be doing better but only with lessons from the right people! Too much of the wrong advice is worse than none at all in my experience as I've certainly had the wrong people giving me their say. Equally though my trusted instructors have helped me have some major breakthroughs with my horses and those lessons are priceless

 

[Kat]

JFTD don't be put off by "big name" or top instructors. I have recently had two lessons with a grand prix dressage rider and each one enabled me to make a real step forward with L and at no point did I feel looked down on, even though I have never competed affiliated and was just aiming for a prelim test with my cheap youngster and others at the clinic were working at a much higher level.

Also a few years ago I did a couple of xc clinics with a FBHS on a horse hired from a riding school. I was the only person who didn't either own a horse or work with horses but I got loads out if it and never felt the poor relation.

Give them a go, if you don't like it just don't go back, but it could help you move forward.

 

[JFTDWS]

JFTD don't be put off by "big name" or top instructors...

Give them a go, if you don't like it just don't go back, but it could help you move forward.

This would be a sensible approach. If only I were sensible...

Fortunately, dafthoss is bullying me into some training, so perhaps from little acorns and all that

 

[Kat]

Go dafthoss!

 

[Lolo]

Go dafthoss

I can fully sympathise about instructors knocking you right down- Al had a lesson which set her and Reg back to the point they are only just regaining confidence now, 2 years later. This instructor is usually very respected, greatly liked and very good. But she really got it wrong ina big way in this one lesson. Now, Al will not do SJ clinics and only jumps with people she trusts. She was told (age 16...) that her horse and her were unsuited and we should get something better...

JFTD, try some JA clinics. He is genuinely awesome, and very good with whatever he is given. If he can be positive about Reg, he can be positive about anything

 

[millitiger]

I had a lot of training from 16-19 as I was a WP at a classical dressage yard and then worked for a few international eventers.

Since then (7 years... gulp!) I haven't had a lot of training at all.
I've muddled along with a succession of young horses and kind of thought as we were 'only' doing BD Elementary and jumping Intro/PN that I didn't need a huge amount of help and had sporadic lessons when I had an issue or when I had some spare cash.

Wrong!
My riding and my confidence in my own ability has gone backwards and I have only realised in hindsight.

I videoed a lot and while it is really helpful, it is no comparison to having experienced eyes on the ground to point out when things are good so you can memorise how that microsecond feels, to correct minor issues etc.
It is good to see it afterwards and know where you went wrong but it is better if you can realise where it went wrong when you are still on the horse

Vinnie is coming back from Vittoria this weekend and I have a lesson there on Saturday and another 3 lessons already booked in for June.
I am determined we are going to hit the ground running, I am going to ride Vinnie to the best of my ability and we are going to get as much help as I can afford.

 

[JFTDWS]

JFTD, try some JA clinics. He is genuinely awesome, and very good with whatever he is given. If he can be positive about Reg, he can be positive about anything

Who what now?

Not in the loop, peoples!

 

[Lolo]

John Adams Dafthoss will verify, he's awesome.

 

[JFTDWS]

Google tells me he is either a long dead president of the US or a composer... Neither of which sound like the right JA... I shall do some stalking!

 

[Lolo]

Al's got 3 videos of lessons on her YT, which aren't muted so you can hear his style if that's any help...

 

[dafthoss]

Go dafthoss!

John Adams Dafthoss will verify, he's awesome.

Yep john adams managed not to shoot me or the pony when he galloped round with his ears up my nose and still managed to be behind the leg whilst running flat out at the jumps and had a melt down in one corner each time. If he can be nice and still manage humour when that's happening he can be humorous about any thing! Sadly no videos of that as I left mum in charge of the camera so she got the one photo with us in from the whole session .

 

[siennamum]

I think Kerilli has summed up my views perfectly.

I have as many lessons as I can afford. I actually enjoy lessons/clinics as much as competing and find them an end in themselves really. I am a bit rubbish on my own though and will trot round aimlessly or get bad tempered.

I think when you have lots of lessons (in a RC for instance) you can very quickly spot a rubbish instructor and are happy to ignore them (or confront them).

Sometimes my lessons are little more than hiring an arena, someone trustworthy to do the poles & make you man up and a pair of eyes on the ground you trust & who knows you and the horse. I certainly don't expect great insight from every lesson.

People I see who are self taught, do seem to have simple positional faults though a couple do pretty well so I suppose I can't criticise as I am pretty rubbish - for all my lessons.