SpottyTB
Well-Known Member
No don’t help, neither ride their horses.. I let one ride mine as I like her/she rides well but I don’t rely on that
Those of you with your own small yards...
- Thread starter SpottyTB
- Start date
sunnyone
Well-Known Member
We have just under 4 hectares which we divided into 6 paddocks sharing 4 shelters. Horses were kept in pairs and paddocks rotated regularly.
We took in 3 horses over 8 years and weren't looking to make money but we did charge the going rate for a field share which was about 2 euros a day, and would have appreciated:
Company to ride out with, that never happened as the owners always visited at obscure times.and irregularly as if they preferred alone time.
Cover for when we wanted to go away: we thought that was happening through a long term owner but she once she split from her partner she asked the children to do the checks. We once came home early and found none of the horses had water during a near heatwave. All the girls had to do was turn on a tap, no hard work needed! Given the capacity of the water container it was obvious that it had never been topped up. Naturally I asked her to leave. Now we have an arrangement with a friend.
Hay: we calculated the cost of hay used each month, then divided it by the number of horses and only asked for payment of that share. Once we had only our own horses on the land our hay usage dropped like a stone, clearly we'd been subsidizing the others.
Life is just so much easier now with no liveries.
We took in 3 horses over 8 years and weren't looking to make money but we did charge the going rate for a field share which was about 2 euros a day, and would have appreciated:
Company to ride out with, that never happened as the owners always visited at obscure times.and irregularly as if they preferred alone time.
Cover for when we wanted to go away: we thought that was happening through a long term owner but she once she split from her partner she asked the children to do the checks. We once came home early and found none of the horses had water during a near heatwave. All the girls had to do was turn on a tap, no hard work needed! Given the capacity of the water container it was obvious that it had never been topped up. Naturally I asked her to leave. Now we have an arrangement with a friend.
Hay: we calculated the cost of hay used each month, then divided it by the number of horses and only asked for payment of that share. Once we had only our own horses on the land our hay usage dropped like a stone, clearly we'd been subsidizing the others.
Life is just so much easier now with no liveries.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
That was my initial reason for wanting a livery, another set of eyes and perhaps a bit of holiday cover, but they talk the talk and either do not understand what their words actually mean, or are lying.
I have paid help, I have a lodger who is as tidy and quiet as a hamster, his rent pays for the help, and my freelance is totally reliable and competent.
reynold
Well-Known Member
Not pointing fingers in ANY way but in working out how much you earn from the liveries are you taking into account any tax you might/might not be paying on the income?
Also - if you declare the income as part of one of your businesses - have you got appropriate insurance cover for having liveries on your property? Both custody and control and public liability. When I had my yard I had increased public liability due to being a small livery/stud business but in those days C&C wasn't a requirement. I know that apart from the utilities, maintenance, etc. costs insurance was an expensive overhead even in my day.
If not, then in these litigious times you might want to investigate covering the risk and the cost of that. Paying for appropriate insurance should be recovered from the amount you charge the livery clients.
Getting appropriate insurance, along with increasing your charges accordingly, could well make the price you need to charge beyond the local market rate...
Also - if you declare the income as part of one of your businesses - have you got appropriate insurance cover for having liveries on your property? Both custody and control and public liability. When I had my yard I had increased public liability due to being a small livery/stud business but in those days C&C wasn't a requirement. I know that apart from the utilities, maintenance, etc. costs insurance was an expensive overhead even in my day.
If not, then in these litigious times you might want to investigate covering the risk and the cost of that. Paying for appropriate insurance should be recovered from the amount you charge the livery clients.
Getting appropriate insurance, along with increasing your charges accordingly, could well make the price you need to charge beyond the local market rate...
SpottyTB
Well-Known Member
Everything is (or will be - as I haven’t done a year yet) declared and I have all insurances required.. it took me a little while to sort out for when we took the place on and had to increase from the included 3 horses to 7. It’s a minefield!!
The previous owners had no insurance cover.. they also made the liveries collect water from the stream
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
My YO used to have four liveries, she now has just me (2 horses) and we have a really good mutually beneficial system. It was effectively costing her money to have the other liveries, plus a shedload of hassle on top. She's much happier now
bouncing_ball
Well-Known Member
Think they need to be paying enough that you are getting a profit margin from them being there. Maybe write down all the annual costs, and divide by number of horses on site to get a fairer figure, and you can show them the workings.
Another thought is to try and swap these liveries for some with horses that need very restricted grass intake, so you can use the grass but still have the income from extra horses on site.
Squeak
Well-Known Member
£1.50 to feed and turnout is way way too cheap I would have thought. I'd have thought a fiver per horse would have been reasonable and still on the cheap side. They're also incredibly lucky to get 2.5 - 3 acres each, most yards I know get 1 acre per horse max and if they trash it then that's their problem and they don't get any more.
The other big thing to think about is that you get your privacy back without liveries. It's one of the things that puts me off most, having people around all the time knowing exactly where you are and what you're doing. It's my home, I don't want people to know I've done the ponies in my pyjamas on Sunday morning etc. or that I've got friends round for dinner etc. etc.
Unless you were making significant money then I wouldn't compromise one of my horses either. Also if you're wanting to have them living out then it will save you a fortune in hay and bedding as well as time, it also removes the commitment of having to do the horses by x time morning and evening, it's a complete game changer.
Tarragon
Well-Known Member
I am the sole livery on a small yard and I have two ponies. The benefits are that the owner has company for her horse, we ride out together and I am available to provide cover when they go away, which they do regularly. I think that we both think we have a very good deal!
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
We had a livery for about a year. Never again!
Santi
Member
Only have three liveries now with total of 4 horses (they use about 12 acres). Did have two more but they decided to get everybody to gang up on me which wasn’t much fun, fortunately those two left. Liveries are not an easy relationship. One of them I thought was pretty much a friend, been riding out together for years, until her husband retired and they wanted to be away every weekend. The horse got arthritic and she got a sharer to do weekends. The sharer was wrecking the school so I said the horse couldn’t use it (dragging its feet down to the membrane) and then I was the devil, she was yelling at me in my garden saying it was unfair. I very nearly turfed everyone out.
There are some farming forums about farmers experiences with liveries which are enlightening. One said he had to have different tack rooms, as soon as there were more than 4 people using one it would erupt into social warfare!
Decided to keep a few as one does poo picking for me, but no it’s not financially sensible. The water bill is huge and the insurance is eyewatering. All I do is fix fencing and no-one will ever tell me their horse broke anything. Happy to trash all your stuff. I’ve also had to ask people not to throw poo over fences into hedges.
I have one retirement livery which is much better, pays better, the owners only visit occasionally and the horse is well behaved.
It looks like the dream to have land and liveries, and that’s how I went into it, but I’m much more cynical now.
There are some farming forums about farmers experiences with liveries which are enlightening. One said he had to have different tack rooms, as soon as there were more than 4 people using one it would erupt into social warfare!
Decided to keep a few as one does poo picking for me, but no it’s not financially sensible. The water bill is huge and the insurance is eyewatering. All I do is fix fencing and no-one will ever tell me their horse broke anything. Happy to trash all your stuff. I’ve also had to ask people not to throw poo over fences into hedges.
I have one retirement livery which is much better, pays better, the owners only visit occasionally and the horse is well behaved.
It looks like the dream to have land and liveries, and that’s how I went into it, but I’m much more cynical now.
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
I think even big commercial yards are struggling to make ends meet with cost of electric / hay making etc all increasing hugely and the very poor weather
If you really take into account, insurance, tax, utilities, the extra wear and tear on fencing, school, stables etc. and then extra muck collection, extra field maintenance (even more so if you're having to buy in forage for yours) it's almost certainly not going to be worth it. We even had extra drive maintenance (long old driveway) as 6x additional visits a day + boxes etc. all trashed the pot holes more than we do on our own.
Write a big long list of everything (honestly) then mark up what would be saved or reduced if you had less horses on the land and get a clear view of the maths.
I personally found the time doing odd jobs added up too "could you just" came up more and more over time - pop a feed in, hang a haynet, just let the vet in for a vac, then into my OH unloading hay with tractor ......
we had just simple rent of the fields and spare yard - not even DIY. But still the "could you just" mounted up over time.
I did always check on them late night and often added water because it wasn't the poor horses fault the owners left at 5pm and weren't back until 9am with one small bucket.
I would honestly add up the time too - even if you think it's not that much.
If you really take into account, insurance, tax, utilities, the extra wear and tear on fencing, school, stables etc. and then extra muck collection, extra field maintenance (even more so if you're having to buy in forage for yours) it's almost certainly not going to be worth it. We even had extra drive maintenance (long old driveway) as 6x additional visits a day + boxes etc. all trashed the pot holes more than we do on our own.
Write a big long list of everything (honestly) then mark up what would be saved or reduced if you had less horses on the land and get a clear view of the maths.
I personally found the time doing odd jobs added up too "could you just" came up more and more over time - pop a feed in, hang a haynet, just let the vet in for a vac, then into my OH unloading hay with tractor ......
we had just simple rent of the fields and spare yard - not even DIY. But still the "could you just" mounted up over time.
I did always check on them late night and often added water because it wasn't the poor horses fault the owners left at 5pm and weren't back until 9am with one small bucket.
I would honestly add up the time too - even if you think it's not that much.
SpottyTB
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all your replies!
It’s very difficult but I think I have made the decision.
As far as liveries go, they are lovely people and pretty easy to have on the yard. Although I think I’m quite laid back.. I blame the new “good life” lifestyle.. I used to be hard as nails
.
This being said, there are obviously niggles - we all do things differently.
Interestingly since it’s been pointed out about the little jobs you do, I’ve realised that actually we fetch forage / bedding in my trailer and don’t charge for that as I’m going anyway.. but we also then unload / stack it.
I shall do the list… and use it as evidence when I speak to them. Contract wise, it’s 4 weeks… would 8 be a fairer notice? I feel dreadful still, neither livery is well off and livery spaces aren’t easy to find down here but as my husband said today.. we didn’t buy this place to compromise on how I keep mine.
It’s very difficult but I think I have made the decision.
As far as liveries go, they are lovely people and pretty easy to have on the yard. Although I think I’m quite laid back.. I blame the new “good life” lifestyle.. I used to be hard as nails
. This being said, there are obviously niggles - we all do things differently.
Interestingly since it’s been pointed out about the little jobs you do, I’ve realised that actually we fetch forage / bedding in my trailer and don’t charge for that as I’m going anyway.. but we also then unload / stack it.
I shall do the list… and use it as evidence when I speak to them. Contract wise, it’s 4 weeks… would 8 be a fairer notice? I feel dreadful still, neither livery is well off and livery spaces aren’t easy to find down here
but as my husband said today.. we didn’t buy this place to compromise on how I keep mine.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
8 might make you feel better. But it’s a long time when you want to start repairing the paddocks.Thanks for all your replies!
It’s very difficult but I think I have made the decision.
As far as liveries go, they are lovely people and pretty easy to have on the yard. Although I think I’m quite laid back.. I blame the new “good life” lifestyle.. I used to be hard as nails
This being said, there are obviously niggles - we all do things differently.
Interestingly since it’s been pointed out about the little jobs you do, I’ve realised that actually we fetch forage / bedding in my trailer and don’t charge for that as I’m going anyway.. but we also then unload / stack it.
I shall do the list… and use it as evidence when I speak to them. Contract wise, it’s 4 weeks… would 8 be a fairer notice? I feel dreadful still, neither livery is well off and livery spaces aren’t easy to find down here
AmyMay
Situation normal
You could give 4 weeks notice, but give some leeway if they are struggling.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Every way I have looked at doing what you are doing it’s seems that subsisting other peoples hobby and trashing your land is the inevitable outcome .
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Jambarissa
Well-Known Member
We used to have this year's ago. Plenty of land, only real cost was having muck heap removed so I guess we made money but charged very little. It was good to have them around for security and help and so we didn't have any horses being left alone when we rode.
If it's cost neutral AND they are no hassle I'd keep them. Otherwise I'd get rid and save yourself the labour of additional feeding even if costs remain the same.
If it's cost neutral AND they are no hassle I'd keep them. Otherwise I'd get rid and save yourself the labour of additional feeding even if costs remain the same.
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
OP sounds like you've made your decision - on notice period I would keep it short initially (flex if they are nice and desperate) - you don't know how badly they will react and how horrible an atmosphere it might be for 4 weeks (let alone 8!)
Also might be worth a tidy up and collection of anything you've lent them. I've had three people here in 10 years and everyone has stolen things when they left - not of massive value but still irritating. From taking all the tie up rings out of the stables to the old metal scaffolding plank used on the muck heap.
People can be weird especially if they disagree with why you have asked them to leave.
Also might be worth a tidy up and collection of anything you've lent them. I've had three people here in 10 years and everyone has stolen things when they left - not of massive value but still irritating. From taking all the tie up rings out of the stables to the old metal scaffolding plank used on the muck heap.
People can be weird especially if they disagree with why you have asked them to leave.
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SantaVera
Well-Known Member
I'm just back home after a visit to a national trust property. A slice of cake was £4.50! And people want a stable a tack room and fields well fenced and a menage for £25 a week. That's less than one slice of cake a day.They need to get real everything costs so much, timber, insurance, electric, everything has gone up massively these last couple of years.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
A Seven / eight acre paddock has just gone up for sale near us.
It has a very scruffy box profile barn it’s a smallish lowish barn.
It does have a water supply .
It’s tight at the gate not easy to get your car off the road and the barn is very close to gate .
It’s got a asking price of
85,000.
Livery does reflect the cost of the facilities people expect and horses need .
Grass and space are expensive and are probably the most important facility a yard offers .
It has a very scruffy box profile barn it’s a smallish lowish barn.
It does have a water supply .
It’s tight at the gate not easy to get your car off the road and the barn is very close to gate .
It’s got a asking price of
85,000.
Livery does reflect the cost of the facilities people expect and horses need .
Grass and space are expensive and are probably the most important facility a yard offers .
SEL
Well-Known Member
That would be 2-3x the price down here! (South east)
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Ps I have missed a not out of my last paragraph I meant livery does not reflect the cost .
Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
Did wonder!
paddy555
Well-Known Member
why so cheap? (Devon)
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It’s about the going rate for here .
The barn is no more than somewhere to build a new one and it’s very close to three houses who may make life difficult .
It does not have Planning permission for amenity use so that would need sorting for horses ,if you made the barn into stables you are less than ten or twelve metres from people houses .
Very close indeed .
But it is nice field it needs a rest and some care and definitely fencing , it’s awful beyond even someone good at that sort of thing repairing it .
I bought 4.5 acres around three ago it had access issues so it was easy for us to buy because our Road shared part of its hedge it was 20 k it has a history of amenity grazing , but it’s no issue for us as I don’t feed in the field ,it cost 5k to get the fences and gates to ID standard and a day with a JCB to find our water supply because it had no water and to build a access ramp as its lower than our road so we can get machines in .
It’s a nice little field you can’t build on it even a shelter as it has a covenant but it has a lovely sea view .
I have had it rested from the end of August the horses just went in yesterday they are very happy no mud green grass lucky boys .
ROMANY 1959
Well-Known Member
Round my way, DIY with turnout, stable, storage and a school is £50 a week. And a list of added on charges. Straw is included. But buy hay on site or get own , and us, most fields are trashed and YO won’t let anyone move to summer fields till it’s going dryer
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Equestrian Facility for sale: Lustleigh, Newton Abbot
Stables and grass field of approximately 5.51 acres (2.23 hectares) situated close to the centre of Lustleigh in good riding country. Mains water and electricity connected.
quite smart and it does have nice views.
Needtoretire
Well-Known Member
Snap, and completely agree with you. I found having a full livery (non riding) could make a few £'s especially if the horse was smallish. I've done a few over the many years and found that either the horse was bonkers and the owner lovely or the horse was a sweetheart and the owner a nutjob. Never seemed to get nice horse and nice owner !
DIY's were a variable experience but in the main, all the gear and no idea types that wanted a five star set up for £20.
SpottyTB
Well-Known Member
Update; I bit the bullet, wrote letters and had a chat with them. Our insurance has gone up anyway so I used that as the biggest reason. They’ve got until my renewal which is 45 days.
I slept so well last night. The fields will need to recover but this time next year I will have 12 acres of not hammered grazing for my horses and won’t have to supplement at all if I don’t want to.
It’s the right decision for us and the hardest bit is done. They were very lovely and understanding so that helps!
FYI Goldenstar, 7 acres near me is up for sale for 150k! Very expensive down here for land
Thanks everyone for your help!
I slept so well last night. The fields will need to recover but this time next year I will have 12 acres of not hammered grazing for my horses and won’t have to supplement at all if I don’t want to.
It’s the right decision for us and the hardest bit is done. They were very lovely and understanding so that helps!
FYI Goldenstar, 7 acres near me is up for sale for 150k! Very expensive down here for land
Thanks everyone for your help!
