Those who don’t insure

[Bellaboo18]

[/QUOTE]

At the moment I’m not. My horse is lame, the vet wants to do certain things, insurers won’t commit and I’m struggling to say yes, knowing I can’t afford it

See I suppose my point is you'd be in the same position unfortunately with or without the insurance.

 

[ihatework]

See I suppose my point is you'd be in the same position unfortunately with or without the insurance.[/QUOTE]

Yes and no.
In theory you would be self insured and have the £ saved to say yes. As it is instead of saving the premiums they are sitting with the insurance company.

Now it’s not quite that simple I appreciate and as owners we do need to consider how to access funds, with or without insurance. But OP is valid. You do have to play the insurance game if you are reliant on insurance

 

[bouncing_ball]

You can have any procedure done on your horse, insured or not, but insurance will only pay for those procedures that it considers appropriate, which may not be the same as the owner wants done.

I relish the freedom of self insuring and not having to jump to the ins co's ever changing demands.

My current horse is insured. Past ones haven’t always been. It depends on a number of factors. I still do what I think is right in all cases. I’ll always underwrite doing what I think is right.

 

[Ambers Echo]

See I suppose my point is you'd be in the same position unfortunately with or without the insurance.[/QUOTE]

That is not how I see it. I can now make decisions about what investigations to fund without any 3rd party getting involved. Insurance was meant to be for peace of mind! So having a vet recommend a course of action and then having insurers say they might or might not pay was awful. I did not have a 4 figure vet fund because i had insurance so did not feel I needed one. Now I have the money waiting and can choose what to do with it with vet advice.

 

[ycbm]

Apologies if I’m pointing out the obvious here. But if you don’t renew the policy they won’t continue to pay out on any ongoing claims.

I don't think that's true if you pay annually. I think in the wording of most policies a claim is open for 12 months from the start of the issue, and that is not related to renewing an annual policy.

I have no idea what happens on a monthly policy, but I think if they are annual policies paid in 12 instalments then you can stop at 12 instalments.

Can anyone clarify for us?
.

 

[bouncing_ball]

See I suppose my point is you'd be in the same position unfortunately with or without the insurance.

Yes and no.
In theory you would be self insured and have the £ saved to say yes. As it is instead of saving the premiums they are sitting with the insurance company.

Now it’s not quite that simple I appreciate and as owners we do need to consider how to access funds, with or without insurance. But OP is valid. You do have to play the insurance game if you are reliant on insurance[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on your liquidity too. I’ve always had the option to put £5K of vet bills on a 3 year interest free credit card and pay it off over time. So I’ve not felt constrained insured or not insured.

I insure if I think it’s going to be financially advantageous to do so and if horse doesn’t have too many exclusions.

 

[ycbm]

Hmm I dont get this control thing? Even when insured I felt in control of what procedures were done on my horse.

You are in control if you pay for the treatment yourself if it's something the insurers don't want done, but you'll also probably invalidate your insurance for death of the horse if you lose it and they might refuse to pay for other treatments which would have been paid for.

Many people also feel forced into treatments they don't want done by the 12 month time limit that will mean they will run out of time end up with no payment for treatment if they try rest first.

There are a great number of horses, in my opinion, receiving treatments for conditions which would recover with just time in a field. We used to call it Dr Green.
.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I don't think that's true if you pay annually. I think in the wording of most policies a claim is open for 12 months from the start of the issue, and that is not related to renewing an annual policy.

I have no idea what happens on a monthly policy, but I think if they are annual policies paid in 12 instalments then you can stop at 12 instalments.

Can anyone clarify for us?
.

it varies company to company. I had one that was annual and I didn’t renew. But I successfully claimed 9 months later for unexpected related costs on the previous claim!!

I had a horse on trial loan that I paid monthly insurance costs for. I claimed £3.5k in month 2. Horse went back in month 3. Insurance cancelled policy end of month 3 as I didn’t own or loan horse. I was amazed I wasn’t liable for next 9 months payments.

I think you have to read small print about cover for each company.

 

[Bellaboo18]

You are in control if you pay for the treatment yourself if it's something the insurers don't want done, but you'll also probably invalidate your insurance for death of the horse if you lose it and they might refuse to pay for other treatments which would have been paid for.

Many people also feel forced into treatments they don't want done by the 12 month time limit that will mean they will run out of time end up with no payment for treatment if they try rest first.

There are a great number of horses, in my opinion, receiving treatments for conditions which would recover with just time in a field. We used to call it Dr Green.
.

Yeah sorry I do understand now
I suppose my attitude was I insured, did everything I would of without insurance, paid myself and then the insurance paid me back. I was in the fortunate position the insurance was a bonus. It paid off having the insurance in this instance.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Yes sorry I was missing the point that without he insurance you'd be putting the premiums away monthly

 

[chaps89]

I don't think that's true if you pay annually. I think in the wording of most policies a claim is open for 12 months from the start of the issue, and that is not related to renewing an annual policy.

I have no idea what happens on a monthly policy, but I think if they are annual policies paid in 12 instalments then you can stop at 12 instalments.

Can anyone clarify for us?
.

It will vary company to company but as a general rule you need to be paying to continue the cover for the cover to pay out.
How you pay (monthly or annually) May or may not make a difference dependant on the individual insurers t&c’s.
Eg policy runs 1st Jan to 31st Dec. Horse has something go wrong in June that you claim for.
You pay up until your renewal so June to Dec the insurer covers the claim. You decide not to renew so even though you still have 6 months left of your claiming period (assuming you’ve not maxed out your claim) any further costs the following Jan to June aren’t covered as you’re no longer paying for the cover to be in place at the time those costs were incurred, even if the initial claim back in June started whilst covered.
It will depend on the insurer of course but this would be the usual approach.

Regarding payment method making an impact, some insurers say if you claim you have to pay the full years premium even if you want to cancel before the year is up (this is more common in car insurance) some will just say that’s the way insurance work some people claim others don’t and payments and cover just stop from the point customer requests to cancel.

If you paid up front in full for the full year you are likely to receive a pro-rata’d refund (but again will depend on your insurer and also whether you had claimed or not)
Monthly payments will generally take a final payment to cover you to the point of cancellation, if needed, then cease (again dependant on insurer and any claims you may have made)

(I’ve worked in insurance, including equine and small animal, for 12+ years)

 

[palo1]

I think it is also worth considering how to fund something that might be a chronic problem, likely to re-occur or get worse. With most, but not all insurance policies once your first 12 months of treatment is up then the exclusion kicks in and you may then need to self fund treatment, further diagnostics etc anyway. I usually insure young horses on a basic policy for a year or so whilst I work out if they are particularly accident prone or if there is a weak point in their frame or system and after that I tend not to continue insuring, having been stung by this previously. The mare that I had to treat this summer may or may not need treatment for an allergy again but it would undoubtedly be excluded from an insurance policy. I checked, after her recovery this summer, with several insurance companies and with full disclosure but all of them quoted a premium of over £700 and with an excess of £300-£500. So I would be shelling out £1000 + annually in the event of trouble. As I have a diagnosis and a clear protocol for treatment which would now not be that expensive, for that condition insurance simply can't pay for itself - another claim would result in higher premiums again!

For me, with a young horse, if there was another significant veterinary problem I would have to seriously consider retiring or PTS tbh with retirement as the first option. It is fine for me to keep a companion if that horse is happy and sound/healthy enough to enjoy life. If not then a very difficult decision about cost/treatment would have to be made. As I see it, if I have to spend £700-£1000 annually for insurance that I may never see again, that money is better off in a savings account. With a fair wind (never guaranteed with horses...) I could likely have a couple of years free of bigger vets bills and have £2-3k in the bank in case of a subsequent problem and STILL have that money. It is a gamble but I prefer the risk of insuring myself where the money is still accessible for other, unforeseen emergencies but I have had horses a very long time and am another believer in conservative treatment and Dr Green where possible. You just have to take a hit when it is something where the best treatment is immediate and clearly defined with a confident outcome.

 

[Xmas lucky]

In Ireland insurance for vet bills is not common. we don’t do investigations like in the uk only just the basis lameness work up and maybe a xray . We just retire or pts quicker than people in the uk .

 

[J&S]

In 40 years of horse/pony ownership I have never insured (for vets fees). I have been incredibly lucky I think that the question has never arrived as to "should I/shouldn't I" . All problems that have arisen have been small enough to pay as we went along, the most expensive being the treatment for annular ligament damage to my coloured mare at the cost of aprox £1,000 plus the specialist shoeing. I have a small animal vet in the family who was at Leahurst and her experiences there have made us both decide that we do not want our present ponies to undergo general anaesthetic. I would certainly pay up to £3,000.00 for a repairable injury/problem. I am a long time OAP but i keep a small job on to keep topping up my bank account really for the sake of my ponies.
However, having said that, my son bought a Bassett hound puppy a few years ago who has needed to have both his front legs operated on and he was advised to insure from the beginning and that really was worth while, he would have found the money but the insurance took some of the stress out of the situation. Pleased to report said Bassett is happy as can be now!

 

[AnShanDan]

To me the biggest issue with horse insurance is the time limited aspect which forces you into rushing to conclude any treatments when it might not be ideal and then the subsequent exclusion for any specific conditions. Often it would be better to give it time to resolve and see where you are in a few months.

My older mare isn't insured now after the premium was about to jump up when she turned 20. She also had a few exclusions including anything to do with colic and both back legs Young mare is still insured but with her value at the minimum to keep the premium down.

In my mind I have £5k set aside for vets fees for my older mare. We've just found that she has a broken tooth so just hoping that isn't going to bankrupt me

I have fairly recently taken out dog insurance with the NFU for my pup. That covers him permanently for any chronic/ongoing conditions, so no exclusions and they will pay out, up to the vets fees limit per year, for an existing condition. It costs a bit more but worth it to me for the peace of mind.

 

[Shilasdair]

The other reason I stopped insuring is that each policy is only for a year. So you may pay premiums for a decade, never claiming, and then when your horse needs treatment you only have 12 months of cover before the policy is renewed and exclusions applied.
If you 'self insure' you are gambling that you will be able to afford that year's treatment.
In the second year of any trouble, you'll have to 'self-insure' and pay anyway.

 

[laura_nash]

I don't have a specific amount or pot, but not insuring means I generally have more in the bank, plus I am in a position I could raise a fair amount quickly if I needed to (good credit, plus I am lucky that bank of mum and dad is always there if really needed).

Since the most likely causes of vets fees with my horse will always and rightly be excluded insurance would just be taking away money I might need to cover those conditions.

Plus as Cortez already said vets fees insurance isn't really a thing here (no vet has ever even considered that I might be insured, I've used 4 different ones so far since we got here). Plus vets fees are noticeably lower (presumably related).

 

[Lipglosspukka]

I mean I have 5k in savings but would I be willing to spend it all on vet bills? I doubt it.

I think I would limit the amount I would want to spend on my current horse to about 3k (his approx market value) and would call it a day if he had something wrong that would exceed that amount.

That said I wouldn't do colic surgery, long term box rest or anything hugely invasive anyway.

 

[criso]

Apologies if I’m pointing out the obvious here. But if you don’t renew the policy they won’t continue to pay out on any ongoing claims.

Depends on the insurer, mine did. Did not renew my insurance in September. Had a horse with high liver scores from march. They not only carried on paying for ongoing tests and supplentation but when we weren't seeing improvement, I went for a full biopsy and workup in the December while I had insurance.

However what I did find is new insurers wouldn't take on a client with an active ongoing claim. I went for external injury/catastrophe insurance which I could get

That's what I have now for current horse as so much is excluded.

 

[SEL]

I took out Harry Hall cover for the liability insurance but it will also cover vets fees for cuts etc (friends horse managed to run up £800 after slicing her leg on a fence). You can add on colic but my big 2 wouldn't be put through anything serious so I didn't take out that cover. I've got £2k set aside for other stuff.

Pony insured but that's mainly because it auto renewed and I forgot!

If I get around to buying a horse I can actually ride then I'd insure for at least the first year just in case anything popped up.

 

[NLPM]

I have one insured and for the rest I have £5k in a dedicated savings account, and about £5k that I could borrow through credit card and overdraft. In an ideal world I'd feel happier having £5k per horse in case they were affected at the same time, Heaven forbid (e.g. multiple injuries in a squabble, or if they somehow got access to something which made them all ill...) but that will take me a while to build up and also seems like a lot of money to have 'just in case' - we're not rich enough for that sort of money to be spare!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We don't insure, since we were asked to jump through a million hoops when we tried to claim for loss of horse after emergency pts, or rather asked why we hadn't jumped throughthose hoops while the horse was still alive. Decided it just wasn't worth it.
However I don't think that deciding to self-insure in the middle of a claim is a brilliant idea, unless you have just come into money.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Once your claim has been accepted, the insurance will pay for any treatment or tests your vet recommends, unless you've gone for a less comprehensive cover where most things need individual authorisation even if the claim is accepted, like MRI.

 

[Red-1]

The answer to your question of how much I have available is: credit card up to 3K that I don't use so it is on standby; additional savings of around 2K.

As to the thorny question of insurance, I do insure some horses, not others. Rigsby was only insured for 3rd party with Harry Hall. Now others are riding him, I have added a cheap E&L policy (I know their rep- but it is just an additional policy!) and that is because Harry hall would cover MY liability, but not the riders who ride him. Their solution was to say to tell the riders to join... That didn't seem fair, as they are doing me a favour. They said for me to pay for them to be in, but that isn't cost effective to pay for 3 riders to join Harry Hall... I am still in Harry Hall as it is 10 million liability, the E&L is 1 million. To say they are just accompanying me for a walk around the village on a very 'safe' horse, I feel that is OK.

My young horse is with Shearwater. He is insured for vets bills. I tend to do this with a new horse, then not re-insure once there is an exclusion. Once I have an exclusion, it simply doesn't make sense to pay insurance premiums, when the very thing I am likely to claim for won't be covered.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Depends on the horse and what they would cope with.

We have 5k on a cc but the vets know they arent insured and we talk about each step and what would be good for the horse and us.

 

[Goldenstar]

I used to have around 12k in the building soc for the emergency fund ( I have more than one horse ) .
A credit card is another way it also helps your credit history if you have a card pay for a couple of things a month and pay it off .
Then the credit limit is always there for a bad situation .That is what I did while I was building up my war fund .
For one horse I think now a days you need 5k .
I love the freedom not being insured gives you , you can do things that would prevent you from claiming in the future .
For example putting gel in the hocks of a sound horse based on its age and conformation there’s no point in insuring if you want the freedom to do that sort of thing .

 

[suestowford]

I never insured my first horse, he was old when I got him and in those days there just wasn't much vet cover available for older horses. I put money aside every month, for six years, and it soon mounted up. I was lucky with that horse as he was healthy almost right to the end.
So by the time I got a young pony I already had about £5K in the bank, and I carried on stashing money in there. There is £10K tucked away in the bank now, for large vet bills and I don't touch it unless I absolutely have to. Now my young pony is getting old as well, so I know I will most likely need to spend some of it as he ages further. But at least I know it's there.

 

[Julie Ole Girl]

I have unused credit cards with more money available than I’d ever spend on a horse. I’m happy that my decision on what/how to treat is never about the cost or how much is left on my insurance, but whether I’d want to put the horse through it.

Same as me, empty credit cards, just in case, for that reason I don't insure. They rip people off and with two older girls, one is 21 and the mini is 16 they would just hammer me. I'm also a Hunt Member so as far as I'm concerned when they have to go then they carry on living in the hounds...sorry if that offends anyone!

 

[Tiddlypom]

For example putting gel in the hocks of a sound horse based on its age and conformation there’s no point in insuring if you want the freedom to do that sort of thing .

You'd get exclusions for hock issues or more if you did that while insured ?.

I've even known them exclude anything and everything to do with Cushing's and laminitis when an owner wants their healthy symptomless horse to have annual screening tests for Cushing's, as is good practice, even when the tests come back negative.

Stuff the insurance companies and their stupid inflexible ways.

 

[ycbm]

I won't insure again until they sort out:

The 12 month time period on a claim.

Excluding anything which has been investigated as a preventative measure or as part of an investigation and found to clear.
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