thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

Splashofsoy I have to admit if I had to cut down grazing etc to control barefoot I would prob think twice. They are on the best diet suitable but that's it I'm not cutting down on their playtime to control it. But than if u look at it a different way horses aren't really ment to eat grass. And tbh if my shod horse was hoping after losing a shoe I would be wondering why! The under lieing problem isn't solved by putting the shoe back on.
 
skint1 said:
It does seem to be the barefoot fanatics who have the biggest problem with accepting this.
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skint1 said:
How was I being closed minded?
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See post above :)

The original post had some great remarks, but you spoilt it with that sentence that implies all barefooters have a problem.

I am a barefoot fan. I have shod and unshod horses which I ride. So do other barefoot fans.

You will find that barefooters on HHO are people with an avid interest in health, particularly foot health. It doesn't matter if it has a shoe nailed to it or not.

So basically, we think the same. I don't know why making a dig like that is in any way useful to anyone? It is in fact very closed minded as you have made a sweeping generalisation that insults people who care very much about horses welfare.
 
horserider said:
What facts have I not got straight ? Do correct me. Haven't found one on here, have you ? That's why I'm asking , it could well be that in all the years I've been on here, I've missed them and that is quite likely judging by the speed that threads shoot down the page.


Google has a list of incidences, but can't see any on this forum.
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There are tons. We even had someone whose sister is a paid trimmer whose own horse has been long term lame. You are only seeing the stuff you want to see.
 
SplashofSoy said:
Surely the overall well being of the horse is the most important and from my experience if the horse is sound and healthy whether it has shoes on or not is really not that important.
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But if a horse is struggling without shoes due to grass, then this is a wonderful early warning to a potenial laminitis attack, with shoes you don't get that early warning and only find there is a problem when it is too late. I personally would rather deal with the issue than cover it up, restricting grass and knowing you have a healthy horse is better IMO than allowing unlimited grass and potential health risks.
 
SplashofSoy said:
It seems if a horse cant manage without shoes barefooters state you should do everything possible to help it manage and this includes for example not allowing access to grass. .
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But we only state that to people who are asking us how to keep their horses shoeless. Why we constantly then get accused of "ramming it down people's throats" - not by you - is what gets our goats :mad:

By the way there are many ways to manage a horse's access to grass without spoiling all their playtime, and no-one does it solely to be able to keep the shoes off. We would do it because we believe that it is in the best interests of the overall health of the horse.
 
cptrayes said:
But we only state that to people who are asking us how to keep their horses shoeless. Why we constantly then get accused of "ramming it down people's throats" - not by you - is what gets our goats :mad:

By the way there are many ways to manage a horse's access to grass without spoiling all their playtime, and no-one does it solely to be able to keep the shoes off. We would do it because we believe that it is in the best interests of the overall health of the horse.
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Exactly. My laminitic was out 24/7 enjoying playtime with his buddies all the time he was barefoot. No special diet, just a minor adjustment in salt lick choice. He wore a muzzle during the day. He hacked out on the Cotswolds just fine everyday with neither shoes nor boots to help.

It IS possible and that is just ONE example. It does not speak for everyone else who has a laminitic horse or for everyone who has bf horses :)

While he was shod, he was only allowed out for 4 hours according to vet and farrier. Again, personal experience. I do not speak for everybody! However I'm sure someone will be along to say I am or my statement is what ALL barefooters say Or perhaps put words in my mouth :D
 
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It's graphic in explaining it isn't it? One can only imagine the pain a laminitic horse endures, seeing that.

There are another few videos on Youtube discussing blood circulation, shock and balance on shod vs barefoot (in favour of barefoot) which I found very interesting, though can't find them now ....
 
soloequestrian said:
As one of the eccentric barefoot brigade, I believe that any nailed-on shoe is damaging to the horses hoof. I absolutely accept that in some circumstances, this damage may be outweighed by benefits, for instance I'm still not totally convinced about the no-studs thing for some sports, and some people may need to shoe at certain times of year etc. I'm fairly sure that most farriers would agree that shoeing is damaging to feet, but again they are doing a cost benefit analysis and concluding that the benefit to the owner outweighs the cost to the horse. There is also obviously a difference between a well shod and a poorly shod foot.
I wonder how those who shoe think about this? Do people accept that all shoeing is damaging, or do they feel that feet that are well shod are as healthy as those with no shoes?
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I'll be brave and answer your question :D

Hooves weren't designed to have things hammered through them and it is inevitable that this will have an effect on the natural strength that the hoof has. In an ideal world where all horses had great, strong feet that could cope with the rigours of modern riding, I would expect all to be unshod/barefoot. Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal world, all horses don't have great feet (or even good feet) that can cope with what we expect of them.

In my case, my well shod horse has healthier feet than he would have if he was barefoot. Does he have healthier feet than a barefoot horse with good, strong feet? No.

To go successfully barefoot, my horse would have to be restricted to turnout only in dry ground conditions and he would be miserable. So would I rather have a healthy, happy horse with slightly compromised feet? Ab-so-lutely!
 
Herpesas said:
To go successfully barefoot, my horse would have to be restricted to turnout only in dry ground conditions and he would be miserable. So would I rather have a healthy, happy horse with slightly compromised feet? Ab-so-lutely!
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Why? what happens if not dry, or wet with shoes?
 
cptrayes said:
Did you ever try and keep this pony on a completely grass free diet and see if it improved the soles?
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First thing we did was stable her and get vet out to check for lami etc etc but in the long term, she was a youngster, who needed to do what babies do - go out and play with her friends. This is also genetic, having researched it, not specifically related to particular grazing etc. She's on grazing now that my very special metabolically compromised horse can cope on - always long and woody, always muzzled, and soles the same. I could shut her in a stable 24/7, feed her soaked hay and try to keep her barefoot - for what benefit to her? She's perfectly happy being shod, her hooves tolerate the shoes well, and she's comfortable and able to enjoy a good life, out 24/7 with her friends.

I'm a human with health issues - I get the appropriate medication and support. It's like saying to me - try these natural remedies for you problems, they might work or they might not, but you can't have modern medication 'cause it's 'wrong' and might cause side effects. Really? I quite like being active and able to live a fulfilling life thank you!
 
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I consider myself phenomenally lucky to have a big beautiful barefoot lad who has good strong feet. I did worry, though as we used do a bit of roadwork - I worried he would wear all his hoof away and they were also prone to more chipping when he went out on the road so I altered my regime - problem sorted;). Boots are a nono as none in the UK fit him and any shoes he had will cost over a hundred pound, given his size.

To keep him barefoot requires some, but not a lot of preventative work, eg magnesium supplement, (but that's mainly cause he's an itchy boy), vits and mins, being a little careful if I think he is showing signs of being foot sore and 6 weeks "mini manicures" from the farrier which cost only £20.:) This works well for us. On the other hand, I could not imagine going without shoes for my Tb, her feet are so soft and brittle and she is just so delicate, and prone to cracks that shoes seem to protect her.
 
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Pale Rider said:
Now my horses are ready and I am off me riding one shod , groom riding one BF leading one boots in front what I am doing is following all the trends at once can't go wrong there. !

Hold on Goldenstar, 'now my horses are ready'
'Groom'

What's all that about, lol.
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Ok I admitt it I am an overpriledged hysterical lifestyle rider.
 
Herpesas said:
I'll be brave and answer your question :D

Hooves weren't designed to have things hammered through them and it is inevitable that this will have an effect on the natural strength that the hoof has. In an ideal world where all horses had great, strong feet that could cope with the rigours of modern riding, I would expect all to be unshod/barefoot. Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal world, all horses don't have great feet (or even good feet) that can cope with what we expect of them.

In my case, my well shod horse has healthier feet than he would have if he was barefoot. Does he have healthier feet than a barefoot horse with good, strong feet? No.

To go successfully barefoot, my horse would have to be restricted to turnout only in dry ground conditions and he would be miserable. So would I rather have a healthy, happy horse with slightly compromised feet? Ab-so-lutely!
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I think that's great. There are plenty of well shod horses out there. Happy as Larry.

I think horses have not changed since the day they were tamed and feet designed to roam endlessly on varied terrain and gut designed to eat little and often haven't either which is why I personally think they can cope with modern riding rigours.

The fact is, there are so many varied breeds and minute adaptations between breeds and factor in management variations etc. that not one solution fits all.

What we do need is well shod and well trimmed healthy horses with the best diet that can be afforded them and I am not talking endless supplements and expensive feeds, I am talking simple basic nutritious stuff. All this can help support sound horses. As long as we have a divided foot care profession that do not do joined up thinking, we will continue to get horses with issues that tend to manifest in the foot. The more owners do to educate themselves on the whys and wherefore's of laminitis, navicular syndrome and other foot pathologies, the less we will see.

Still, unless you experience it yourself, one is unlikely to go in deeper than necessary.

I am coming to the conclusion that actually, it does matter if you keep horses shod or unshod because ultimately, you are responsible for how they cope with your decision. We are all in the same boat. The decision you make matters greatly, not to forumites, but to the horse.

Most people are affording each other experience and helpful guidance whether shod or unshod and in a world where change happens whether you like it or not, and that is so valuable.

If you look past the bickering, I think everyone will see that they all have one thing in common.
 
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Just to add a slightly different angle to the debate - I (and I'm sure I'm far from the only one) have a barefoot/ shoeless/ whatever horse who is currently out 24/7 with no problems. We had a slight problem in May when the horses moved into a recently fertilized field, but all I had to do was pop her in the diet paddock for a week until the grass had been eaten down a bit. Poor lass is out of work atm, but that is for something else entirely.
 
HashRouge said:
Just to add a slightly different angle to the debate - I (and I'm sure I'm far from the only one) have a barefoot/ shoeless/ whatever horse who is currently out 24/7 with no problems. We had a slight problem in May when the horses moved into a recently fertilized field, but all I had to do was pop her in the diet paddock for a week until the grass had been eaten down a bit. Poor lass is out of work atm, but that is for something else entirely.
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Which harks back to my posts on grass management. You never see Dartmoor ponies with cracked feet. They run around on old grass across all terrain and have feet like iron. Having said that if a horse is happiest shod, then shoe it. Also if management to keep it happy barefoot would be impractical shoe. I am however coming round to the opinion that BF should be the default option with shoes having to be justified rather than the other way round. No I am not didactic either way. One shod and one unshod wearing boots prn.
 
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Clava said:
Why? what happens if not dry, or wet with shoes?
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Soft does not even get close to describing his feet in wet conditions - as I said in my previous post, they're like Brie! Without shoes, he shreds his feet within hours, they end up bare and he ends up very sore.

Last month he lost a front shoe whilst I was riding (tripped and, as he recovered, he over reached and pulled it clean off), I didn't have a hoofboot that fit him so I went for a 2 hour road trip round the local saddlers trying to find one. Eventually I managed to borrow one but by the time I got back he had already trashed the foot. This happens in the field and in his stable (he weaves).

He is also prone to abcesses from grit getting pushed up into the sole and hoof wall.

As I said in my previous post, he is already on a diet low in sugar and starch and high in fibre with vitamins, minerals and additional magnesium. He is not a very good doer, so I don't want to reduce his grass intake. He is fed as much hay as he will eat.

My farrier is also a barefoot trimmer and would not recommend shoes if he did not think they were necessary. He says, with time off (which isn't an option for Hoss cos of his shoulder injury), his back feet could probably cope barefoot but he has strongly advised not to remove his fronts. He did suggest another horse at the yard (not mine) may benefit from going barefoot as he has had small changes in his foot and is currently intermittently lame in wedges and pads.
 
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That is a really interesting case. Poor thing. I wonder what makes his horn so weak. You do hear of cases sometimes that make you wonder and be grateful for shoes.
 
He is definitely one of them! :o My poor farrier dispairs of him some days! When it's dry he's got quite strong feet but he is very hard on them and they do seem to be particularly susceptible to the wet! This year with all the rain it's been particularly difficult to manage - I've even resorted to hoof oil which I wouldn't normally put anywhere near him. Other, drier years I haven't had any problems with him (doesn't pull shoes, isn't 'footy' at all) but I still wouldn't risk taking his front shoes off.
 
Herpesas said:
Soft does not even get close to describing his feet in wet conditions - as I said in my previous post, they're like Brie! Without shoes, he shreds his feet within hours, they end up bare and he ends up very sore.

Last month he lost a front shoe whilst I was riding (tripped and, as he recovered, he over reached and pulled it clean off), I didn't have a hoofboot that fit him so I went for a 2 hour road trip round the local saddlers trying to find one. Eventually I managed to borrow one but by the time I got back he had already trashed the foot. This happens in the field and in his stable (he weaves).

He is also prone to abcesses from grit getting pushed up into the sole and hoof wall.

As I said in my previous post, he is already on a diet low in sugar and starch and high in fibre with vitamins, minerals and additional magnesium. He is not a very good doer, so I don't want to reduce his grass intake. He is fed as much hay as he will eat.

My farrier is also a barefoot trimmer and would not recommend shoes if he did not think they were necessary. He says, with time off (which isn't an option for Hoss cos of his shoulder injury), his back feet could probably cope barefoot but he has strongly advised not to remove his fronts. He did suggest another horse at the yard (not mine) may benefit from going barefoot as he has had small changes in his foot and is currently intermittently lame in wedges and pads.
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that's interesting, what I'm trying to understand is why a shoe or how a shoe prevents the sole turning to brie (I'm not trying to be difficult, I really just want to understand the effects of shoes), just raising the sole off the ground doesn't sound like it would be enough as the sole would still be in the mud. I do think that many shod horses would trash a bare hoof if they hacked 2 hrs to a saddlers to get a boot without gradually building up to that.
 
Herpesas said:
In an ideal world where all horses had great, strong feet that could cope with the rigours of modern riding, I would expect all to be unshod/barefoot. Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal world, all horses don't have great feet (or even good feet) that can cope with what we expect of them.
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But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect!

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?
 
BeesKnees said:
But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect!

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?
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There's all sorts of issues. That could be one of them. There's two barefooted retired laydeez at my yard who have excellent feet. Apart from wandering around 10acres a day, they do nothing but chill out. Both can walk on the farms long tracks without batting an eyelid. They are on a very special diet of grass, nettles, dandelion, twigs, thistle and spring water :D

However, I havent saddled either of them up and gone for an hours hack so I don't know if the feet will still stand up to Tarmac. No reason not to obviously but after years of adapting to their ground, chances are they may not. Not daily anyway.

Anyway, my point is, I don't know if it is to do with not enough work or if it is to do with adaptation.
 
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BeesKnees said:
But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect!

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?
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Same as humans really :D
 
Clava said:
that's interesting, what I'm trying to understand is why a shoe or how a shoe prevents the sole turning to brie (I'm not trying to be difficult, I really just want to understand the effects of shoes), just raising the sole off the ground doesn't sound like it would be enough as the sole would still be in the mud. I do think that many shod horses would trash a bare hoof if they hacked 2 hrs to a saddlers to get a boot without gradually building up to that.
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It doesn't, his feet are still soft but the shoe is protecting him from wearing his feet down to the point wear he is in pain and discomfort.

I didn't hack to the saddlers :eek:, I drove there in my car while he stood in the field chomping away merrily and trashing his foot.
 
BeesKnees said:
But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect!

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?
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I can only speak from my experience. In this case, the horse is fed well as he is not a good doer but he is always fed in line with his workload cos, if he isn't, he's an idiot. The rigours of standing in his stable or field swaying gently from side to side or mooching around is enough to wear his feet down til he's uncomfortable, if I added actually work to that I think he'd have nubs instead of legs! :D
 
cptrayes said:
There are tons. We even had someone whose sister is a paid trimmer whose own horse has been long term lame. You are only seeing the stuff you want to see.
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Only accounts I can see are not on this forum.

I just feel its unfair for barefooters to farrier bash and then say how wonderful trimmers are.


My experience is of farriers who turn up in all weather, get battered by unruly horses and still come out at 8pm or on New Years Day to replace lost shoes, or check for no payment a horse that is showing signs of laminitis or severe thrush, often for horses that aren't even their clients.

How many of us have asked a farrier on the yard to take a look at a lame horse. Would a visiting vet examine your horse for nothing ?

Barefooters accuse them of shoeing horses because they can make more money that way. That's grossly unfair to the genuine farriers out there. Perhaps if they start charging £60 for a trim they won't be accused of bad practice.

There is no shod/unshod divide, many of us owners do both.

Those who say all shoes are bad, or any horse can go barefoot if their owners can be bothered enough are the ones who cause a divide.
 
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