thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

merlinsquest said:
I usually don't post on these threads, but in answer to the above we went show jumping on grass today, having watched various horses slipping on the turns I am so glad that I had shoes on & studs all round, so you are wrong as my horse NEEDS shoes so that I can put studs in so we don't slip over when we are competing. I expect to get jumped on now that studs are unnecessary, unshod horses don't slip etc etc, well they were today & I don't fancy a broken pelvis or a lame horse thanks. My exercise regime & diet are fine BTW
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That's an opinion not a fact .
 
merlinsquest said:
I usually don't post on these threads, but in answer to the above we went show jumping on grass today, having watched various horses slipping on the turns I am so glad that I had shoes on & studs all round, so you are wrong as my horse NEEDS shoes so that I can put studs in so we don't slip over when we are competing. I expect to get jumped on now that studs are unnecessary, unshod horses don't slip etc etc, well they were today & I don't fancy a broken pelvis or a lame horse thanks. My exercise regime & diet are fine BTW
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My five horses that I did affiliated eventing on did not need shoes.

What they needed was for me to ride them nicely balanced and at a speed that was within their capabilities to grip and balance with no shoes on.

My barefoot hunter does not need studs and no hunter, shod or not, has studs. The argument to stud does not wash with me.

ALL horses slip from time to time. There is a PhD which was done by a Farrier who has come to the conclusion that slipping has a purpose, which is to limit strain on the joints. That farrier now says that the use of studs should be questioned as potentially damaging, and perhaps shoes as well.

If you felt you needed studs, then obviously you needed shoes, and there is no problem with that from my point of view. But there are other choices. Not shoe jumping on grass would be one issue, affiliated dressage riders stopped competing on grass some time ago. Accepting a lower place due to a marginally slower jump-off or cross country time is another, and that is my personal lifestyle choice rather than 24/7 shoes.
 
Is there not a farrier who comes on this forum who disagrees with studs because of the jarring effect they have on joints? I could be wrong, but I feel that I've read it somewhere on here or maybe another forum? Perhaps someone else might remember.
 
merlinsquest said:
No Goldenstar its a fact that horses were slipping today that were either unshod or shod without studs, mine did not slip because she had 8 studs in, therefore its pretty clear that she needs shoes in order to put studs in meaning we don't slip over & get injured.
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Not at all.

One other option would have been to slow down, turn wider and keep your horse in natural balance without needing to dig an edge of metal in as if it was a ski doing a parallel turn.

A second would have been to increase your horse's training to a level where it could weight its hind end like a dressage horse in piaffe, and spin in balance. If it has sufficient talent to learn to do that.

The speed and sharpness of the turn were your choice, as were the studs. I don't have any problem with that, provided that you understand the level of strain that you put on your horse's front joints if her feet were nailed to the floor on landing by studs in front shoes and make your choice in that full awareness.
 
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Holly Hocks said:
Is there not a farrier who comes on this forum who disagrees with studs because of the jarring effect they have on joints? I could be wrong, but I feel that I've read it somewhere on here or maybe another forum? Perhaps someone else might remember.
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Moorman thinks studs should be banned.
 
Your post says it all they where all slipping.
I never studded my eventers until advanced until that sort of hieght I never felt the need .
But my horses do most of there jumping on a prepared grass area so they are extremely good at balancing them selves.
Its an opinion some people think BF horses are better on the roads TBH I can see no difference between my shod and unshod ones on the roads I have slipped up and come down XC on a shod/studded horse in the past.
Unless the jumps are huge and yes for three days event I did stud but frankly I worried constantly about their legs and my own I have a cracking scar on my leg from a stud where the horse stood on me getting up after a fall .
IBH it's my opinion that unless you are at the higher levels the risk outweighs the benefit of studs horses hunt in all sorts of conditions without studs.
Shoes no shoes up to a 1.10 which is all I do now adays I would allow my self to be guided by the horse.
 
cptrayes said:
Not at all.

One other option would have been to slow down, turn wider and keep your horse in natural balance without needing to dig an edge of metal in as if it was a ski doing a parallel turn.

A second would have been to increase your horse's training to a level where it could weight its hind end like a dressage horse in piaffe, and spin in balance. If it has sufficient talent to learn to do that.

The speed and sharpness of the turn were your choice, as were the studs. I don't have any problem with that, provided that you understand the level of strain that you put on your horse's front joints if her feet were nailed to the floor on landing by studs in front shoes and make your choice in that full awareness.
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We should clearly agree to disagree, next time I am having a lesson I will point out that to win a jump off at grand prix level my coach should be slowing down & turning wider rather than keeping an even level canter, covering more ground & turning up tighter My horse does take plenty of weight back, decent show jumpers have to to stay engaged & be able to jump & turn. I didn't turn particularly tightly today as it was slippy & would always put the smallest studs in that I think are suitable. It is clearly a very personal choice, but for me I would feel unconfident jumping on grass without studs.
 
I think if you want to be particularly competitive on grass regardless of the conditions then you probably do need shoes and studs. Its a choice though and imagine some are more competitive than others who might just enjoy the occasion and a good round.
 
Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss.
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.
 
I would certainly be uncomfortable using a muzzle and always have been, I would prefer to try anything but. As we are able to ours are out on a track-system, this is mostly because due to enforced restricted exercise we need to restrict grazing and they have been able to have more space this way. The one who is on restricted exercise is rounder than ideal but I feel for us it is the best compromise that we can manage currently.
 
SusieT said:
Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss.
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.
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Not sure what mental frustration you think I inflict on my BF horses who have a lovely life exactly the same life as my shod horses they come in out of the flys which they love but I have made no management changes apart from swopping to oats and changing the chaff I use which I have done for all the horses.
I personally will never use a muzzle my only attempts at this lead to a severely distressed horse so they are a big no no to me no good being out with a friend if you can't interact with him mine hated not being able to groom his friend.
I don't do herd turn out I used to but the injuries where to frequent and IMO big herds of fit sport horses and TB's is too dangerous it was a broken leg that stopped me in the end turning horses out together . I now turn out in twos and three or alone with a view of friends.
The slipping thing is a funny one I honestly think there is no difference based on the fact I ride shod and unshod horses daily.
I always wonder about the shod horse slipping on the road thing when I read it its simply not my experiance.
 
I think there are different road surfaces in different areas/locations. I have ridden shod on some slippery roads and on other roads the horses never slipped once. I think long lush wet grass can be slippery for unshod horses. On balance on the slippery roads the unshod ones of mine were better than the shod ones.

I have never really made any amendments to diet for my unshod or shod horses. All have been ok with daily turnout, daily ridden exercise and feedwise nothing special. Just a regular feed for the work they were doing. The warmblood I took shoes off wasn't footy for more than a few days then he was fine. I have probably just been lucky with the horses I have bought, though feet and soundness are a big consideration when buying for me.
 
Shod horses on tarmac are a nightmare, and to be safe even in walk you need road nails. Others may have a different opinion, but that is erroneous, whether they mean to be or not.
Barefoot horses are a lot safer on tarmac a slip very little, in all gaits.
A lot has been said about competition and the need for studded shoes in certain conditions. Of course the right and proper thing to do would be not to compete in theses conditions. This however, is too big an ask for the majority, better to use artificial means like shoes and studs to ensure that the show goes on.
My personal view is to withdraw from competitions where the ground required shoes and studs.
 
I rode, PR, in every conceivable type of ground conditions. Henbury was so wet people were coming off the cross country complaining they were slipping. Of course I didn't make the time, who cares, but we had a wonderful, safe, clear round. It can be done, at least to Novice, you just have to slow down on the corners and have your horse well balanced through the combinations.

I live in a hilly area and my horses are definitely not slippy at all on the roads and were sometimes frightening in shoes.
 
merlinsquest said:
We should clearly agree to disagree, next time I am having a lesson I will point out that to win a jump off at grand prix level my coach should be slowing down & turning wider rather than keeping an even level canter, covering more ground & turning up tighter .
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But that's exactly the point I am making. You are using studs to get a higher place, not because you cannot jump without them. It's your choice.
 
I think it's fair to say that some horses are happier barefoot and some shod. When I got hairy hoss she was barefoot, and i was happy to see how she went as she had neverbeen shod, but she was clearly uncomfortable on stony ground and so I got fronts put on. She's much better now and has stopped refusing to move forwards on the uneven ground to her stable.

But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given.

Paula
 
SusieT said:
Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss.
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.
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What mental frustration are we imposing on our horses SusieT?

I too had a pony who I would have had to muzzle this year. He didn't hate it at all, but I did. He used to willingly come to me for it to be put on when he was loose in the field. I would still have had to muzzle him in shoes. I didn't think I was giving him a good life, so instead, I found him a better home than I could give him and cried as I handed him over.

Your assumption that we all deprive our horses of company and free movement is incredibly insulting. I defy you to find a better management method than I am lucky enough to be able to give mine.

If you are condemning track systems then I think you need to do some more horse-watching. If you give horses a big enough field, they make their own tracks in it, with a set of "bedrooms" of bare scooped out earth, and they can be found in the same places at the same times on most days. Track systems may be linear but they do not prevent natural free movement

If you are condemning strip grazing, no-one strip grazes so they can be barefoot. They strip graze to prevent laminitis and weight issues. It's a pain in the neck and I take my hat off to anyone who can be bothered to do it.


I live on a hilll with a 25% gradient. It is a rare ride when a shod horse does not slip at all on that hill and a rare ride when a barefoot one does.


ps. Still waiting for that apology for your accusation that I was looking to put down my wobbler for my own sake and not his, by the way.
 
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Paulag said:
But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given.

Paula
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You're possibly right, but I've got a horse on Pro Hoof which costs quite a lot and horse's feet are great - I'm scared of stopping giving it to her in case her feet get worse! I've been well and truly sucked in to the world of supplements!
 
Paulag said:
I think it's fair to say that some horses are happier barefoot and some shod. When I got hairy hoss she was barefoot, and i was happy to see how she went as she had neverbeen shod, but she was clearly uncomfortable on stony ground and so I got fronts put on. She's much better now and has stopped refusing to move forwards on the uneven ground to her stable.

But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given.

Paula
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Priceless :D!

You stick shoes on your horse before even trying whether any of the claptrap actually works.

More fool you.

Are you aware that spring grass is normally deficient in magnesium?

Are you aware that human type II diabetes sufferers are being treated with magnesium oxide?

Are you aware that yeast is scientfically proven to reduce inflammation in the gut two ways?

Are you aware that a high proportion of forage analyses are coming back high in manganese and iron and/or low in copper, and that combination will cause laminitic issues in many horses?

Do you even know how much sugar is added to the food you give your horse?

Etc Etc.

Do you care? No. OK, you just continue to congratulate yourself for resolving your mare's sore feet by shoeing when her previous owner had no need to.
 
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Cptrayes So I see that you've quoted the meta analysis of randomised controlled trials that proved scientific significance for the statements that you've made here. Oh no, wait a minute, you haven't - why bother you have all your lovely proof by vigorous assertion to rely on. You might be ae to bully other people with your aggressiveness, but I'm used to uneducated twerps in my day job.

And no magnesium oxide is not used to treat type 2 diabetes you silly person. I'd be struck off if I claimed that.

I didnt critisise barefooters, I would expect serious criticism if I left my mare with sore feet for the sake of thirty quid.

I doubt there's a great deal of sugar in the feed my horse gets - you are aware that grass and hay is digested down to sugar aren't you? In metabolic syndrome the carbohydrate load is of more relevance than the glycemic index.

Also high supplements of some minerals block the absorption of others and can be toxic. I specifically said that they are useful where fees is deficient. We get an analysis and a supplement to match deficiencies in the forage on the farm.

Don't be so damn aggressive if you don't want to look an idiot. Forums are about adult conversations, not bullying other owners.

Paula
 
Paulag said:
But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given.

Paula
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so when you've analysed and know the deficiency.. what then? claptrap?

fwiw I do think that is the fluffiest/wooliest bit of it but am happy to currently accept the trial and error of others atm as its the best I think we have.

eta I thought it was well known that most of the carbs acquired are likely to come from grass and hay given they eat lots of it.

I wish there was a lot more solid scientific evidence than there is, unfortunately there isn't so its a choice I have to make or not.
 
SusieT said:
Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss.
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.
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Right..............8 years ago I rescued a lovely 14.1hh Sec D from a 13 acre field ( shared with one other pony ) He had lamintis :( I managed to get him home ( 60 miles away ) Get a vet out, who was amazed he was alive. I had him weighed.............he was 730 KILOS!!!!!!!
He could not be ridden for months, so after being stabled for 8 weeks he began to go out on a track, which went round a half acre paddock with lots of trees/hedges/nettles plus a lttle grass MUZZLED!

He did not in the least find it fustrating, it probably saved his life. It took me another 5 years to get him down to 420 kilos.

My ponies have a lovely life thanks, they are literally out my back door, have 5 acres to run around in the winter, only stabled during hot weather to get out of the flies.

I would much rather see a horse with a muzzle on and out than inside 24/7 because he has laminitis
 
I don't understand how anyone can say that shod horses don't slip on the road. Yes there are road surfaces that are OK but there is a type of very smooth road which when combined with a hill is really quite scary.

Where I grew up in Devon there were some hills that we routinely got off to walk down, even the riding stables did so.

Some of you who have seen my previous posts may know I took shoes off as a last ditch attempt to save my horse so I don't actually have a choice with this horse. There are inconveniences to keep him happy and sound and alot of people would think it more trouble than it's worth but one of the biggest pluses for me was that fact that not only does he not slip on the roads but instead of creeping downhill carefully he strides out and would trot if allowed and even keeps his grip on metal manhole covers.
 
cptrayes said:
I live in a hilly area and my horses are definitely not slippy at all on the roads and were sometimes frightening in shoes.
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This is my experience too. Just this morning I was out with three other horses (all shod). Mine was bare behind and booted in front. We strode off down the steepest hill confidently while they picked their way behind us, sliding about and at one point worrying the rider that one was going to end up on its knees. In warm weather its even worse, the back legs of the shod horses slip practically every five strides. One horse (not with us today) has road studs and these do help but I worry about the long-term effects.

Maybe it is different road surfaces, or could it be the hilly terrain? Either way, I'm not eager to go back to the ice rink experience now I know how different it can be.
 
'Of course I didn't make the time, who cares, but we had a wonderful, safe, clear round.'
'My personal view is to withdraw from competitions where the ground required shoes and studs. '
similar thread developing with several saying basically you have to make competitive sacrifices to be barefoot at any serious sort of level (making the time being quite often crucial eventing/showjumping-not so much dressage..). And yet still often claiming advanced event horses should also be competing barefoot-contradiction much?

'I don't understand how anyone can say that shod horses don't slip on the road.' I will say I have never ever had a shod horse slip on the road in my personal experience hence why I say that, but have ridden several unshod horses who stumbled and or sought out the verge when hacking on roads with the odd stone or down associated gravel tracks. Including horses who worked on those tracks day in day out, didn't eat grass and should have been 'hardy native types'.


'CPt as usual you are making sweeping assumptions about what I condemn. small areas of turnout-areas of very restricted life being kept all its life on an artifical surface (many amateur owners) with no opportuniuty to have a proper exercise if they desire. 'yarding' horses as a permanent strategy.. you'll be waiting a long time for any apology regarding your attitude to the wobbler-I stand by what I said at the time based on the information available and attitude presented. Perhaps you could stop derailing threads with that?

Paulag-yes, your horse was uncomfortable unshod, you put shoes on, now it is comfortable and sound-why anyone would have issue with you doing that is beyond me...

Angie and ben-your pony may not mind being muzzled, any that I have ever felt like trying the muzzle on for weight loss have hated it, thats three in total. Trying to rub it off, refusing to be caught when it was seen etc. etc. Yes, it has a place but not I feel to allow shoes to be removed. Strip grazing is far more effective as a weight loss programme for me. In my experience as I say, I find that the mental frustration of having a muzzle on is unacceptable to me.
 
Paulag said:
Cptrayes So I see that you've quoted the meta analysis of randomised controlled trials that proved scientific significance for the statements that you've made here. Oh no, wait a minute, you haven't - why bother you have all your lovely proof by vigorous assertion to rely on. You might be ae to bully other people with your aggressiveness, but I'm used to uneducated twerps in my day job.

And no magnesium oxide is not used to treat type 2 diabetes you silly person. I'd be struck off if I claimed that.

I didnt critisise barefooters, I would expect serious criticism if I left my mare with sore feet for the sake of thirty quid.

I doubt there's a great deal of sugar in the feed my horse gets - you are aware that grass and hay is digested down to sugar aren't you? In metabolic syndrome the carbohydrate load is of more relevance than the glycemic index.

Also high supplements of some minerals block the absorption of others and can be toxic. I specifically said that they are useful where fees is deficient. We get an analysis and a supplement to match deficiencies in the forage on the farm.

Don't be so damn aggressive if you don't want to look an idiot. Forums are about adult conversations, not bullying other owners.

Paula
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Actually, magnesium is being supplemented in pts with type 2 diabetes. I work with diabetologists and have been in diabetes for 4 years. Below is what I could find in a quick search but the main one is the Brazilian one.

http://www.bmj.sk/2008/10907-04.pdf

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/1/134.full

You may not be prescribing it, but the relationship is very well known and is encouraged as part of a healthy diet. Foods high in magnesium are encouraged by nurses in clinics. I used to helped run them.
 
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