thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

Anglebracket said:
Thank you for clarifying. Did they conduct MRI scanning on any of the horses? If yes, it might still be worth publishing the work. If not, how was success measured? Did they perform diagnostic tests before and after treatment? Again, these results might still be worth publishing.
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cptrayes will know more about this than me, but the argument is that if you have a sound horse, why would you shell out the cost of an MRI? Most lameness is assessed subjectively, for instance 3/10 lame, so why do you need objective assessment in this specific case?
 
horserider said:
LOL ! Who says they offend me ? Rather akin to a fly landing on my arm. A small irritation.
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So why wade in I don't see anyone being bullied .
I think I can remember who said I was hysterical putting ideology before my horse making a desision based on wanting to be trendy and to embrace a lifestlye chioice and and being a bully for good measure but it's all ok because you don't know me and therefore it does not count .
Bullying mmm
 
Ive got an arab who hasnt ever had shoes on since the day she was born - shes got tough little feet - we are only happy hackers so the amount of road work we do seems to keep them worn down at just the right amount ...

My TB has big fat dinner plates for feet ... he did have them on when raced but since he came to us he's been barefoot ... his feet were quite bad with cracks and the farrier advised no shoes as it'd do more harm than good ...

He regularly gets his trimmed to keep on top of the cracks until they grow out - if/when the farrier says he needs them he can but again, only happy hackers so dont really do enough road work :D
 
quirky said:
ETS
Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.
Where on earth has the bullying card come from? I can't see the word until you have used it here.
I rest my case about being inflammatory :(
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It was used prior to Tallyho's reference (emphasis below), hence he/she said it was a "serious term to use". You're right that it's an inflammatory one.

horserider said:
Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm than good. Some people give good advice, while others just look down on owners who choose to shoe or rant about farriers.
It's this attitude that I find bullying.
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Goldenstar said:
So why wade in I don't see anyone being bullied .
I think I can remember who said I was hysterical putting ideology before my horse making a desision based on wanting to be trendy and to embrace a lifestlye chioice and and being a bully for good measure but it's all ok because you don't know me and therefore it does not count .
Bullying mmm
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Go back and read the post. I wrote in generic terms.
 
quirky said:
tallyho!
ETS
Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.
Where on earth has the bullying card come from? I can't see the word until you have used it here.
I rest my case about being inflammatory :(
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Horserider is the poster who said that. Page 21, post no. 206

Not me so please don't quote me as writing that or accuse me of being inflammatory. Thanks.
 
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quirky said:
Apologies, the post was pointed out by pookie :)

Inflammatory, that still stands, you are ;)
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By what measure? Please point it out to me so I know not to be in future. Also, would you mind comparing it to your inflammatory post so I can see the difference?
 
horserider said:
Definition of generic
adjective
1characteristic of or relating to a class or group of things; not specific:
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So that aimed at a group of people and there fore individuals within that group have ever right to feel those comments are aimed at them ,as you say people you don't know ,very very rude.
And adds nothing to the debate.
 
soloequestrian said:
cptrayes will know more about this than me, but the argument is that if you have a sound horse, why would you shell out the cost of an MRI? Most lameness is assessed subjectively, for instance 3/10 lame, so why do you need objective assessment in this specific case?
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In answer to the question above, in my own personal case my horse has been left a bit traumatised since he underwent the 2 MRI's to diagnose his injury.

The plan was always to re-MRI but as it stands i cannot put him through it as we have now got him to a place where we can pick his feet up again. I have no idea what happend during the MRI's but i was told he had been very problamatic. I understand the equipment costs a fortune & why they may of been rough treatment. But it has left him with an issue over picking his hooves up, this was never an issue until the MRI's.

I do think the minute BF is mentioned tempers raise & i cannot understand why peopl on both sides seem to turn into hoof experts with HUGE opinions. BF has worked very well for me & my vet alone is astounded that not only my horse is sound he is competing.
My vet personally saw the struggle i had with the remedial shoeing, i cant say he backed my BF idea but he certainly doesnt question it for one second now & has ive heard taken his own daughters pony BF after a legnthy problem.

If you had of treated a horse with a hoof injury with shoes, would you be so quick to ask for documentation to back it up?

Why shouldnt BF work?

Have i got an issue with someone treating a similar injury with shoes NO, it's upto them & the advice & route they have chosen. Nothing to do with me i only know my own case.

Honestly im bowing out now as im not into Bun fights, i prefer to eat them lol. Well not buns i cant stick them.:p
Can we not calm this thread down though it's a bit rediculous horse lovers arguing over shod - un-shod, as long as we do what is best for our own animals thats what matters. It is interesting to hear others opinions & lastest research/thinking but honestly calm it down.
 
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mystiandsunny said:
I wonder if it's people coming at this from a different viewpoint. Most ponies I knew as a child weren't shod. The farrier trimmed them as needed and their hooves were rock hard - on a diet of pretty much just grass. There weren't all these sweet mollassed feeds, alfalfa chop and that sort of thing around then. They were worked harder than most ponies I see today, lived out, and were happy and healthy.

From that standpoint, I've shod what needed it, and not what didn't. Diets all round are the same. Mostly just grass, with a handful of beet with supps. Works from the TB to the Native ponies. I have one that's shod all round, one shod in front, the rest not shod (and the TB's one of those - her hooves are good enough, so why not?). No fancy supps, no agonising over what minerals they do/don't have, any of that. They live out, are ridden 6 days a week, go hacking without issues, etc. I don't get the hype tbh. The old way was to put shoes on if the horse/pony needed them. It doesn't make financial sense to shoe something that doesn't need to be shod, let alone any other consideration!
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Exactly!!!

I do think that those of us with plenty of years of experience gained before professional marketing became so influential can't understand why simple feeding and not using shoes unless the horse/pony needs them is such a revelation to some people.
I cannot understand either why any-one would be prepared to pay more to a 'barefoot trimmer' than to a well-qualified farrier to look after their horse's feet.
But then I can't understand why some people continue to employ the farriers who leave their horses' hooves in the messes I can often see local to me and apparently can't see the problems. Although I do know that for some of them cost is a factor. I could become evangelical myself about the fact that paying a good farrier a few pounds more works out cheaper than having to get the vet out after prolonged poor farriery.
Just for the record, when I bought my Draft horse, just over 18 months ago, I was told that the farrier said she wouldn't cope without shoes. She was vastly overweight and being fed a proprietary brand coarse mix. We took off her back shoes to introduce her to our herd and changed her onto our usual high fibre/low sugar feed. She worked with just fronts until recently when we took those off as well. The farrier thinks she will be fine but of course we have the option to call him back to replace the shoes if we feel she needs them. So far she doesn't. Of the others one is unshod and the other is shod all round.
None of this is rocket science imo but sheer common-sense and good horsemanship.
IMO far too many people buy horses without knowing enough about how they should be kept to keep them healthy and happy and without some-one with enough experience to help them - as demonstrated by many posts on this forum. Just because you can afford to buy a horse doesn't mean you should.
 
tallyho! said:
By what measure? Please point it out to me so I know not to be in future. Also, would you mind comparing it to your inflammatory post so I can see the difference?
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Here you go :D
I have bold the relevant parts for you:)


quirky said:
This twaddle is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to make us think they walk a higher ground than the rest of us shod horse owners ;)

Snip * Anecdotal evidence of unshod horses *
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tallyho! said:
You could say that you are setting yourself apart from the many that don't find it as easy as you do. Aren't you the one being evangelical about the management of your horses? Yet see that it's ok to belittle others whilst at the same time lording it over everyone about how wonderful things are for you? Not just you but the unshod mafia that see fit to bash barefooters. Saying things like we walk a higher ground. Christ what set of glasses do you wear to see people in this way? Chip on shoulder much?

Well excuse me for not being around 40 years ago to witness amazing marvels of unshod horse keeping. What a shame I have to watch my horse struggle in shoes for years while my experts tell me this needs doing and he needs these drugs and I need to pay £6000 so he can live. All I needed to do was be around back in the day when unshod was what people did. It's such a shame I did not know you quirky. Could have saved myself a fortune!

What a fool i must be.
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tallyho! said:
No thanks to the moaners like you but more thanks to the people who bothered to reply to my posts about my barefoot transition. The barefooters helped me. Those who were against it, just ridiculed me. Just like you are doing now, further segregating yourself form any meaningful input that offers any kind of help because you don't want to be seen to be part of barefoot. It sounds like you have plenty of knowledge but rather than offer some, you would rather ridicule me for having a barefoot horse because you believe we are all idiots who serve to make other people feel stupid for shoeing.

I do care though because I don't like to see helpful people being called names just for believing in something.
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tallyho! said:
Well then I can call you rude too for your original post as you were insinuating all barefooters are full of twaddle as you call it.

Yes, I take umbrage. I don't see the difference between you calling the barefooters names and saying all the barefooters do is serve to make shod people feel small.

THAT is twaddle in my eyes. If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.

Sorry if my taking offence makes you laugh but I don't see why you should take the mickey out people who struggle to get it right for their horse. That was me at one point. We all have to learn.
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tallyho! said:
Sorry Rhino and quirky, I didn't know I was arguing about agreeing with me!

I thought I was being defensive? As its a forum, I am allowed aren't I? Rhino should know, she knows about all that kind of stuff.

You can post what you like according to me but when you offend me, I can post back and say why.
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tallyho! said:
Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it...

I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok? I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post :eek::rolleyes::D;):mad::p:cool::):confused::o etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses.

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional :)
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tallyho! said:
quirky, let me tell you. Many of my friends have well shod ridden, competing horses. Many of my friends have well trimmed ridden, competing horses and ponies.

I do not do a "down doer" on them. I manage my horses how I want to, they do it their way and we learn from each other. Please come to see me and tell me to my face I "down do" you. The horses I ride for people come shod or unshod, and as long as sound and performing I'm a happy rider.

Why you have to pick a fight with barefooters I will never know.

Yes I posted that because you feel the need to come on a fairly level discussion and berate barefooters. Why shouldn't I ask you why you bother posting if you just want to be nasty? In my opinion, thats what it sounds like when you post. You haven't got a nice word to say and that is why I come across as rude towards you because I don't like the way you accuse barefooters of doing imaginary things.

Sorry to be rude to you, I can't stand it when people "down do" barefooters who are just ordinary people who are on a learning curve.

p.s. I have never come across a barefooter who has done a "down doer" on anyone. Most, if not all, barefooters had a shod horse once and may use shoes again if necessary.
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Anyway, that is it.
As the old saying goes, you can't argue (for want of a better word) with .......... ;):D:D
 
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I can't read all these pages. But iv got 1 horse shod and 4 barefoot. The only reason my shod 1 is still shod is because she's getting ready for hunting and i haven't the time to set aside to get her going properly without shoes.
My tb has reverse rotated pedal bones and is unsound in shoes in everyway but the yard he came from didn't notice, it was " his way off going" barefoot now is his last resort and tbh iv seen great results so far but I am worried about the winter with his feet.
 
horserider said:
Good points.

Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
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If my lifestyle choice is to have a hunter and a dressage horse who I save £1600 a year on by not shoeing, who is the loser here, exactly :D ?
 
cptrayes said:
If my lifestyle choice is to have a hunter and a dressage horse who I save £1600 a year on by not shoeing, who is the loser here, exactly :D ?
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:eek: Are you down south? That'd equate to a set of new shoes (no refits) for each horse every 4 weeks where I am :eek:
 
I think everyone needs to have a group hug now...and send vibes to any footsore horses, and be happy for all the sound ones:)
 
horserider said:
Goldenstar Just to clarify, there is a difference between working one's horses unshod, (as mine are) and embracing the Barefoot lifestyle trend.
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No there isn't. The difference is between horses that are easy to do and horses that are not. There is no difference between a horse working barefoot and one working unshod. But some horses are much more difficult to achieve this with and that's where barefooters try and help instead of rushing for shoes.

Ironically, what the Taliban recommend which you are so hysterical about in earlier posts is actually the most natural lifestyle and feeding that you can give the horse. And as other people have pointed out, it was known about long ago and more recently forgotten.

horserider said:
Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm than good.
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I don't believe this is true. Those people who are determined to be upset by barefoot posts, like you, continue to be upset by them. No harm done there. Those who read them to try and understand how they can take the shoes off their horses tell us they are finding the posts interesting. Good result. Some horses lives have been saved. Brilliant result. Harm? None that I can see.


horserider said:
It is a lifestyle choice, just as Parelli is, as opposed to ordinary mortals who use similar approaches as one aspect of training.

Obsession is never healthy in horsecare, keeping an open mind so there is always more than one tool in the box is pretty useful.
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Oh you really have got it twisted, haven't you? Parelli has a number of competitors, all of which are matched by big marketing budgets and are trying to outsell each other.

Barefoot/shoeless has no alternative other than shoes and there is no marketing expenditure being put behind it at all. It results in lower revenues, not higher ones.

I don't get where you say we are not open-minded. I cannot recall the last time a barefooter posted and said all horse/owner combinations can go without shoes.

The only closed mind I can see here is yours.
 
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Do people remember the horror and harm that was the Strasser method of 'barefoot trimming'? This woman and her followers were evangelical about horses not wearing shoes and needing a particular 'trim', she caused huge amounts of suffering to a number of horses, she is still referred to on some of the 'barefoot' websites. The work done by the Australian chap on ferral horses in Australia, New Zealand and America is fascinating, showing an incidence of lamminitis in those animals far above what has always been believed to be the case. (I can't remember the mans name and have only seen abstracts of the study, but I believe others on here have seen the full thing). Unreasoned berating of others, whether for or against shoeing/barefoot, does little for either camp, or horses. My main objection to barefoot is the unregulated nature of it, with anyone able to call themselves a trimmer. Until there is protected title the disquiet will continue IMO
 
quirky said:
:eek: Are you down south? That'd equate to a set of new shoes (no refits) for each horse every 4 weeks where I am :eek:
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No I am in the North West. The farrier I last used now charges £80 a set and I had each horse done an average of once every 5 weeks because of the amount of difficult roadwork (severe hills) I do.
 
YorksG said:
Do people remember the horror and harm that was the Strasser method of 'barefoot trimming'? This woman and her followers were evangelical about horses not wearing shoes and needing a particular 'trim', she caused huge amounts of suffering to a number of horses, she is still referred to on some of the 'barefoot' websites. The work done by the Australian chap on ferral horses in Australia, New Zealand and America is fascinating, showing an incidence of lamminitis in those animals far above what has always been believed to be the case. (I can't remember the mans name and have only seen abstracts of the study, but I believe others on here have seen the full thing). Unreasoned berating of others, whether for or against shoeing/barefoot, does little for either camp, or horses. My main objection to barefoot is the unregulated nature of it, with anyone able to call themselves a trimmer. Until there is protected title the disquiet will continue IMO
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Strasser is a vet. Relevant only to people who think every word a vet says is indisputable gospel.

Strasser trimming is to all intents illegal in this country, based on two successful prosecutions.

There is no problem with any other trimmer training in the UK.

In the New Zealand study to which you refer, the cause of the laminitis was exactly as it is in domestic horses - a temporary availability of grass that was too rich. No surprise there then. "Wild" is not synonymous with "well cared for".


I share your concern with the lack of regulation and recently posted a thread proposing that no-one should be able to charge to trim without a licence. I would still like to see that happen, under the auspices of the Farriers Registration Council with proper training of non-shoeing trimmers. Training which is currently sadly lacking from the shoeing apprentices syllabus, and should in my opinion be corrected immediately.
 
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