thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

[cptrayes]

By Rhino
Again, the sarcasm really doesn't help. If people want to post on the topic, they can and will. Just because you didn't feel the post relevant doesn't mean the same for everyone. It's silly throwaway comments like this that make people feel that any views which don't mirror the BT aren't welcome on the forum, which leads to the 2 'camps' which seem to have been created. I thought you were someone who valued discussion?

Come on Rhino, be fair and put my post in context! It was a reply to someone who said:

I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel

....... some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone

Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved

I DO like a reasoned discussion, which is precisely why I made the post that I did and finished two other points with that particular sentence.

 

[TwoStroke]

Twostroke - absolutely The price of hoof boots doesn't bother me, the fact that I cant find any my horse is not allergic to (plastics/rubber) and faffing about with tubigrips under them doesn't work too well, does

Now you're talking my language. My flipping TB is allergic to everything under the sun *angryface*. Even orthopedic lambskin!

 

[rhino]

Oh dear - when the corporations take all our metal away to build colonies on alien infested worlds, you will really be in trouble!

Sorry, in a daft moodHope you find some that your horse isn't allergic to!

He's an absolute nightmare! I'm tempted to borrow the anglegrinder mentioned earlier and just chop his feet off, can't do any harm surely?

You could say that you are setting yourself apart from the many that don't find it as easy as you do. Aren't you the one being evangelical about the management of your horses? Yet see that it's ok to belittle others whilst at the same time lording it over everyone about how wonderful things are for you? Not just you but the unshod mafia that see fit to bash barefooters. Saying things like we walk a higher ground. Christ what set of glasses do you wear to see people in this way? Chip on shoulder much?

Well excuse me for not being around 40 years ago to witness amazing marvels of unshod horse keeping. What a shame I have to watch my horse struggle in shoes for years while my experts tell me this needs doing and he needs these drugs and I need to pay £6000 so he can live. All I needed to do was be around back in the day when unshod was what people did. It's such a shame I did not know you quirky. Could have saved myself a fortune!

What a fool i must be.


No thanks to the moaners like you but more thanks to the people who bothered to reply to my posts about my barefoot transition. The barefooters helped me. Those who were against it, just ridiculed me. Just like you are doing now, further segregating yourself form any meaningful input that offers any kind of help because you don't want to be seen to be part of barefoot. It sounds like you have plenty of knowledge but rather than offer some, you would rather ridicule me for having a barefoot horse because you believe we are all idiots who serve to make other people feel stupid for shoeing.

I do care though because I don't like to see helpful people being called names just for believing in something.

Well then I can call you rude too for your original post as you were insinuating all barefooters are full of twaddle as you call it.

Yes, I take umbrage. I don't see the difference between you calling the barefooters names and saying all the barefooters do is serve to make shod people feel small.

THAT is twaddle in my eyes. If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.

Sorry if my taking offence makes you laugh but I don't see why you should take the mickey out people who struggle to get it right for their horse. That was me at one point. We all have to learn.

Sorry Rhino and quirky, I didn't know I was arguing about agreeing with me!

I thought I was being defensive? As its a forum, I am allowed aren't I? Rhino should know, she knows about all that kind of stuff.

You can post what you like according to me but when you offend me, I can post back and say why.

Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it...

I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok? I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses.

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional

quirky, let me tell you. Many of my friends have well shod ridden, competing horses. Many of my friends have well trimmed ridden, competing horses and ponies.

I do not do a "down doer" on them. I manage my horses how I want to, they do it their way and we learn from each other. Please come to see me and tell me to my face I "down do" you. The horses I ride for people come shod or unshod, and as long as sound and performing I'm a happy rider.

Why you have to pick a fight with barefooters I will never know.

Yes I posted that because you feel the need to come on a fairly level discussion and berate barefooters. Why shouldn't I ask you why you bother posting if you just want to be nasty? In my opinion, thats what it sounds like when you post. You haven't got a nice word to say and that is why I come across as rude towards you because I don't like the way you accuse barefooters of doing imaginary things.

Sorry to be rude to you, I can't stand it when people "down do" barefooters who are just ordinary people who are on a learning curve.

p.s. I have never come across a barefooter who has done a "down doer" on anyone. Most, if not all, barefooters had a shod horse once and may use shoes again if necessary.

I fail to see how anything I've written on the thread can be compared to this?

 

[pookie]

What this topic needs is a bit of equality. There should be (is?) research into pros and cons of keeping horses unshod, and there should be (is?) research of similar breadth and depth into pros and cons of shoeing.

What irks me on both sides are the people who feel there is only ONE way all horses MUST be kept - if there's a Barefoot Taliban then*there's very much a Shoeing Mujahideen. Neither should be acceptable but neither really has much to do with whether people keep their horses shod or unshod...it's simply individual personality types.

'Barefoot' wasn't a 'thing' when I was growing up...but people sure a hell kept their horses unshod and kept them well

 

[cptrayes]

I'm a tad confused. As far as I'm aware I've never made personal remarks about anyone.
My comments are general observations directed at the excesses of the barefoot movement as opposed to having unshod horses trimmed by a farrier.

What excesses are you annoyed about?

I have a suspicion that the things you are annoyed about are, in turn, general observations about the excesses of unnecessary or even damaging shoeing; low sugar high fibre diets and a foot-friendly way of managing horses.

But if you point out some individual instances, in context, then maybe we will understand you better?

 

[tallyho!]

The trimming organisation have a full set of National Occupational Standards in place but no-one will step forward to police it because it will cost money. It cannot of course be done by any of the organisations themselves. They negotiated these NOS standards alongside the farriers. They have done their best. They are the good guys. They are providing training. It is not up to them to police people who are perfectly legally trimming with no training.

The thing to do is, if you want a trimmer, is to make sure you go to the UKNHCP or UKAEP. At least then the customer will know they are paying for someone who has had an approved level of training. (LANTRA)

 

[TwoStroke]

Shoeing Mujahideen

Muahahaha, that one's going on the wall .

 

[rhino]

Now you're talking my language. My flipping TB is allergic to everything under the sun *angryface*. Even orthopedic lambskin!

Any insider tips for me then? I'm lucky enough to have access to plenty of quiet roads but can't do any of our lovely tracks without boots, and can't do boots I tried with ski socks under boots but it was a bit of a disaster (though fairly entertaining)

 

[cptrayes]

What irks me on both sides are the people who feel there is only ONE way all horses MUST be kept - if there's a Barefoot Taliban then*there's very much a Shoeing Mujahideen.

Who ARE these people? I keep hearing them written about but I never see the blighters posting!

 

[tallyho!]

He's an absolute nightmare! I'm tempted to borrow the anglegrinder mentioned earlier and just chop his feet off, can't do any harm surely?



I fail to see how anything I've written on the thread can be compared to this?

No it doesn't because you were not responding to specific posts like I was but it doesn't stop you having an opinion on my posts. Just like I have opinions on other peoples posts. Why do have to keep making me reiterate my points?

What I wrote is no worse than what some others have written rhino. Please take it onto context and do not twist my words to suit you.

Are you not READING what I have written??? I am ANGRY that people take the MICKEY. I'm sick of it. Is that not clear??? Can't be because you need me to keep reminding you.

Why do you care anyway?

P.S. HAVE YOU TRIED LEATHER CAVALLOS?

 

[pookie]

TwoStroke - we could have an entire array of horse care despots

cptrayes - that'll be because of the nifty covert attire they sport for the purpose Seriously, I've come into contact with both - I've yet to see them on here (I don't read every thread) but HHO isn't the only place horse care is discussed.

 

[TwoStroke]

Any insider tips for me then? I'm lucky enough to have access to plenty of quiet roads but can't do any of our lovely tracks without boots, and can't do boots I tried with ski socks under boots but it was a bit of a disaster (though fairly entertaining)

Unfortunately my TB has enough soft tissue damage to cripple a small army, so is swanning around in the field atm. When he was sound he was able to go barefoot, so no boots required.

Since I've moved yards, though, the hacking is somewhat rougher, so I'm currently looking into booting options in the event that he comes sound again. I thought about maybe using the hoof skins under boots, but he'd probably be allergic to them too. Casts or glue ons are an option, but I'm not keen. I may try devising my own gaitor for an easyboot shell out of some of the material that his xc boots are made of (NEW airflow ones - one of the few things he's not allergic to!).

It would be SO much easier to put shoes on, but his feet are wrecked, so it's not really an option, even if I wanted to.

 

[Arizahn]

He's an absolute nightmare! I'm tempted to borrow the anglegrinder mentioned earlier and just chop his feet off, can't do any harm surely?

They did that in a film...think it was Bill Murray...con artist pretending to be Amish!

Cyber horses are the way to go - we could even have a nervous-novice button for use in emergencies! I'd use it

 

[cptrayes]

As said previously, I had my horse unshod before barefoot had been adopted and proselytised. No fancy feeding, no fancy grazing ideas, just old fashioned horse management and a great farrier or two (moved to different part of the country) on the way

You didn't just have old fashioned horse management and a great farrier, though you had both of those.

You also had:

- grazing that was not overrich for your horses

- grazing and forage that were not minerally unbalanced (iron and manganese overload causing copper deficiency with associated insulin and foot quality issues are coming up time and again in analyses from around the country)

- the time/energy/facilities to work your horses in a consistent fashion, or the luck to own horses that coped fine with varying workloads. Some don't.

- horses without Cushings/IR/EMS/EPSM all of which are likely to find barefoot difficult but because of foot weakness are also those likely to be damaged by shoes.

- the knowledge that marketers are wrong when they tell you that sugar laden muesli is a good food for your horse, however temptingly the message is pushed at you.

- the knowledge that fat horses are unhealthy horses, and to know a fat horse when you see one.

- the knowledge to recognise a good or bad farriery job when you see it.

And probably a lot more.

It baffles me why you get so worked up about us giving advice to the people who do not have your luck!

 

[rhino]

Unfortunately my TB has enough soft tissue damage to cripple a small army, so is swanning around in the field atm. When he was sound he was able to go barefoot, so no boots required.

Since I've moved yards, though, the hacking is somewhat rougher, so I'm currently looking into booting options in the event that he comes sound again. I thought about maybe using the hoof skins under boots, but he'd probably be allergic to them too. Casts or glue ons are an option, but I'm not keen. I may try devising my own gaitor for an easyboot shell out of some of the material that his xc boots are made of (NEW airflow ones - one of the few things he's not allergic to!).

It would be SO much easier to put shoes on, but his feet are wrecked, so it's not really an option, even if I wanted to.

Nothing to stop me putting shoes on if I want to; I have always had brilliant farriers who have kept him entirely sound through his career Field accident last summer means he can't be ridden, but neither do I think he's ready to be chucked out and left, so he is going out in hand every day. Would be nice if I could leave the shoes off (farrier's idea in the first place) but not sure how practical it's going to be in the long term.

Yes tallyho, I'm reading what you post, I'm also reading how you post...

 

[MerrySherryRider]

What excesses are you annoyed about?

I have a suspicion that the things you are annoyed about are, in turn, general observations about the excesses of unnecessary or even damaging shoeing; low sugar high fibre diets and a foot-friendly way of managing horses.

But if you point out some individual instances, in context, then maybe we will understand you better?

Erm, no. Can't say I'm actually annoyed. Bemused by the whole fanaticism.

How did we ever manage to keep horses and ponies unshod and sound before Barefoot overtook HHO?

 

[Goldenstar]

Still playing nicely everyone?
Just back from playing with my lifestyle choice BF horse .

 

[quirky]

You didn't just have old fashioned horse management and a great farrier, though you had both of those.
- the knowledge that marketers are wrong when they tell you that sugar laden muesli is a good food for your horse, however temptingly the message is pushed at you.

I don't think muesli was around that long ago .
All my horses have been fed straights

You cptrayes, I can see you are passionate about barefoot, whilst I am ambivalent about it either way.

What I do object to is being told time and again that people who keep their horses shod do so because they can't be @rsed to transition to barefoot because it is too difficult for them. It infers that we don't do the best for our horses and that we are somehow lesser horse people because of it.

 

[Clava]

How did we ever manage to keep horses and ponies unshod and sound before Barefoot overtook HHO?

Maybe straights were more frequently fed rather than mollassed feeds (we certainly didn't feed any mixes) and fields were less fertilised and produced, less stabling for ponies, less rugging for sure - lots of things have changed to make it harder to keep horses without shoes than it used to be and knowing more about forage and minerals have in turn made it easier

 

[tallyho!]

Yes tallyho, I'm reading what you post, I'm also reading how you post...

Thats good. I hope you will understand now why I get so irate.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Wow What a long thread.


I like having my pony barefoot as does not work much, and she seems fine,my donkey did have shoes on the front (Vets instructions).

Its all down to personal preference and what my horses are doing, One of my mares cannot go barefoot in front anymore. We tried 3 years to get her feet right, but unfortunately due to her past history it is not right for her. Front shoes is the way to go, her feet were chronic when we bought her . This is the day she arrived.
And yes the slits got from the ground almost to coronet and the other way ( sandcracks and grass cracks )

.
She is a different horse now with fronts on , but the battle to stop the flaring goes on.

Some horses do better with shoes - some barefoot -down to personal preference - individual needs etc. There is no right or wrong in my book you do what is best for your horse his needs- and his situation.IMO

 

[tallyho!]

Wow... glad she is comfortable now Leviathan.

 

[cptrayes]

Rhino, serious question, not a dig. You posted earlier about dangerous advice on nutrition that you are seeing posted. I've been thinking about my own posts. I try to point out that seaweed is not a good idea unless you know that your horse is low enough in iron and iodine whenever I see it recommended. I always say that I add copper because we are high in manganese and iron here but I will start adding that copper in excess is poisonous to my posts on that. We've had a discussion before and come to the conclusion that magnesium oxide is probably harmless in excess. I can't think of anything that anyone else is suggesting (yeast, cinnamon, linseed) that would be dangerous, but I would hate to think that any advice I've been party to could be.

Is there anything specific that you were referring to, or is it the danger of over-supplementing altogether that you see as the problem? Help me with a "health warning" wording and I'll happily use it on all nutrition posts in future.

Ta!

 

[quirky]

OMG... still???? Even after all my rude, inflammatory and hysterical posts????

I knew you'd come round to my way of thinking soon enough

 

[Pearlsasinger]

You didn't just have old fashioned horse management and a great farrier, though you had both of those.

You also had:

- grazing that was not overrich for your horses

- grazing and forage that were not minerally unbalanced (iron and manganese overload causing copper deficiency with associated insulin and foot quality issues are coming up time and again in analyses from around the country)

- the time/energy/facilities to work your horses in a consistent fashion, or the luck to own horses that coped fine with varying workloads. Some don't.

- horses without Cushings/IR/EMS/EPSM all of which are likely to find barefoot difficult but because of foot weakness are also those likely to be damaged by shoes.

- the knowledge that marketers are wrong when they tell you that sugar laden muesli is a good food for your horse, however temptingly the message is pushed at you.

- the knowledge that fat horses are unhealthy horses, and to know a fat horse when you see one.

- the knowledge to recognise a good or bad farriery job when you see one.

And probably a lot more.

It baffles me why you get so worked up about us giving advice to the people who do not have your luck!

I can't speak for quirky but I can say (although I don't get worked up about people giving sensible advice) that it does annoy me when I see posts about *my luck*. Most of your points could have been made about me.
The luck I've had in relation to horses/horsekeeping was
1. the RS I first went to - pure luck because a school friend lived near (although most in the district were comparable).
2. being introduced to the excellent farrier the RS used, who was our 1st farrier and who was involved in the training our subsequent farriers - except the one we only had 3 times.

Everything else has been down to our own research, observation of horses and common-sense. It really doesn't take a genius to work out that grass is better for horses to eat than molasses. As for bad luck - we've had plenty of that but very little in regard to horses' feet!

I wish that there were more threads about good feeding for horses which were not related to whether the horse wears shoes or not.

 

[cptrayes]

Erm, no. Can't say I'm actually annoyed. Bemused by the whole fanaticism.

How did we ever manage to keep horses and ponies unshod and sound before Barefoot overtook HHO?

Exactly the same way it is done now. Only now, there are fewer horses every day being shod when they do not need it just because it has become received wisdom that all horses doing road work, hunting, etc need shoes. And people have worked out how to do it for the difficult ones, when previously they were the horses who "just needed shoes".

And horses are alive who would have been dead because it has been a genuine discovery of the barefoot movement that removing the shoes has about a 4 times greater chance of returning a horse with foot lameness to work as conventional medication and remedial shoes.

Barefoot overtook HHO? A tiny proportion of threads are about barefoot and you are not forced to read them. Get real!

 

[tallyho!]

I knew you'd come round to my way of thinking soon enough

Who says I'm finished?

 

[TwoStroke]

Wow What a long thread.


I like having my pony barefoot as does not work much, and she seems fine,my donkey did have shoes on the front (Vets instructions).

Its all down to personal preference and what my horses are doing, One of my mares cannot go barefoot in front anymore. We tried 3 years to get her feet right, but unfortunately due to her past history it is not right for her. Front shoes is the way to go, her feet were chronic when we bought her . This is the day she arrived.
And yes the slits got from the ground almost to coronet and the other way ( sandcracks and grass cracks )

.
She is a different horse now with fronts on , but the battle to stop the flaring goes on.

Some horses do better with shoes - some barefoot -down to personal preference - individual needs etc. There is no right or wrong in my book you do what is best for your horse his needs- and his situation.IMO

I'd be interested in seeing pics of her feet now, if you have any, Leviathan?

My youngster's feet looked like this when I got him. They resolved pretty easily, though, so I guess it's horses for courses. Now they look like this:

 

[cptrayes]

I can't speak for quirky but I can say (although I don't get worked up about people giving sensible advice) that it does annoy me when I see posts about *my luck*. Most of your points could have been made about me.
The luck I've had in relation to horses/horsekeeping was
1. the RS I first went to - pure luck because a school friend lived near (although most in the district were comparable).
2. being introduced to the excellent farrier the RS used, who was our 1st farrier and who was involved in the training our subsequent farriers - except the one we only had 3 times.

Everything else has been down to our own research, observation of horses and common-sense. It really doesn't take a genius to work out that grass is better for horses to eat than molasses. As for bad luck - we've had plenty of that but very little in regard to horses' feet!

You don't consider it luck that you were born with sufficient brains to do your own research and to work out that grass is better for a horse than Spillers very expensive and well marketed molassed feed if you were a new owner? If indeed it is. Spring and autumn grass is lethal for some horses. Or lucky to be in a position, time-wise, money-wise and geography-wise to "observe horses"? Or to manage to have avoided buying one with metabolic disease affecting the feet?

I do. Other people are not so lucky as you or me. You get annoyed about people thinking you are lucky? I get annoyed that people who are lucky can't see their own luck. So we balance each other out.

I wish that there were more threads about good feeding for horses which were not related to whether the horse wears shoes or not.

Good feeding is good feeding whether you shoe your horse or not. But people only ask questions about it when they have a problem, and because of the way horses are made, those problems always show in the feet. Just read the threads and ignore the stuff about having no shoes on, it's irrelevant.

 

[rhino]

Rhino, serious question, not a dig. You posted earlier about dangerous advice on nutrition that you are seeing posted. I've been thinking about my own posts. I try to point out that seaweed is not a good idea unless you know that your horse is low enough in iron and iodine whenever I see it recommended. I always say that I add copper because we are high in manganese and iron here but I will start adding that copper in excess is poisonous to my posts on that. We've had a discussion before and come to the conclusion that magnesium oxide is probably harmless in excess. I can't think of anything that anyone else is suggesting (yeast, cinnamon, linseed) that would be dangerous, but I would hate to think that any advice I've been party to could be.

Is there anything specific that you were referring to, or is it the danger of over-supplementing altogether that you see as the problem? Help me with a "health warning" wording and I'll happily use it on all nutrition posts in future.

Ta!

It is a more general thing, and I think you are very careful in your posts to not state anything as a guarantee, but instead say that in your experience/in other people's experiences it has been seen to have a positive effect. The problem seems to be when other people then pass on the information, without the caveats.

It may well be that all the suggestions made are effective and safe, just that we don't know enough to categorically state that they are. And then there's always the exception to the rule anyway, which my horse is very good at being!

Aargh nutrition winds me up! Why then have I agreed to take up a sponsored place on a nutrition PGD? Madness..