Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Nice one Sticker.
thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing
- Thread starter the watcher
- Start date
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I just don't understand why this is such an emotive subject.
If you what your horse shod fine .
If you work your horse BF fine .
If you have your horse BF work it BF sometimes in boots sometimes fine,
If you use boots all the time when the horse is working fine,
If you have your BF some of the time in boots sometimes and shod part of the year fine.
But why do people object to people asking questions on this subject if you don't believe that horses can work without shoes why bother if others do its not affecting you is it.
Horses where not born with shoes on so I fail to a see why keeping them without shoes causes such a bun fight.
You know I don't really mind what anyone else does with their own horses I don't care whether you call it BF unshod or anything else .
Do I think it's good people can questions about BF thinking yes it's great to read about what others do and think ,why should people not debate this if you don't like it dont read it.
If you what your horse shod fine .
If you work your horse BF fine .
If you have your horse BF work it BF sometimes in boots sometimes fine,
If you use boots all the time when the horse is working fine,
If you have your BF some of the time in boots sometimes and shod part of the year fine.
But why do people object to people asking questions on this subject if you don't believe that horses can work without shoes why bother if others do its not affecting you is it.
Horses where not born with shoes on so I fail to a see why keeping them without shoes causes such a bun fight.
You know I don't really mind what anyone else does with their own horses I don't care whether you call it BF unshod or anything else .
Do I think it's good people can questions about BF thinking yes it's great to read about what others do and think ,why should people not debate this if you don't like it dont read it.
Shanny_mare
Well-Known Member
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The horse was dragging its toes and wearing off the front?
Personally I would want to find out why she was doing that, it's got nowt to do with being barefoot, other that it allowed it to be obvious in the hoof wear.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
That was my thought too, the horse is not wearing its feet down due to being barefoot but due to its gait, and this needs investigating.
Even if such a horse is shod, the toe will still drag, and soon wear the shoes thin.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Who knows... that's barefoot for you
but it does get people talking. You can just feel the love! 
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Who knows... that's barefoot for you
Honest I am really interested in why this raises such "passions".
Auslander
Well-Known Member
How can it be wrong to give a horse a treatment that will make him more comfortable. What else do you suggest I do? Shoot a happy horse who just happens to have degenerating joints (that he isn't even lame on)? If I was doing it so that I could put him back in full work and gallop the legs off him, then it would be morally wrong, but I am doing it to give a lovely horse a chance at a longer and more comfortable life. So shoot me for trying to do the best by him.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It's not wrong of course it's not I did with my old boy and he had two years of gentle fun then it was time to call it a day.
I frankly don't understand why people think its wrong to let an oldie have a bit of gentle fun on Danilon when they need it .
the watcher
Well-Known Member
Gosh, I went off to work for a few hours and you all carried on without me!
Thanks to everybody who contributed. Along with some of you I would love to see some properly measured results comparing unshod rehabilitation with remedial farriery. Information is empowering after all.
Thanks to everybody who contributed. Along with some of you I would love to see some properly measured results comparing unshod rehabilitation with remedial farriery. Information is empowering after all.
soloequestrian
Well-Known Member
Have you looked at the Rockley Farm site?
quirky
Well-Known Member
Horses gait referred to above was analysed. Shoes do not wear but then they aren't dragged, so I guess they wouldn't.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
That would be great I suspect it be a while coming.
the watcher
Well-Known Member
I am aware of what they do there and I see they claim a degree of success without actually promising or guaranteeing improvement. Good for them, if what they are doing works, but it isn't actually measureable.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Well it would be with a trial group of horses scanned / xrayed or whatever is apporiate during before and after different courses of treatment.
But whose to pay for it that's the question.
soloequestrian
Well-Known Member
Of course it is measureable! How else would you propose to collect the information that people keep claiming they want to see?!
Arizahn
Well-Known Member
Well, I had Hippo's shoes removed in April of this year, as she had chipped hooves anyway and needed a chance to grow them out! She's out at grass 24/7 and only became footy during her last trim - farrier had an off day and took too much off
So she's having time off until she isn't footy anymore. Yesterday, she chose to walk on the tarmac as opposed to the grass verge, and today she went so far as to break into trot whilst on a hard surface
This has taken almost a month, from bad trim to start of recovery, by the way. I have no idea who is right or wrong in this debate, but I do know that aside from this very recent issue, Hippo is happier and more confident without shoes. Her hooves are also far healthier overall.
I will not be putting shoes back on her.
So she's having time off until she isn't footy anymore. Yesterday, she chose to walk on the tarmac as opposed to the grass verge, and today she went so far as to break into trot whilst on a hard surface
This has taken almost a month, from bad trim to start of recovery, by the way. I have no idea who is right or wrong in this debate, but I do know that aside from this very recent issue, Hippo is happier and more confident without shoes. Her hooves are also far healthier overall.
I will not be putting shoes back on her.
the watcher
Well-Known Member
It would need to be a properly controlled comparison I think, with Xrays prior to rehab, and then a follow up 4-6 months later with equal numbers of horses in the 'barefoot rehab' group against conventional remedial farrier.
Apart from the FRC I can't think of anybody who might be interested in sponsoring it though
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Don't think the FRC will want to do that my gut feeling is it won't come out great for shoes or drugs for that matter, when I win the euro lottery I 'll fund it ( it's only a question of time)
soloequestrian
Well-Known Member
And why is a horse that has been through remedial shoeing without success and then is brought sound by Rockley not considered to be it's own control? They have an impressive number of these. How else would you propose to conduct a controlled comparison? Induce navicular in a group of genetically identical horses and then treat them differently?!
I'm sorry, but when people start banging on about the lack of scientific evidence for the efficacy of barefoot, it just seems to me that they are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing la la la very loudly.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I do think it is important for people to know it is an option, particularly if the horse already had pathologies. It is up to them if they want to pursue it but if they have the required information to hand about other peoples experiences then they can at least make their own minds up. I'm and out and and out scientist and although yes there is limited hard evidence a lot of the theory makes sense to me, also the fact that repeat MRI scans really are prohibitively expensive currently (and once the owner has a sounder horse they are happy) The feeding/supplementing is terribly wooly but I accept that!
Frank has coffin joint DJD and slightly reverse rotated pedal bones he is lame in normal and bar shoes, in and out of work (worse in work) and not completely sound with steroid injections.
16 weeks with no shoes.. he is sound and moving really well. Yes he has been footy at times but not wholly uncomfortable apart from one day (when had galloped round too much that night) when he made use of the supplied pea gravel. His feet have changed hugely, one hind which never grew straight now has much better ML balance, I have been very impressed. Also very glad that I have tried it, which I wouldn't had it not been for the information previously garnered from this forum. If he is lame again then so be it he retires but he isn't really ready for that just yet
He has boots in front. These are because
i) in order for him to do the work we want to (approx 45 mins a day now) his feet would be wearing down to quickly as the growth rate has not really caught up yet. Using boots instead of shoes allows the foot to fully function most of the time and well in shoes.
ii) he is footy on some surfaces.. if off road I tend to take them with me and put on as required. Because of the pedal bone issue he has flat soles in front which means he is more likely to feel the odd stone, the flatness is certainly improving though.
The watcher there is a study like that I think, bare with me!
Frank has coffin joint DJD and slightly reverse rotated pedal bones he is lame in normal and bar shoes, in and out of work (worse in work) and not completely sound with steroid injections.
16 weeks with no shoes.. he is sound and moving really well. Yes he has been footy at times but not wholly uncomfortable apart from one day (when had galloped round too much that night) when he made use of the supplied pea gravel. His feet have changed hugely, one hind which never grew straight now has much better ML balance, I have been very impressed. Also very glad that I have tried it, which I wouldn't had it not been for the information previously garnered from this forum. If he is lame again then so be it he retires but he isn't really ready for that just yet
He has boots in front. These are because
i) in order for him to do the work we want to (approx 45 mins a day now) his feet would be wearing down to quickly as the growth rate has not really caught up yet. Using boots instead of shoes allows the foot to fully function most of the time and well in shoes.
ii) he is footy on some surfaces.. if off road I tend to take them with me and put on as required. Because of the pedal bone issue he has flat soles in front which means he is more likely to feel the odd stone, the flatness is certainly improving though.
The watcher there is a study like that I think, bare with me!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
ah not quite its all about angles but suggests barefoot trimming beneficial for under run or low heels.
the watcher
Well-Known Member
One could argue that the very number of remedial farriers suggests that there must be some value to the additional training and greater skill, if they weren't getting results surely nobody would bother with the training, or with using them? What I would like to know is how they compare in terms of success
china
Well-Known Member
If they have a degenerative joints and are not lame, what is the need for treatment.... Nature is/has taken its course.
Like I said, it is purely a personal opinion I do not judge those that choose these options Nor do I wish to be judged myself. My boy is only 14 and at his prime and I would love to continue his dressage and his jumping, but this is for my benefit and he could potentially be on danilon for 10 + years and that is something I have a problem with. I would rather he was comfortable enough to hack which he enjoys than pumping him full of drugs to compete him for my benefit. Perhaps I would think differently if he were in his late teens/twenties and he needed pain relief to continue the odd poodle round the block for his remaining few years, but that is not the case.
Cahill
Well-Known Member
ps.never use hoof oil/products but do gof or a paddle in a stream if it is very dry and no dew.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
The elephant in the room that no body addresses is why these horses are going lame in the first place.
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the shoeing contingent ( I have shod horses and bf or unshod if you like ,horses ) every trip to a show I make I see shoeing that is are just terrible .
Some of this is due to bad nutrition or horses being shod continuously with out a break or the shoes being left on too long between shoeings but some of it down to bad farriers and the much quoted time they take to train does not seem to prevent this.
As an owner you have no choice but educate yourself and try to make the best desisions you can for your horses.
It's not easy in hard to realise that you have take responsiblity for this you can't trust the professionals that's why I think there's all the BF threads people Are more and more aware of the issues and are searching for a way forward.
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the shoeing contingent ( I have shod horses and bf or unshod if you like ,horses ) every trip to a show I make I see shoeing that is are just terrible .
Some of this is due to bad nutrition or horses being shod continuously with out a break or the shoes being left on too long between shoeings but some of it down to bad farriers and the much quoted time they take to train does not seem to prevent this.
As an owner you have no choice but educate yourself and try to make the best desisions you can for your horses.
It's not easy in hard to realise that you have take responsiblity for this you can't trust the professionals that's why I think there's all the BF threads people Are more and more aware of the issues and are searching for a way forward.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
It is measurable. The whole of Project Dexter which now has 50 horses in it, has been done under scientific standards under the guidance of a Professor from Liverpool University Veterinary Hospital.
How much measurement do you want? How about the fact that Bryan, one of the horses in the study, who left Rockley six months ago, jumped a clear round at Hickstead yesterday, as recorded in today's blog? He is just one of the successes they have had, in a study which is now greater in numbers than any properly conducted study into remedial shoeing, and has a far greater success rate than even the worst controlled shod study you can find.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Success rate of return to full work for remedial farrriery and medication of caudal hoof lameness is around 20% depending on the study.
Success rate of return to full work for barefoot rehabs at Rockley is around 80% or over 50 horses. To my recollection, 47 of those were previously remedially shod and medicated, so the figures for success are even more impressive.
Dozens of us have also done one-offs. Mine had an appointment booked with a lethal injection after adequan, tildren, HLA and bar shoes failed to bring him sound. Last weekend he won, yet again, very high standard showing classes, has hunted when his owner can reach the meet and is in full work including jumping. I'd be happy to have his xrays done again for comparison if anyone wants to give me the money
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
But China how do you know Auslanders horse does not love what he does and would be bored to death hacking about ?
Some horses love competion type work Auslander horse may glory in his skills and enjoying them with his rider . Auslander is not necessarily forcing this horse into this work for her greater glory she might just be doing it because he loves it to.
You take the desision that yours prefers hacking about AUslander is best placed to take the desision for hers.
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
I haven't read every post, but I am the owner of an ex -racer TB with navicular, bilateral spavin, hind limb PSLD and fetlock arthritis. lIn October I was told it was unlikely she would ever come sound, would not be rideable again and I should consider PTS or field ornament. She is now unshod, sound and ridden. I don't buy into the "barefoot cures everything" line, but for me it works. I don't care if you shoe or not, I can only give my experience - if you don't want to believe me or take any notice that's fine - move on to the next post.