thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing

[cptrayes]

Oh thank the gods! A voice of reason!

Explain please?

Why is it the voice of reason when this person says that they shoe their horses when they do a lot of road work and take them off when they are not doing a lot of road work?

And not the voice of reason when I and others say that we do as much roadwork and anyone would wish to do with any of our horses without shoes on?

The poster did not give any evidence that their horse needed the shoes. They just shod because they felt they were doing a lot of road work.

What is "reasonable" about that? And what is unreasonable about suggesting that the horse could probably cope with the roadwork just fine, provided it wasn't taken straight from 1 hour a day to 4 hours a day in one leap?

 

[china]

But China how do you know Auslanders horse does not love what he does and would be bored to death hacking about ?
Some horses love competion type work Auslander horse may glory in his skills and enjoying them with his rider . Auslander is not necessarily forcing this horse into this work for her greater glory she might just be doing it because he loves it to.
You take the desision that yours prefers hacking about AUslander is best placed to take the desision for hers.

You make it sound like I am telling auslander that her decision is wrong..... I will reiterate, it is my personal opinion and individual to different circumstances. .. In this case, this opinion is individual to my circumstances.

 

[Auslander]

If they have a degenerative joints and are not lame, what is the need for treatment.... Nature is/has taken its course.

Because it's degenerative, and will get progressively worse if I don't do what I can to help him now, before it gets so bad that he can't be helped with palliative therapies. He's only 15, loves his work and is as happy as larry. I am not choosing to intervene because I selfishly want to keep him working - I am choosing to intervene to maintain the quality of life he has at the moment for as long as I can. I would have no hesitation in having a horse that was unsound and unhappy PTS, and if, a few years down the line, I find myself in that situ with Alf - I will make damn sure I make the decision to let him go before he starts to deteriorate significantly.

Your view is just that, your view - to which you were entitled, but making comments like 'morally wrong' in relation to treatment that you wouldn't choose to give your horse is a kick in the teeth for those of us who have chosen to go down that route to help our horses.

Apologies to everyone else for straying off topic, but I got worked up!!

 

[china]

Goodness me..

 

[Auslander]

But China how do you know Auslanders horse does not love what he does and would be bored to death hacking about ?
Some horses love competion type work Auslander horse may glory in his skills and enjoying them with his rider . Auslander is not necessarily forcing this horse into this work for her greater glory she might just be doing it because he loves it to.
You take the desision that yours prefers hacking about AUslander is best placed to take the desision for hers.

Thank you GS. Ironically, Alf is spending more time in the field than being ridden at the moment due to my sheer volume of work, but in the not too distant future, I do hope to do a bit with him. I haven't gone down the treatment route so that I can continue to dressage him - I have done it because I think its the right thing to do for him. IF he can continue to be a dressage dude, that would be lovely, but if not - I won't be breaking my heart over it. That's not what motivates me any more. I just like having him around.

 

[Goldenstar]

You make it sound like I am telling auslander that her decision is wrong..... I will reiterate, it is my personal opinion and individual to different circumstances. .. In this case, this opinion is individual to my circumstances.

Saying that it's morally wrong to use these therapies is a pretty strong thing to say.

 

[rhino]

Saying that it's morally wrong to use these therapies is a pretty strong thing to say.

Totally agree. There's definitely a place for preventative and palliative treatment. I wonder how many people would be absolutely shocked at the number of high level competition horses who receive such treatment as a preventative measure?!

 

[china]

Do people seriously not read posts clearly?? I feel those treatments are BOARDERING MOARALLY WRONG IN MY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Jeeez

 

[Goldenstar]

Totally agree. There's definitely a place for preventative and palliative treatment. I wonder how many people would be absolutely shocked at the number of high level competition horses who receive such treatment as a preventative measure?!

Well I know exactly how common that is and I have to say I would not want that for mine but I see thats different to letting an older much loved friend continue to enjoy the life he loves .
Giving Tildren to sound nine year old is a bit nutty in my book.( and only for the very wealthy )

 

[rhino]

Well I know exactly how common that is and I have to say I would not want that for mine but I see thats different to letting an older much loved friend continue to enjoy the life he loves .
Giving Tildren to sound nine year old is a bit nutty in my book.( and only for the very wealthy )

There's not a huge amount of research into preventative treatments, but on a personal level I've been having the human equivalent of joint injections into my knee since I was about 17. Before that I was facing the prospect of a knee replacement by 20, I'm now a decade and a bit older than that and still going strong

 

[the watcher]

The Rockley Farm results are certainly promising, shame they are buried so deep in their blog and perhaps they should be debated more widely. It is reassuring to read there that it is about more than just taking the shoes off. The feed and management advice appears to be mostly common sense and ideally what we all should be doing, whether our horses are shod or not.

Interestingly I have the farrier coming tomorrow and planned to discuss with him the possibility of taking the fronts off the Haffie pony, she has reached a level of training where she has moved completely off her forehand so should be able to cope more comfortably..it will be useful to have some examples to discuss (although whether the WB would ever cope without shoes is a much bigger question)

Having said that the pony is there to be ridden and showjumped, we don't have time for any kind of lengthy transition, so if she isn't coping the shoes will go back on

 

[cptrayes]

They aren't buried there is a button in the top two lines of the blog just under the heading. Nic will email a detailed document to anyone who asks for it, listing each horse individually.

 

[Tiffany]

I'm much older than 21 so to me they are either shod or unshod and it should be what works for the horse.

I'm not for or against shod or unshod and certainly wouldn't criticise what people choose. My girl has been unshod on back for years and is shod on front. She was diagnosed with navicular last year, I have a wonderful farrier and vet and my mare is sound and happy

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Sorry if this has already been said, I've only read to page 5.

Firstly, I couldn't care less if your horse is shod or not, as long as its pain free. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular.

I see shoes as a painkiller. If a horse is foot sore without shoes, there must be a reason for that. The owner has two choices. Either: find the reason, adjust the diet/workload and lifestyle, if the owner is willing/able; or alternatively, shoe the horse.

Some owners don't want to do the work involved in keeping their horse without shoes. Some owners are unable to do what is necessary due to being on livery and restricted by what the yard owner will allow. These owners will shoe the horse, that's fine.

Some owners will use hoof boots when the horse is foot sore in certain circumstances rather than foot sore all the time. Their horses are not suffering in pain when the hoof boots are off.

To those who have asked if it isn't the shoe-less-ness that is making the horse foot sore in the first place, I have a question... Do you think foals should be born with shoes on, or shod at birth? Not having shoes doesn't make a horse foot sore. Having a less than ideal lifestyle makes horses foot sore. It is not the horse who can't go without shoes, it is the owner who is unwilling or unable to provide the necessary lifestyle (necessary for that individual horse) to enable it to *remain* without shoes. This is not a dig at those owners.

To me, its the same as a horse that is lame on one leg. The owner can either: find the cause of the lameness and do what is necessary to make the horse sound; or give painkillers and ignore the cause. Both have the same end result, a pain free horse, but one is an easier option than the other. Ignoring the cause of lameness can lead to a worsening of the condition and the horse being retired/PTS sooner, the same as shoeing a foot sore horse can. Sometimes ignoring the cause of the lameness / foot-sore-ness will not make the condition worse (or at least not for a long time), it depends on what the cause is. I don't care about this either way, as long as the horses pain is managed while its alive. The same as I don't care if a horse is kept shod or without shoes, as long as it isn't suffering in pain.

 

[Moomin1]

Just reading a few of these, and not going to get into the barefoot/shod thing again, but out of interest wonder how many barefooters rug their horses every time the weather gets rainy/windy etc? Serious question - not intended to be sarky or anything - it's just the post mentioning about whether people think that foals should be shod made me wonder!

 

[the watcher]

They aren't buried there is a button in the top two lines of the blog just under the heading. Nic will email a detailed document to anyone who asks for it, listing each horse individually.

Maybe, but to source it you would need to know what Rockley Farm are doing and who they are..which I do, but otherwise would not have seen those details

 

[the watcher]

To those who have asked if it isn't the shoe-less-ness that is making the horse foot sore in the first place, I have a question... Do you think foals should be born with shoes on, or shod at birth? Not having shoes doesn't make a horse foot sore. Having a less than ideal lifestyle makes horses foot sore. It is not the horse who can't go without shoes, it is the owner who is unwilling or unable to provide the necessary lifestyle (necessary for that individual horse) to enable it to *remain* without shoes. This is not a dig at those owners.

Nothing that we do with horse past the first couple of years of their lives is in any way natural in most cases. We artificially feed them, we enclose them so that they cannot roam freely to forage, we ride or drive them. Shoeing could be seen as a compensation for compromising their natural state.

 

[angelish]

Agree 100% with you

I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel

I can also see how it could be hugely benificial to some horses and how "some" horses can be fine without shoes but some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone

Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved

 

[YorksG]

The biggest issue is finding the correct management for each indvidual horse, the most appropriate professionals, with a governing body and registration system and using that rarest of commodities, common sense. In my opinion the owner has to take responsibility for knowing how the animal should move, look etc and work accordingly. No one system will work for all horses, as an example, one of our horses cannot tolerate alfalfa, two others thrive on it, we don't feed it to the one which cannot tolerate it

 

[Fii]

I find posts about Barefoot very interesting, mainly because i have two Lami prone ponies, so a lot of advice has been very helpful to me!
Most of the posters who advocate barefoot are really helpful, there seems to be only one who is evangelical and extremely rude to those who question it, or who want to shoe their horses, this person does non of you any favours in trying to win people over!!

 

[Fii]

I dont have a problem with my farriers shoeing, i dont have shoes on any of mine at the moment because i have no need for them, i still have the farrier for trimming though, and she has never told me i should have shoes !

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Moomin1 - I do a mix of things. I keep my horse as naturally as possible, whilst not forgetting that by domesticating horses we can't replicate an entirely natural environment. Eg I exercise the horse because I can't arrange 1000 acres of varied terrain for him to roam across. Left in a field with no exercise he'd be obese. I don't rug in summer, I bring in if horse is unhappy due to flies or shivering in torrential rain. But I have no problem with people who would choose to rug in those circumstances. In winter I rug and clip (or not) depending on how often and how hard I intend to exercise the horse. I don't have a problem with people who full clip so they don't have to deal with moulting hair, as long as they rug appropriately.

The Watcher - I agree with you. Some people shoe horses to compensate for compromising the horses natural state. I don't have a problem with it. I do think though that its inaccurate when instead people say they *have* to shoe. IMO no, they don't have to shoe they choose to, and should acknowledge their reasons for doing so. I believe in doing things to/with your horses as an informed choice, rather than blindly following what others say because you think you have to and there is no other way. Though I fully accept that some people would not want to undertake the necessary research to make an informed choice. Some people like being ignorant. (I don't mean ignorant as an insult, but in its original meaning as a lack of knowledge).

Basically I'm pretty laid back and mostly believe in live and let live, each to their own etc. Just so long as nobody is suffering. I don't call barefoot transitioning suffering, the same as I find needles painful but don't consider my annual flu vaccination to be suffering.

 

[AngieandBen]

Just reading a few of these, and not going to get into the barefoot/shod thing again, but out of interest wonder how many barefooters rug their horses every time the weather gets rainy/windy etc? Serious question - not intended to be sarky or anything - it's just the post mentioning about whether people think that foals should be shod made me wonder!

The only time my two ponies have had a rug on is when they have a coat change and its throwing it down with rain and very windy; Even then its because they are getting on a bit. When it was -11 and snowing they weren't rugged, they have plenty of natural shelter, and neither are clipped, always lose weight over winter which is good especially this year with all that green stuff around!

 

[Brightbay]

One of the main reasons these threads turn into Barefoot V. Shod is because there are not enough well shod horses out there.
As a farrier who for the last few years has only trimmed I feel very sorry for owners who have had to turn to barefoot because their horse was not shod well.
One is not the answer for the other, they are 2 separate professions, based on 2 deferent theories
A well shod horse, (and by the way there is such a thing) will have some recognisable professional features, footfall for one: http://www.rockfoot.com/footfall.html
No owner should feel they are being cruel by either shoeing or not shoeing, BUT farriers and trimmer should be very aware they can both perform cruel acts that can in the short or long term cause damage.
All the horses I shod whose owners changed with me to barefoot ( all but 2) went through transition very easily, due to the shoes they had on.
I have this very day taken on 2 horses that have been shod in a way that has
been detrimental to there wellbeing, but the owner wishes to eventually go back to having them shod.
I have no problem with this, although I will do my best to produce feet that may make the owner think twice when the time comes.
It is time that a number farriers put their hands up and admit that some owners have come to barefoot though shear desperation with farriery.

We need in my professions an education system that exposes the vet, farrier, and trimmer student to all that is on offer so the owner is not having to go on threads like these to make their mind up as to what to do next in order to protect the wellbeing of their animal.

Hurrah! The voice of reason . Excellent post, thank you

 

[tallyho!]

I find posts about Barefoot very interesting, mainly because i have two Lami prone ponies, so a lot of advice has been very helpful to me!
Most of the posters who advocate barefoot are really helpful, there seems to be only one who is evangelical and extremely rude to those who question it, or who want to shoe their horses, this person does non of you any favours in trying to win people over!!

Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it...

I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok? I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses.

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional

 

[soloequestrian]

I do think though that its inaccurate when instead people say they *have* to shoe. IMO no, they don't have to shoe they choose to, and should acknowledge their reasons for doing so. I believe in doing things to/with your horses as an informed choice, rather than blindly following what others say because you think you have to and there is no other way. Though I fully accept that some people would not want to undertake the necessary research to make an informed choice. Some people like being ignorant. (I don't mean ignorant as an insult, but in its original meaning as a lack of knowledge).

I think this is very well put. I sometimes really wish I knew nothing about barefoot and that I was still happily handing over responsibility to a farrier.... but I've reached the stage of 'no going back' - I couldn't shoe again, the thought of it gives me the heebie jeebies and I have actually had nightmares about my horses being 'accidentally' shod! Ignorance definitely would be bliss.
None of my three had a real tranistioning period - they just had their shoes taken off and carried on as normal. The only difficulties I've had have been moving to somewhere with very hard stoney hacking - I had to start using boots part of the time to cope. Mine are all TB/TB x and have rugs as necessary - they do live out all year round in the north of Scotland, I don't know if that makes me alternative or not....

 

[eahotson]

One of the main reasons these threads turn into Barefoot V. Shod is because there are not enough well shod horses out there.
As a farrier who for the last few years has only trimmed I feel very sorry for owners who have had to turn to barefoot because their horse was not shod well.
One is not the answer for the other, they are 2 separate professions, based on 2 deferent theories
A well shod horse, (and by the way there is such a thing) will have some recognisable professional features, footfall for one: http://www.rockfoot.com/footfall.html
No owner should feel they are being cruel by either shoeing or not shoeing, BUT farriers and trimmer should be very aware they can both perform cruel acts that can in the short or long term cause damage.
All the horses I shod whose owners changed with me to barefoot ( all but 2) went through transition very easily, due to the shoes they had on.
I have this very day taken on 2 horses that have been shod in a way that has been detrimental to there wellbeing, but the owner wishes to eventually go back to having them shod.
I have no problem with this, although I will do my best to produce feet that may make the owner think twice when the time comes.
It is time that a number farriers put their hands up and admit that some owners have come to barefoot though shear desperation with farriery.
We need in my professions an education system that exposes the vet, farrier, and trimmer student to all that is on offer so the owner is not having to go on threads like these to make their mind up as to what to do next in order to protect the wellbeing of their animal.

Excellent post.Interestingly my farrier also is a qualified bare foot trimmer.He said he wanted to find out what all the fuss was about.He has no issues with either but says that the bare foot trim is basically what he would have done anyway if he wasn't going to put a shoe on the foot.

 

[lazybee]

Agree 100% with you

I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel

I can also see how it could be hugely benificial to some horses and how "some" horses can be fine without shoes but some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone

Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved

I believe ^^ this ^^ is what the silent majority think and those who can't be bothered to read all the holier than thou rants of self appointed 'ex-spurts'; who worship at he high altar of Rockley farm.

I’d listen more closely to what people (like the unbelievably arrogant Pale Rider) had to say, but I keep getting distracted by the excrementos de toro flying about. Statements like nailing lumps or metal on or failing to address the cause of the problem are clearly intended to make shod horses appear to be nothing more than a welfare or cruelty cases. Another one is: the only reason for shoeing is that the owner lacks the commitment or know how to go bare. Clearly total rubbish.

By the way I have 5 out of six unshod. I don't have an axe to grind either way and do what's best for the individual horse (and one donkey) or try my very best to. I will never except there can be only be one way and can't understand why people have separate into 'camps' ??? There's one advocate of barefoot on here who will argue for argument's sake in the vain attempt to get the last word I really don't get it.

 

[quirky]

I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post etc etc"

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

As the saying goes, all horses can become barefoot but not all owners can. Its certainly not for the quick fix, its a long term thing, depends if want/can fit it into your lifestyle.

Well if this quote isn't a down doer on shod horses, I don't know what else it is

If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.

Umm ... this is what you posted ... disagreeing with a post and telling others who agree with that poster, not to post either. Whichever way it is read, it can not be construed any other way

 

[cptrayes]

Maybe, but to source it you would need to know what Rockley Farm are doing and who they are..which I do, but otherwise would not have seen those details

Would you have her raise her prices so that she can publicize it?

We would all like the research published but the Professor who helped her set it up and regularly reviews her results has other things to do with his time and there is no money available to pay anyone to do it.