Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Still wondering why this is so emotive.
thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing
- Thread starter the watcher
- Start date
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
If you had one of the approaching fifty horses that have been to Rockley Farm as a last resort after meds and shoes have failed and you are running out of insurance money and your vet and farrier are telling you to retire it or shoot it, and your horse is now in full work, you'd be worshipping at the high altar of Rockley Farm too
The only problem with Rockley is that there is only one of it. We need at least three others in other corners of the country.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare footsounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel
I don't think you will find anyone who posts on HHO who does not agree with this statement.
I don't see anyone holding a gun to your head to make you open and read threads about barefoot. If you have an issue with people you meet face to face take it out on them, but don't blame us if you choose to read stuff you don't have to.
Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved
I hope you feel better for it. It certainly didn't help the discussion any, so it would be about the only benefit your effort achieved
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
It is a bit like driving on the left, I do it, but have never actually read the legislation which demands it, we assume we are doing the right thing, but then one day we fall asleep, wake up in France where those froggies are doing it all wrong, we are OK from 12 noon to 2.00pm because the roads are empty, but suddenly there is a reality check and the motorways fill up again.
We are confused, but what the heck, they will see the error of their ways, I am driving on the left.
The seagulls are following the trawler.
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
No it's not.
The key is in the interpretation that you are putting on the words.
"can" Not all owners, especially those who have difficult horses, can provide what that horse would need to go barefoot, especially if they are in a livery yard, even if they wanted to.
"want" not all owners want to alter their lifestyle to allow their horse to work barefoot. It might be quite possible for their horse to manage, for example, if they were able to work it every day in the winter dark nights, but they make a decision that it would not fit with the rest of their lifestyle to do that (ie they have a life
! ) It is YOU reading a value judgement into that statement, not the poster.
By they way I don't agree that ALL horses can do it, but I do agree that there are very few that can't and that most of those would probably turn out to have metabolic disease. Also, it is very often a "quick fix". Horses which are difficult to manage barefoot are in the minority, which is why so many anti-barefoot people have happily unshod horses
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BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
I think to be fair, when people say that some owners may not wish to, or be able to, take their horses barefoot, it isn't meant as a general criticism of their horse management or care. It is the fact that it often requires a change of feed , daily management, and access to barefoot friendly outdoor space, for some horses (not all) to manage the transition. For those owners that do not have the time / inclination / environment to do this, then going barefoot may not be an option?
So less a judgement, more a statement of fact? And in those circumstances, where the horse is in pain and the circumstances not ideal for BF, I've seen all the BF gang advise people to shoe. I simply do not recognise the accusations of it being 'shoved down people's throats'. I think this is an defensiveness on the part of some readers.
I'm not an advocate either way, but find the BF stuff fascinating.
So less a judgement, more a statement of fact? And in those circumstances, where the horse is in pain and the circumstances not ideal for BF, I've seen all the BF gang advise people to shoe. I simply do not recognise the accusations of it being 'shoved down people's throats'. I think this is an defensiveness on the part of some readers.
I'm not an advocate either way, but find the BF stuff fascinating.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Agree 100% with you
I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot
I can also see how it could be hugely benificial to some horses and how "some" horses can be fine without shoes but some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone
Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved
Good points.
Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
It never used to be so trendy to have your horses unshod.
Clava
Well-Known Member
Good points.
Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
It never used to be so trendy to have your horses unshod.
Hysteria?
I think it did used to be far more common for horses to be unshod for periods and ponies never shod. I also think that the trend is the other way as more people realise that they do not need to shoe.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Good points.
Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
It never used to be so trendy to have your horses unshod.
BF is not a lifestyle choice for me and dont care if you call it trendy and rolleyes how rude you are.
This is exactly the type of post I don't understand unnecessary rude .
Unable to understand that some people make the desision based on the needs of the horse.
In the camp of what I do with my horse is best for horses everyone who does it differently is making desisions based on fads or fashion .
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
This is exactly the type of phrase being trotted out implying that owners of shod horses are second rate. Its a loaded statement.
What is this mantra being reeled out all the time ? Good horse care is good horse care, what's good for a shod horse is good for an unshod one. What are you on about ?
pines of rome
Well-Known Member
All I can say, is there are a lot of happy trendy horses out there who would otherwise been pts!
Anglebracket
Well-Known Member
I find the money argument unconvincing. The costs associated with research arise from conducting the research not from publishing it (unless of course you select an expensive open-access journal). Academics generally want to publish their findings in peer-reviewed journals. This is an important part of the research process. So if a Professor has already invested his / her time and effort in conducting a research study, why would they not want to publish their findings?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I think I read that they never finished the research study it the reason was the high cost of the MRI scanning .
quirky
Well-Known Member
You see, I read it in the same vein as you but I have been told that my interpretation is wrong
.... by a barefooter ... no surprise there then 
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Two barefooters have referred to people as 'thick'. I think you'll find that is rude.
Don't recall saying 'BF' was a lifestyle choice for you, I've never met you. For me, not shoeing my horses is just a part of my management for them, not an obsession and if they need shoes, they'll have them. They wouldn't suffer for some ideology.
Anglebracket
Well-Known Member
Thank you for clarifying. Did they conduct MRI scanning on any of the horses? If yes, it might still be worth publishing the work. If not, how was success measured? Did they perform diagnostic tests before and after treatment? Again, these results might still be worth publishing.
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
I think that's interesting, because that isn't at all how I wrote or meant it! I thought I'd written it as a non-judgemental statement - i.e. if you don't have the time or environment to go BF, then that's how things are? As I clearly stated I am not an advocate either way. As far as I'm concerned if you think its tosh, don't do it! Really.
So therefore if I didn't mean it in a judgemental way but some people take it that way, is the 'meaning' being added by the reader?
Perhaps because these discussions always get so heated, people find it hard to read posts without attaching emotion to it? I don't know.
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
In fairness horserider, I think it's about how a reader chooses to perceieve a comment also.
I don't find the above offensive, nor do I believe it makes me second rate. I believe it's an accurate view of the circumstances. I haven't got the time or inclination to barefoot rehab/transition my horse. Whether I say that or a BFT member says that to me, the facts remain the same - it's true, I don't.
I don't have the time or inclination to learn how to canter half pass either, someone stating I could do it, if I could be bothered, is right and not being offensive, merely stating a fact. Yes in SOME cases you couldn't learn it, but in most, you could.
Doesn't matter if you don't want to though - not to me anyway
I don't find the above offensive, nor do I believe it makes me second rate. I believe it's an accurate view of the circumstances. I haven't got the time or inclination to barefoot rehab/transition my horse. Whether I say that or a BFT member says that to me, the facts remain the same - it's true, I don't.
I don't have the time or inclination to learn how to canter half pass either, someone stating I could do it, if I could be bothered, is right and not being offensive, merely stating a fact. Yes in SOME cases you couldn't learn it, but in most, you could.
Doesn't matter if you don't want to though - not to me anyway
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
In fairness horserider, I think it's about how a reader chooses to perceieve a comment also.
I don't find the above offensive, nor do I believe it makes me second rate. I believe it's an accurate view of the circumstances. I haven't got the time or inclination to barefoot rehab/transition my horse. Whether I say that or a BFT member says that to me, the facts remain the same - it's true, I don't.
I don't have the time or inclination to learn how to canter half pass either, someone stating I could do it, if I could be bothered, is right and not being offensive, merely stating a fact. Yes in SOME cases you couldn't learn it, but in most, you could.
Doesn't matter if you don't want to though - not to me anyway
I think that's the point - it doesn't matter if you don't want to! It's fine to say 'I don't believe in it and I don't wish to go down that route'.
I think where the BF gang question people, is where instead of saying the above, people say 'it can't be done with my breed of horse / the work I do etc'. Their experience seems to be that it usually can be done with most horses - if the circumstances allow.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
But I think that's where you will find the BT are too.
And you did call BF a lifestyle choice and that people who work their horses without shoes are being trendy making desisions not based on the needs of their horses making their horses suffer for ideology and any just for good measure hysterical as well.
As you said you don't know me thats why I feel I can say your post was sweeping and well rude .
I don't read every post ( honest ) and I don't think calling you thick is good manners either if someone calls you thick far better answer that point in a reasoned way than throw a grenade at all people with BF horses .
When I read your post I felt throwing one in your direction because when you make a post like that you cant but feel it aimed at you if that's how you keep your horse ,so it's no get out clause to say I don't know you you could not say French people.......... And then say to a French person but I don't mean you I dont know you.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Well if this quote isn't a down doer on shod horses, I don't know what else it is
Umm ... this is what you posted ... disagreeing with a post and telling others who agree with that poster, not to post either. Whichever way it is read, it can not be construed any other way
quirky, let me tell you. Many of my friends have well shod ridden, competing horses. Many of my friends have well trimmed ridden, competing horses and ponies.
I do not do a "down doer" on them. I manage my horses how I want to, they do it their way and we learn from each other. Please come to see me and tell me to my face I "down do" you. The horses I ride for people come shod or unshod, and as long as sound and performing I'm a happy rider.
Why you have to pick a fight with barefooters I will never know.
Yes I posted that because you feel the need to come on a fairly level discussion and berate barefooters. Why shouldn't I ask you why you bother posting if you just want to be nasty? In my opinion, thats what it sounds like when you post. You haven't got a nice word to say and that is why I come across as rude towards you because I don't like the way you accuse barefooters of doing imaginary things.
Sorry to be rude to you, I can't stand it when people "down do" barefooters who are just ordinary people who are on a learning curve.
p.s. I have never come across a barefooter who has done a "down doer" on anyone. Most, if not all, barefooters had a shod horse once and may use shoes again if necessary.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
A number of the horses that go to Nic will have had MRI scans beforehand, usually in the earlier stages of their diagnosis when they were being treated using remedial shoeing etc. The problem that Nic has is that, although she would ideally love to be able to have these horses scanned again when they leave Rockley, there isn't really any money to do this. A lot of horses who go to Rockley have used up their insurance money already or, even if the insurance covers their stay at Rockley, because they have also been treated before they go to Nic, there simply isn't enough money left to cover the scans. However, last time I was there (about 1 1/2 months ago) Nic was preparing for her vets to come out and try to get decent images of the inside of the hoof using ultrasound. The results of this (reported on the blog) were mixed - for instance, to get the best image the frog would have needed to be pared right down, causing considerable discomfort to the horse, and obviously Nic wasn't willing to do this. But they did get usable images and I think the idea is that they will try scanning horses when they arrive and when they leave, because ultrasound is much cheaper. But this stage of the research process is still in the very early stages. I don't know what the long-term plan is re. publishing - I suspect it depends on the quality of the images they get from the ultrasound scans.
ETA This is Nic's post about the ultrasounds http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/its-starti-think.html
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tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
You see, I read it in the same vein as you but I have been told that my interpretation is wrong
No-one is implying anything. It's a fact. Some horses cannot go without shoes. Some owners will not go without shoes. Some can. Some will. Some do, some don't.
It is not a loaded statement. It IS a statement.
One that is not intended to pigeon-hole anyone.
Why do you feel so unhappy and take it so personally about people not shoeing their horses and calling it barefoot?
I take it personally that you think I "down do" people and call them "thick" when I don't. But, I can't see why you take a statement that has nothing to do with you as an individual so personally.
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Serephin
Well-Known Member
Wow, this is a long thread - I haven't read it all.
My horse is barefoot/unshod - has been for over a year - it took time for his feet to adjust and people couldn't understand what I was doing, why I didn't just slap shoes on when he was a bit footy, as it was easier, etc etc.
He is happy as larry in his bare feet - he is on a very low sugar diet and my farrier, yes, farrier, says he has lovely strong feet.
The thought of nailing metal to his feet seems alien to me now, and a bit crazy TBH. Plus whenever he claps eyes on the farrier van he gets nervy, and then he realises that he is only getting a trim and chills out again. What does that tell you about how they feel about getting shoes put on.
But obviously I am an evangelical nutter. Who knew.
My horse is barefoot/unshod - has been for over a year - it took time for his feet to adjust and people couldn't understand what I was doing, why I didn't just slap shoes on when he was a bit footy, as it was easier, etc etc.
He is happy as larry in his bare feet - he is on a very low sugar diet and my farrier, yes, farrier, says he has lovely strong feet.
The thought of nailing metal to his feet seems alien to me now, and a bit crazy TBH. Plus whenever he claps eyes on the farrier van he gets nervy, and then he realises that he is only getting a trim and chills out again. What does that tell you about how they feel about getting shoes put on.
But obviously I am an evangelical nutter. Who knew.
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MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Goldenstar Just to clarify, there is a difference between working one's horses unshod, (as mine are) and embracing the Barefoot lifestyle trend.
Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm than good. Some people give good advice, while others just look down on owners who choose to shoe or rant about farriers.
It's this attitude that I find bullying.
I prefer my working horses unshod, they manage well.
Why would I then be a critic of the BF lobby ? Because I loathe fanaticism.
It is a lifestyle choice, just as Parelli is, as opposed to ordinary mortals who use similar approaches as one aspect of training.
Obsession is never healthy in horsecare, keeping an open mind so there is always more than one tool in the box is pretty useful.
Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm than good. Some people give good advice, while others just look down on owners who choose to shoe or rant about farriers.
It's this attitude that I find bullying.
I prefer my working horses unshod, they manage well.
Why would I then be a critic of the BF lobby ? Because I loathe fanaticism.
It is a lifestyle choice, just as Parelli is, as opposed to ordinary mortals who use similar approaches as one aspect of training.
Obsession is never healthy in horsecare, keeping an open mind so there is always more than one tool in the box is pretty useful.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
iirc lameness examinations were carried out by an independent vet before and after treatment. Obviously unfortunately this is inherently subjective.
My thought is that the liverpool vet is perhaps waiting until the numbers increase as the more animals the greater the weight of the results and it might go some way to reduce the subjectivity. ie, they don't currently think that the study would be accepted as a paper.. I don't know if they have tried.. it would be nice if it could at least be a short communication somewhere.
Sadly noone has/will currently provide the money to MRI scan post treatment to observe any changes, and owners aren't particularly bothered if their horse is sound.
My vets were certainly reasonably positive so I think it is being taken up more. Mine said had had previous success for navi, not for DJD but I was welcome to try it.
fwiw I also used to think that CP et al. were being rather dismissive/acusatory about owners not being able to provide/willing to provide what would be required and certainly argued with them about it in days gone by. I get what they mean now though
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
LOL ! Who says they offend me ? Rather akin to a fly landing on my arm. A small irritation.
quirky
Well-Known Member
tallyho! *yawn* There is no way anybody can have a civil discussion with you as you seem to feel persecuted, when actually it is you who is rude and inflammatory.
"Pick fights", to quote you - you must have led a seriously sheltered life if you to perceive an internet discussion a fight
Anyway, never the twain shall meet and all that. I'd like to say it's been a pleasure but
ETS
Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.
Where on earth has the bullying card come from? I can't see the word until you have used it here.
I rest my case about being inflammatory
"Pick fights", to quote you - you must have led a seriously sheltered life if you to perceive an internet discussion a fight
Anyway, never the twain shall meet and all that. I'd like to say it's been a pleasure but
ETS
Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.
Where on earth has the bullying card come from? I can't see the word until you have used it here.
I rest my case about being inflammatory
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mystiandsunny
Well-Known Member
I wonder if it's people coming at this from a different viewpoint. Most ponies I knew as a child weren't shod. The farrier trimmed them as needed and their hooves were rock hard - on a diet of pretty much just grass. There weren't all these sweet mollassed feeds, alfalfa chop and that sort of thing around then. They were worked harder than most ponies I see today, lived out, and were happy and healthy.
From that standpoint, I've shod what needed it, and not what didn't. Diets all round are the same. Mostly just grass, with a handful of beet with supps. Works from the TB to the Native ponies. I have one that's shod all round, one shod in front, the rest not shod (and the TB's one of those - her hooves are good enough, so why not?). No fancy supps, no agonising over what minerals they do/don't have, any of that. They live out, are ridden 6 days a week, go hacking without issues, etc. I don't get the hype tbh. The old way was to put shoes on if the horse/pony needed them. It doesn't make financial sense to shoe something that doesn't need to be shod, let alone any other consideration!
From that standpoint, I've shod what needed it, and not what didn't. Diets all round are the same. Mostly just grass, with a handful of beet with supps. Works from the TB to the Native ponies. I have one that's shod all round, one shod in front, the rest not shod (and the TB's one of those - her hooves are good enough, so why not?). No fancy supps, no agonising over what minerals they do/don't have, any of that. They live out, are ridden 6 days a week, go hacking without issues, etc. I don't get the hype tbh. The old way was to put shoes on if the horse/pony needed them. It doesn't make financial sense to shoe something that doesn't need to be shod, let alone any other consideration!