Thought on whips?

When you consider what horses inflict upon each other, I hardly think a tap to reinforce a lighter aid in bullish moments of CBA on the horse's part, is bad horsemanship or cruel.

I might pick up a schooling whip with one of mine if he's being a little lazy, but merely carrying it is normally enough to galvanise him.

Lucky folks who have such willing and conscientious horses who tune in 100% from the minute the rider gets on to the minute they get off. Personally, I feel THAT mental strain to be as much in need of a break as the physical side, during work.

They are essential when hacking out for emegency 'listen to me' situations before all is lost (though it is debatable whether a horse in evolutionary flight mode is open to persuasion) Also, as others have pointed out, for deterring drivers form passing too close/repeating near-misses by waving it, handle out at them. If it hits the vehicle, well, they were too blinking close...
 
brighteyes said:
When you consider what horses inflict upon each other, I hardly think a tap to reinforce a lighter aid in bullish moments of CBA on the horse's part, is bad horsemanship or cruel.
Click to expand...
I'm always wary of the "horses do worse things to each other argument" because it has been used to justify quite harsh treatment. However, I would be inclined to place a 'tap' (if that's indeed all it is) at the low end of the severity spectrum.

I might pick up a schooling whip with one of mine if he's being a little lazy, but merely carrying it is normally enough to galvanise him.
Click to expand...
Why do you think it has that effect on him?
 
When you consider what horses inflict upon each other, I hardly think a tap to reinforce a lighter aid in bullish moments of CBA on the horse's part, is bad horsemanship or cruel.

i agree 100% people treat horses like a dog or cat, they are huge strong animals that kick and bite each other naturally, we are nothing in comparison! I dont agree with hurting the horse of cause! I love my lad! but a smack to keep him in-line isnt going to harm him, if anything its more dangerous to the horse to have them dis-respect you and be bardgy and bad mannered. If he got free or say wont go forward in a cruital moment on the roads because he is busy nappy or arguing about going off your leg, it could end badly! If i put my leg on i expect a reaction! Same with anything, if im leading him, he does as his told, its for my safety and his.
 
fburton said:
I'm always wary of the "horses do worse things to each other argument" because it has been used to justify quite harsh treatment. However, I would be inclined to place a 'tap' (if that's indeed all it is) at the low end of the severity spectrum.


Why do you think it has that effect on him?
Click to expand...

I was balancing a tap (as a more defined aid than a squeeze) and comparing the 'pain effect' likely felt on the skin with a sharp nip or even that mutual grooming they seem to so enjoy)

The pony I sometimes carry a whip in the school with, can be a lazy so-and-so once he has come out and finished pratting about being silly and spooky, all of which I deal with patiently as he is a bright character and not dangerously naughty. He has a completely different breeding/work ethic to all the others, for whom anything more than normal leg is not necessary. He has had the 'squeeze, click, tap' training and is inherently idle unless it suits him. Unless I have it wrong and all horses are born biddable, obedient and attuned all the time?

Funny how out on the beach or anywhere fun we are completely forward. Sadly, sometimes it has to be the school and sometimes he really isn't inclined to be in there. In short, he's a little **** on occasions. And no, he isn't sick or lame or anything but unarsed.

I'll report back if tonight is a 'disinclined' night and, heaven forfend, I pick up the schoolie (if I can find it) ...

Or did you want me to say I have battered him to within an inch of his life so he is terrified of it? :confused:
 
Billy the kid said:
i agree 100% people treat horses like a dog or cat, they are huge strong animals that kick and bite each other naturally, we are nothing in comparison! I dont agree with hurting the horse of cause! I love my lad! but a smack to keep him in-line isnt going to harm him, if anything its more dangerous to the horse to have them dis-respect you and be bardgy and bad mannered. If he got free or say wont go forward in a cruital moment on the roads because he is busy nappy or arguing about going off your leg, it could end badly! If i put my leg on i expect a reaction! Same with anything, if im leading him, he does as his told, its for my safety and his.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone here is saying we should treat horses like dogs or cat (though I dare say a few people do). Yes, horses can kick and bite, but they are also capable of amazing sensitivity and can, for instance, detect a fly landing on their skin. That potential sensitivity can be utilised in their training.

By all means wallop a horse if it's the only way to avoid someone getting hurt or killed. You won't be criticized for doing whatever it takes to keep everyone safe in an emergency situation. What might raise eyebrows, however, is routine use of a whip, or indeed a hand, to smack in day-to-day handling. That merely shows a lack of training which should be addressed. It is almost always possible to teach a horse to respond to light cues, although it is much easier if the horse hasn't already become deadened by heavy ones. There is little excuse for bad manners or barginess if the handler or rider has had the time and opportunity to correct these faults.
 
brighteyes said:
Or did you want me to say I have battered him to within an inch of his life so he is terrified of it? :confused:
Click to expand...
No, of course not - your answer is perfectly reasonable. I just wanted to know what you thought was the reason for his change in attitude knowing that you are carrying a whip.
 
fburton said:
I don't think anyone here is saying we should treat horses like dogs or cat (though I dare say a few people do). Yes, horses can kick and bite, but they are also capable of amazing sensitivity and can, for instance, detect a fly landing on their skin. That potential sensitivity can be utilised in their training.

By all means wallop a horse if it's the only way to avoid someone getting hurt or killed. You won't be criticized for doing whatever it takes to keep everyone safe in an emergency situation. What might raise eyebrows, however, is routine use of a whip, or indeed a hand, to smack in day-to-day handling. That merely shows a lack of training which should be addressed. It is almost always possible to teach a horse to respond to light cues, although it is much easier if the horse hasn't already become deadened by heavy ones. There is little excuse for bad manners or barginess if the handler or rider has had the time and opportunity to correct these faults.
Click to expand...


my problem was billy was hand reared by his breader, and a tad spoilt to put it nicely! He is lovely when he is doing something he wants, but when its something he doesnt like!!! your in trouble!! the legs would be out, the bite, the head butt!

so yes he got walloped a few times! surprise surprise... doesnt do it anymore! Really he shouldnt have got like that in the first place, but that was out of my control. Its trying to teach a 5YO strong headed male his wrong and am right which is now my job!:D

BTW if i put him out in the school or field he follows he everywhere, comes running when i call him, so he cant hate me that much!

also never had a complaint from anyone about over using any aids, with any horse at anytime so again cant be that bad! Maybe your thinking of someone with the whip upside down giving repeated thrashings!! :confused:
 
Billy the kid- just to give you my daughters thoughts on ponies like your horse. She's 7 btw, but ridden regularly from almost birth, & never on typical kids kick along types, she's used to responsive ponies, although I do challenge her now. She recently rode a pony very similar to yours, regular rider does same as you. Except pony club kicks not spurs. And being older, its far more ingrained. Daughter wouldn't know where to start with a pc kick, & never rode with a whip. Her aids on said pony got zilch response. She was clearly thinking about how to proceed, then said 'mummy, can you canter past please?' Pony walked slightly more forward. 'do it again mummy'. Next time she got a pretty decent walk. Within 10 mins it was trotting nicely along. I later asked her what she'd do long term if she had to school it. She said she'd get it moving all the time, not just riding. When it was moving on its way to a feed, she'd teach it that walk meant forwards walk, not slow coach. And she'd ride it with me, & when it trotted, she'd teach it trot on with a voice command. Then when it moved forwards always, she'd teach it nice squeezes, just like a young pony. Now she's 7, so its not a plan she's learnt from her own vast experience. It's just because that's more my way, than kicking & hitting, & she's thought about it from a different angle. And I have done the same with other dead to the leg horses, it does actually work. Get him thinking forwards, rather than trying to physically move him forwards.
Click to expand...

I want to give your daughter a hug :D What a horsewoman she's going to turn out to be!

Yes, there are different ways to achieve the same ends. But they all come with "add ons". Humans and horses are motivated in the same way - they'll do the bare minimum needed to stop something they don't like (kicking, tapping, smacking). And they'll do as much as they can to make sure the good stuff happens again - and that'll be Littlelegs' daughter's pony. The rider might be young, but she clearly understands motivation better than a lot of adults ;)
 
Brightbay said:
I want to give your daughter a hug :D What a horsewoman she's going to turn out to be!

Yes, there are different ways to achieve the same ends. But they all come with "add ons". Humans and horses are motivated in the same way - they'll do the bare minimum needed to stop something they don't like (kicking, tapping, smacking). And they'll do as much as they can to make sure the good stuff happens again - and that'll be Littlelegs' daughter's pony. The rider might be young, but she clearly understands motivation better than a lot of adults ;)
Click to expand...

o good lord iv been out smarted by at 7YO!!!:eek: let me know if she still rides daily at 24.

THE SHAME!!!!

My horse gets motivation too, trust me. His a happy chappy! :rolleyes:

also just a thought....... what would the little girl have done if the other horse cantering past hadnt of motivated the pony into being more forward? what if it was completely egnoring everything around and uninterested in the other horses? Sometimes the whip is what is needed! I tried all the other ways first to give him a chance, the bottom line is he was taking the pee out of me! Now when i get on he just does as his told.
 
Last edited:
Colby said:
I would be intrigued as to whether anyone using a whip had tried natural horsemanship and then gone back to using a whip,spurs etc
Click to expand...

I don't know what brand of natural horsemanship you are thinking of, but all that I know of use whips (e.g. carrot sticks and similar) and when the rider is more advanced they allow the use of spurs. Normally rowel spurs because NH has it's roots in vaquero horsemanship.
Some branches of NH teach people to be quite crude in their use of their sticks, others would be more along the lines of what I'm describing.
 
Billy the kid, my whole point is that she is 7, & while she's good at the end of the day, in terms of thinking out how she rides, she's only 7. My point was not at all she must be a better rider than you, just that she'd thought of it from a different angle, based on her experiences. Eg her own rather lively pony prances if someone blasts past, therefore she applied the same logic to the lazy pony. Sorry if you thought I was negatively comparing your riding ability. And if it hadn't moved when I cantered past, then it would have been taken on a group hack & galloped past en masse, or hunting. Neither of which she mentioned, that's what I would have suggested.
 
What we have to remember is

That all horses are different.

and

That not everyone is a good enough rider to be able to get the message across to the horse in a feather light manner

I bet we have all been in the situation where a more experienced person has got on the horse/pony we were riding because it wasn't co-operating and seen the immediate response from the horse/pony and the effortless way the person has ridden said horse/pony.

Horses are all different so are riders.
 
i always carry one (ex racer tb chestnut mare :p) so can be sharp when the mood suits her

the only time she has a tap on the bottom is if she decides to spin on a road/or backs into or spins into other horses when hacking. She gets a sharp tap to remind her to get a grip and we move on from it, and i always feel guilty afterwards lol i never over use it mine is purely there for when she is deaf to my leg & voice
 
Maybe I've been quite lucky but I generally hate the use of whips as disipline as such - you can see the horses at competitions who are used to getting a beating as they start freaking out waiting for it if they refuse a fence for example - they still refused the fence though didnt they even though they knew they'd get a smack for it so IMO it doesn't work anyway. Yes you get the odd horse who is just taking the pee like napping on a hack or something but the vast majority of the time I believe its the riders error or the horse is simply being asked to do something he can't and in those cases its simply cruel. Anyone who has to beat their horse up to jump a course of jumps for example does not have a happy, confident horse and the only person to blame is the rider.

I usually carry a whip, probably more out of habit but I only use it as a backup to my leg and its literally a tickle with a schooling whip, my horses have never been smacked properly so this is more than enough. I just feel that you shouldn't ever HAVE to use a whip properly to pelt a horse, somethings gone wrong to get to that stage.
 
We were always give a whip to carry and in case of an emergency but I'm not a fan. My son thinks they are for moving brambles out of the way or pretending to be a knight :o I'd rather like to keep it that way :D
 
Well I always carry a whip. It serves as a prodding device, a back scratcher, helps herd pheasants and chickens, a flag and it reminds my horse that she has a job to do and she can jolly well get on and do it instead of having epic tantrums on a whim :)
 
Alyth said:
Ibblebibble.....your post is the type of post that completely turns me off reading this website at all....no consideration or even thought put into your answer at all....not even thinking about the other persons point of view....let alone any debate worth consideration...
Click to expand...

I'll have you know a lot of thought went into that post!, took me ages to find the yoda convertor:rolleyes:
i have heard plenty of PR's POV before and debating doesn't interest him, he believes himself to be superior to everyone and only comes on to call everyone else inadequate riders without ever offering real advice on how to improve.

my thoughts on whips? as long as it is not used in anger or as punishment then i don't have a problem with them,if you do use it that way then you deserve to have it shoved sideways somewhere the sun don't shine! do i use one? no. don't need to and can't actually carry one because it plays havoc with my carpal tunnel .that's pretty much my thoughts on whips.
 
Ibblebibble said:
I'll have you know a lot of thought went into that post!, took me ages to find the yoda convertor:rolleyes:
i have heard plenty of PR's POV before and debating doesn't interest him, he believes himself to be superior to everyone and only comes on to call everyone else inadequate riders without ever offering real advice on how to improve.

my thoughts on whips? as long as it is not used in anger or as punishment then i don't have a problem with them,if you do use it that way then you deserve to have it shoved sideways somewhere the sun don't shine! do i use one? no. don't need to and can't actually carry one because it plays havoc with my carpal tunnel .that's pretty much my thoughts on whips.
Click to expand...

Good thoughts on whips you have.

Sorry about your wrist.:)
 
Tinypony said:
I don't know what brand of natural horsemanship you are thinking of, but all that I know of use whips (e.g. carrot sticks and similar) and when the rider is more advanced they allow the use of spurs. Normally rowel spurs because NH has it's roots in vaquero horsemanship.
Some branches of NH teach people to be quite crude in their use of their sticks, others would be more along the lines of what I'm describing.
Click to expand...


Yes I wasnt talking about a brand in particular, is why I said natural horsemanship rather than any individuals name as Im not a devoute follower of anybody, just take what feels or seems the best way.
Im pretty open about things and will agree with something until I dont agree:p

Who uses rowel spurs? do not agree with using spurs unless yours and your horses lives depended on it.

Upto now I have not come across seeing anybody using sticks to smack the animal with and would be interested to know who condones that type of behaviour and sells it as natural horsemanship.
 
Colby said:
Yes I wasnt talking about a brand in particular, is why I said natural horsemanship rather than any individuals name as Im not a devoute follower of anybody, just take what feels or seems the best way.
Im pretty open about things and will agree with something until I dont agree:p

Who uses rowel spurs? do not agree with using spurs unless yours and your horses lives depended on it.

Upto now I have not come across seeing anybody using sticks to smack the animal with and would be interested to know who condones that type of behaviour and sells it as natural horsemanship.
Click to expand...

I'm not a devotee follower of anybody either, but I suppose I know quite a lot about the sort of trainers that people lump into the Natural Horsemanship camp.

I'll just mention the main one, which of course is Parelli. Yes, they do make contact with the sticks in a manner that I think would qualify as a "smack". Pat Parelli himself rides in rowel spurs. Although... when you say that you don't agree with them unless lives depend on it, I'm not sure that you understand the action of a rowel spur. I know they look scarey, but they don't dig into the horse in the way that a spur we see on a dressage rider would. They roll along the skin, so arguably are gentler. But, as I said somewhere above, it all depends on the rider. I don't consider that I have enough control of my legs to ride in spurs, but if I did, I'd rather gently roll a rowel spur than give my horse the "smacks" that I see routinely dished out when people think their horses are being "naughty" or otherwise doing what they don't want.
I've got "NH'y" sticks in two lengths (shock horror!). They are lighter than the Parelli ones, which is handy as I have RSI. I haven't smacked a horse with a stick since I stopped being a Parelli student though, I use the sticks to touch my horse. Or sometimes I turn them round and gently bounce the rubbery end up and down on bums. :-))
 
Tnavas said:
What we have to remember is

That all horses are different.

and

That not everyone is a good enough rider to be able to get the message across to the horse in a feather light manner

I bet we have all been in the situation where a more experienced person has got on the horse/pony we were riding because it wasn't co-operating and seen the immediate response from the horse/pony and the effortless way the person has ridden said horse/pony.

Horses are all different so are riders.
Click to expand...


All horses are different but I have yet to see a horse that did not benefit being ridden in a lighter way.

I have been in that situation and I saw the fault in myself and as an indication that I needed to improve my riding, not that I needed to whip the horse or give it a big kick.

I personally just see it as an indication of stupidity and obviously upbringing if somebody is aggressive verbally or physically towards other adults, children, animals etc they have control and anger issues which are being subjected onto other beings. If they took a step back and really thought about what they are doing and why they might see themselves different and realise that they are the problem, not everything else. :(

I guess if the individual sees a horse as a dumb 1000lb animal that needs to be controlled then they will carry on with those methods.

If they see a horse that is not wanting to move as lazy and stubborn then they will carry on with those methods.

If they see a horse is being flighty and uncontrollable, then yes they will carry on with their methods.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top