Thought on whips?

[Pale Rider]

Playing devils advocate here, Pale Rider is right in that there is a method of riding I know as thought riding, I believe that is what he means, my OH used to compete in x country, his anglo arab was a handful but their bond was so strong, my OH just asked with his mind and copper responded. I was sceptical when told, amazed when shown and blown away when I tried it myself, my OH was doing this 30yrs ago so hardly new age ideas.
If I am looking at a new horse, I say hello there in my mind and the horse responds with an ear turned to me or moves forward that's a plus.
I know it sounds crazy, but some, not all horses are tuned in to thoughts.

Ingela Larsson Smith is probably the best example of this.

 

[Tnavas]

Just because people compete on an international level doesn't mean that much. You saw the Olympic's, some awful displays of horsemanship. (Carl and Charlotte not included in that by the way).

PLease advise when and where thes 'Awful dispays of horsemanship' occured as I watched every bit of the equestrian events and didnot see any poor horsemanship.

 

[PapaFrita]

Now, now, use your energy rather than resorting to lashing out.

LOL
"Feeeel the force, Luke"

 

[Scarlett]

IMO the correct use of a whip is a skill that every rider should be taught just as we are taught to rise in trot. My horse has a job, he is required to carry me in various situations and carry out various tasks like hacking or jumping, for that I school him correctly and make sure he is able to do what he is asked through correct schooling/feeding/management, when I ask something I believe is fair and I don't get the correct response then I am perfectly within my rights to tap/smack/wallop as required. That doesn't mean I beat him on a regular basis, infact I ride less with a stick now than I ever have, but it does mean I have it there as an option should the need arise.

I would always prefer to see a horse given a smack for disobedience or a reluctance to go forward than have someone sat there kicking at his ribs or pulling on his mouth.

This 'touchy, feely' horsemanship is all well and good but sadly doesn't always apply in the real world.

 

[xspiralx]

IMO the correct use of a whip is a skill that every rider should be taught just as we are taught to rise in trot. My horse has a job, he is required to carry me in various situations and carry out various tasks like hacking or jumping, for that I school him correctly and make sure he is able to do what he is asked through correct schooling/feeding/management, when I ask something I believe is fair and I don't get the correct response then I am perfectly within my rights to tap/smack/wallop as required. That doesn't mean I beat him on a regular basis, infact I ride less with a stick now than I ever have, but it does mean I have it there as an option should the need arise.

I would always prefer to see a horse given a smack for disobedience or a reluctance to go forward than have someone sat there kicking at his ribs or pulling on his mouth.

This 'touchy, feely' horsemanship is all well and good but sadly doesn't always apply in the real world.

But don't you realise how cruel that is??

I think tomorrow you should chant some soothing hymns to Indy before you ride - then he will certainly feel your energy and anticipate your every command before you even think it yourself

 

[Amaranta]

Playing devils advocate here, Pale Rider is right in that there is a method of riding I know as thought riding, I believe that is what he means, my OH used to compete in x country, his anglo arab was a handful but their bond was so strong, my OH just asked with his mind and copper responded. I was sceptical when told, amazed when shown and blown away when I tried it myself, my OH was doing this 30yrs ago so hardly new age ideas.
If I am looking at a new horse, I say hello there in my mind and the horse responds with an ear turned to me or moves forward that's a plus.
I know it sounds crazy, but some, not all horses are tuned in to thoughts.

No but they are supremely good at reading body language, there is no thought control, a horse can read us far better than we can read them. Our horses pick up the slightest nuances in our bodies which is why we can ride and be around them in the first place.

 

[Montyforever]

I had to give my old pony a sharp jab on his bit to get him out of the way of a speeding van. Would have been much more effective and nicer for him if i could have given him a tap with a whip.

 

[Tnavas]

IMO the correct use of a whip is a skill that every rider should be taught just as we are taught to rise in trot. My horse has a job, he is required to carry me in various situations and carry out various tasks like hacking or jumping, for that I school him correctly and make sure he is able to do what he is asked through correct schooling/feeding/management, when I ask something I believe is fair and I don't get the correct response then I am perfectly within my rights to tap/smack/wallop as required. That doesn't mean I beat him on a regular basis, infact I ride less with a stick now than I ever have, but it does mean I have it there as an option should the need arise.

I would always prefer to see a horse given a smack for disobedience or a reluctance to go forward than have someone sat there kicking at his ribs or pulling on his mouth.

This 'touchy, feely' horsemanship is all well and good but sadly doesn't always apply in the real world.

Agree wholeheartedly

At my riding school every rider carries a whip from day one - they are taught HOW to carry it, HOW to use it WHERE to use it and WHEN to use it.

I say it with pride - I had lovely free moving obedient ponies that were attentive to their riders, and a joy to ride. They weren't beaten or kicked painfully in the ribs. My riders had lovely positions and were effective because that was what they were taught from the start.
1 Leg aid - no response! so you weren't listening? 2nd leg aid here is what I want you to do, no response! I expect you to listen to my instructions 3rd leg aid reinforced with a tap behind the leg OK we have action. Doesn't take ponies long to know to obey the 1st or 2nd leg aid.

 

[Scarlett]

But don't you realise how cruel that is??

I think tomorrow you should chant some soothing hymns to Indy before you ride - then he will certainly feel your energy and anticipate your every command before you even think it yourself

Only if you do it with Fallon...! 1,2,3.... ooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Daytona]

Nae a great fan of whips.

But I guess there is a time and a place for everything , lucky for me none of my horses have required one, and hopefully it stays that way.

The odds time I have tried to carry one I found it too uncomfortable to hold as not used to it.

Don't care if I other others with them as long as they not beating the poop outta there horse, same goes for spurs.

I seen a girl take her 5 year old to its 1st SJ comp, she walked into ring and headed up to start, tried to make her horse walk between two wings which were quite close , the poor baby just stood there looking scared at the gap, so instead of doing the right thing and just walking round the other way, remember this is a baby at his 1st show.

The stupid bi*** started booting him with her spurs he never responded, fix to the ground with fear, she then proceeded to take feet out stirrups turn spurs inwards and kick has hard as she could for nearly 2 mins before then poor horse panicked and ran through the gap, a lady next to me watching actually walked out as she was disgusted - I wanted to grab that girl off her horse and punch her lights out, she is now a ex friend of mine thank god.

That's the tyre of person that should never have whip or spurs or have a horse tbh

 

[xspiralx]

Only if you do it with Fallon...! 1,2,3.... ooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Let's get some scented candles for the yard - I'm sure that the right combination of soothing lavender and ginseng will give Fallon the desire to go perfectly straight down the side of the school, without me needing to use my leg or ANYTHING! We've clearly been missing a trick this whole time

 

[Scarlett]

Agree wholeheartedly

At my riding school every rider carries a whip from day one - they are taught HOW to carry it, HOW to use it WHERE to use it and WHEN to use it.

I say it with pride - I had lovely free moving obedient ponies that were attentive to their riders, and a joy to ride. They weren't beaten or kicked painfully in the ribs. My riders had lovely positions and were effective because that was what they were taught from the start.
1 Leg aid - no response! so you weren't listening? 2nd leg aid here is what I want you to do, no response! I expect you to listen to my instructions 3rd leg aid reinforced with a tap behind the leg OK we have action. Doesn't take ponies long to know to obey the 1st or 2nd leg aid.

Exactly! I had to get on one of the horses in one of my lesson today to shoe the rider how to use the stick. I tapped him firmly twice, he responded beautifully, rider got back on and he was much better for her, plus she then had the confidence to know when to tap him.

It's neither rocket science or abuse, it's a form of common sense thats seems to be long lost in the horse world. IMO there are a lot of riders out there who are being trained to ride badly by horses who just need to go off the leg correctly, and if rectifying that might involve a smack then I cannot see the problem. A horse going correctly off the leg is so much more than just a ridden obedience issue, IMO, it's something that carries through to all aspects of it's life, inc being handled on the ground. A horse with no respect for you when you're on it will more than likely have no respect for you on the ground either.

 

[Scarlett]

Let's get some scented candles for the yard - I'm sure that the right combination of soothing lavender and ginseng will give Fallon the desire to go perfectly straight down the side of the school, without me needing to use my leg or ANYTHING! We've clearly been missing a trick this whole time

Suddenly it's all so clear... it's obviously the next step after being barefoot and bitless, I knew this would happen!

 

[thehorsephotographer]

Putting aside all the snidey comments and jibes this I have found an interesting discussion.

When I was younger I always rode with a whip - and didn't hesitate to use it. If the horse was reluctant to go forward or behaving badly a quick tap of the whip would, as most of you say, move it forward. I don't ever remember using it in anger and I considered it an essential "tool".

Then I had the priviledge of spending a period of time in the US on a working ranch riding mainly quarter horses and paint horses. Didn't consider riding with a whip there - no-one did. We went on the roads no problem. We went from standing to canter no problem. We had rattle snakes appear up from the grass no problem. The horses were so responsive and maybe my riding style different. All of them neck reined with the lightest of touches. If I wanted their hind to move in one direction or the other I would simply move whichever leg accordingly. No kicking - just the lightest of touch/squeeze with one leg backwards, the other forward (my legs this is) and the reins rested whichever way I wanted to go and we went. We could literally turn on a sixpence. Whichever horse I was riding. I also used the voice.

Since riding here again I have worked with my own horses to achieve the same results and whilst we're not yet (it's a work in process) by any means as polished we are getting there.

I ride out with a lady who has a very nappy cob x. He naps, she whips him and he goes in the direction she wants. But when he's napping he's mostly scared. He's 6 years old and very green. So I have been talking to her about using her legs in the same way as described above and her voice and trying to avoid using the whip - especially in situations where he is genuinely frightened. It's a scary thing for her to take on because at times he will see something scary and back her into the road possibly into the path as you say of oncoming traffic or worse still traffic from behind.

I noticed as time has gone on that he responds to my voice even though I am not his rider and on another horse. So he naps, goes backwards or whatever and I tell him what a wuss he is and to walk on and he does. So we've been experimenting - since she is not confident without resorting to her whip to get her out of trouble - with swopping horses. I've ridden him and she's ridden my lady.

He still naps but not as much and when he does it's a quick shy and on we go. Things he would plant at (he has his regular planting spots) I talk to him and ride him forwards (without kicking) and he keeps going. If he is fearful of something and starts backing into the road or potentially a ditch (there's a few on our hacks!) I will give him a big kick or use my voice and he goes forward. Really I don't give him any choice but to move forward because this is not just what I expect from him but what I demand and he knows this.

Yet out of the two of us I would say his rider is the better rider - we just have different styles. Technically I would say she's much better than I and if he were to start say broncing I'm sure he'd have me off much quicker than I.

Whilst we've been changing over after the first couple of weeks we've started alternating back again so she's riding him more than me now but using the same tecnhiques as I do. He's a different horse with her. Very rarely does she lift her whip to him now. He's forward going, enjoying himself, ears pricked.

I carry a whip. I've never once used it on my mare with the exception of swotting a fly from a place I couldn't reach. My mare is quite new to me and we have a lot to learn together but I would say she understands me and looks after me. A couple of weeks ago I fell off her. Total freak accident when she slipped and lost her footing. She looked at me on the ground and I swear you could almost hear her saying "What are you doing down there? You're not supposed to be down there...." total shock for both of us!

The real turning point for me regarding the use of the whip however was when last year I went to photograph a little girl and her first pony. Her friend had come along also with her pony to the photo-shoot to watch. The friend began showing off but her ponie's saddle was one of the worst fitting saddles I've ever seen and the pony was clearly in pain. Anyway the friend talked to me about her naughty pony and proceeded to beat ten shades of hell out of it with a whip because it would not comply. I had a little talk to her and showed her how she was hurting him and the saddle was hurting him and that was why he was behaving the way he was. She proceeded to tell me how they had bought him from a riding school along with the saddle and how she'd shown him and none of the judges had said anything so I must be wrong, but then admitted he had put on an awful lot of weight since she got him...

It didn't stop her beating him next time round. I've also been exhibiting at shows and seen little kids beating their ponies because they didn't win whatever class they were in. You have to ask what exactly are we teaching our kids? There is a better way.

 

[Littlelegs]

Tnavas, I'm assuming you don't literally mean at your rs people carry a whip from day one?

 

[Pale Rider]

The real turning point for me regarding the use of the whip however was when last year I went to photograph a little girl and her first pony. Her friend had come along also with her pony to the photo-shoot to watch. The friend began showing off but her ponie's saddle was one of the worst fitting saddles I've ever seen and the pony was clearly in pain. Anyway the friend talked to me about her naughty pony and proceeded to beat ten shades of hell out of it with a whip because it would not comply. I had a little talk to her and showed her how she was hurting him and the saddle was hurting him and that was why he was behaving the way he was. She proceeded to tell me how they had bought him from a riding school along with the saddle and how she'd shown him and none of the judges had said anything so I must be wrong, but then admitted he had put on an awful lot of weight since she got him...

It didn't stop her beating him next time round. I've also been exhibiting at shows and seen little kids beating their ponies because they didn't win whatever class they were in. You have to ask what exactly are we teaching our kids? There is a better way.

Well these little girls grow up and post on the Horse and Hound Forum and they haven't changed at all.

 

[Trinity Fox]

Wow long thread, I have never used a whip and I break lot's of horses and my dad races point to point he does carry one in races. I have to say it is not a case of I would not use one we honestly were not taught to ride with one.

I think I would find it an issue as have never done so, I honestly could not give an honest opinion as to how helpful it is with horses as I do not know.

I do think you can ride well without them, can you do better with I do not really know as have never used one, I suspect I would find it hard to work with one at my age as I have never done so.

I do not even use one for lunging we are very forceful and loud so could have the same effect as a whip I have no doubt.

 

[Batgirl]

Thehorsephotographer, how do you think it would translate into riding in an outline for dressage and doing canter pirouttes etc? (genuinely, is that what you are doing with your horses now)

And Pale Rider, if you are excusing Carl and Charlotte then you are rather contradictory, they both use spurs and whips.

 

[TrasaM]

Putting aside all the snidey comments and jibes this I have found an interesting discussion.


It didn't stop her beating him next time round. I've also been exhibiting at shows and seen little kids beating their ponies because they didn't win whatever class they were in. You have to ask what exactly are we teaching our kids? There is a better way.

I so agree. I took up riding as an adult and once I started to get the hang of it I started to question what I was being taught. It was very much the boot it or use the crop to get forward motion. There was nothing about what my body was doing or my hands that might be blocking forward movement. As an adult however I did not take what I was being told as gospel so I looked for an alternative. A child will probably not do this and will accept what they are being told is right. Pale Rider, you said about the right teacher coming along when the time was right..so it was for me.
I did find an alternate method where Respect for the horse comes first, with a wonderful coach who takes the time to explain. Please note he's very manly and does not waft lavender oil about either
It is possible to ride well with the gentlest of aids and it is the best feeling having your horse moving lightly as though you are one unit and not having a constant struggle to turn, go, yield or stop. What I was being shown prior to this was effective but there was a crudeness to it and a disregard for the horse which did not sit well with me. As the old saying goes "if you ain't tried it, don't knock it"

 

[111ex111]

i've never come across someone who disagrees so much with carrying a whip, i've always carried one. also, its good for moving overgrown branches out the way on hacks

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Im going to get shot here BUT decided I will have a little input anyway.

I have no issues with the use of a whip when used correctly.

I rarely carry one, only in the ring (sjing, on a horse that may require one) and when schooling young horses.

I have no issue with three down the belly (allowed in BS rules btw!) after a stop or a big spook before a fence. I have no issues with a smack behind the leg on a nappy horse that has ignored the leg when asked to go forward.

I dont like kids smacking every stride on the neck and flapping around though.

 

[Tnavas]

Tnavas, I'm assuming you don't literally mean at your rs people carry a whip from day one?

Yes littlelegs - they do

If they have private lunge lessons to start with then they don't until they come off the lunge.

 

[Pale Rider]

I've never said anything about spurs, I don't think they are the same thing at all.
Yes they do carry whips, so not perfect, lol.

 

[Tnavas]

Pale Rider - you've still not answered my question as to who gave 'Awful dispays of horsemanship' I watched every bit of the equestrian events and didn't see any poor horsemanship. Saw some mistakes but not poor horsemanship

 

[Pale Rider]

Three down the belly, may be allowed, but I find it abhorrent.

The daft thing is you all want swift responses to soft aids, but you are teaching the opposite.

 

[Goldenstar]

I always carry one , the last horse I bought was whip shy we just always carried a whip every interaction with him the whip was there leading , it was in the stable with us during grooming we just never used it and ridden ( it did cause tension at first the horse was afraid of them. ) that horse is totally unafraid of whips now and you can use them as at training aid as you would on any horse.
In fact I think confronting the issue was a big help in establishing trust with him.
Carrying a whip should trouble no horse it's misusing them that's the issue.

 

[Pale Rider]

I don't think there was a member of the Dutch or German dressage team that didn't make me wince.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

PLease advise when and where thes 'Awful dispays of horsemanship' occured as I watched every bit of the equestrian events and didnot see any poor horsemanship.

Oh there was a bit about, the bint that got the individual dressage silver a prime example.


Anyway, as to the OP and the question of whips.
I carry one, I will use 1, I don't need to justify why.

 

[Tinsel Town]

I dont mind them if they are used CORRECTLY and at the right time. Which sadly most of the time this doesnt happen.

I dont carry or use a whip with Leo as he has clearly been beaten with one and is terrifed and tense if one comes near him which is so sad and upsets me to think my beloved horse has been hurt in the past

 

[Littlelegs]

Tnavas, so when they haven't even grasped the basic position, let alone an independent seat & the rights to the reins, & before they have any idea what the natural aids are, let alone correctly using them, they carry a whip too? I'm not picking an argument btw, or saying you allow beginners to beat ponies up with them, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is, & why you believe its best to do it that way round?
My own teaching philosophy is that nobody even gets to hold the reins, or use natural aids, let alone false aids until they have a completely independent seat. Then natural aids are learnt on a horse that doesn't need reminding to listen, only then would I want them on a more challenging pony/horse. ( not so much thinking in terms of rights/ wrongs of whips, just find different teaching philosophies interesting).