Thoughts about horses who won't lift hoof for cleaning [LONG]

[Keith_Beef]

I have a theory, and wonder if there is anything in it. Or maybe I've misunderstood the behaviour of a some of the horses I've ridden these last four years.

The problem is with getting a horse to lift its hoof for cleaning.

I've noticed this with a few, but I'll take two particular horses as being the most archetypical of what I've seen.

The first has now left our riding centre (back in mid to late September), a Norman Cob gelding of about sixteen hands. He arrived after having spent between six and twelve months out in a field, quite out of condition and a bit stubborn.

He didn't pick up his feet when in his stabling, and so all his straw was pushed away from the centre leaving the bare concrete, and piled up around the walls and under his automatic water trough.

At first, I had great difficulty getting him to lift his hooves for cleaning. He would refuse at first, then seem to try, but then put the hoof back down.

What I found for the front hooves was that if I gave him a strong nudge from my shoulder against his, as I run my hand down his leg, was that he'd put his weight on the other leg, then I could grab the feathering around the fetclock and with a kind of lifting, rolling movement get him to show the sole, while keeping just the tip (toe?) on the ground, and I put my shoulder under his, taking a bit of his weight, thinking that this would reassure him that he wasn't going to topple over. Then I could lift his hoof from the floor. After doing this a few Saturdays, reducing the support I was giving him, he started lifting the front leg high enough all by himself, not needing any support.

For the back hooves, I nudged my shoulder against his rump, pulled on the feathering and rolled the hoof, as for the front, but didn't support any of his weight (I don't know how I could have, anyway). And he got the message as for the front hooves, and started lifting his hooves for me just fine.

But even after the weeks of getting him used to lifting his hooves, I found I needed to always ask for a front hoof first. After either front hoof, I could then ask for the other front or for either back hoof. But if I asked for a back hoof right off the bat, he'd make a half-hearted attempt at it, give up and then step away from me.

I don't know the breed of the second horse, she's a mare of about sixteen and a half hands, a former horseball competitor at quite a high level (so I'm told), who is described as "permanently hormonal and difficult"; she doesn't play at all nicely with other horses and can be stroppy with people, too... She's threatened to bite me a few times while getting her kitted up, but once the saddle is in place she takes the bridle fairly well and after that she's a wonderful mount: easy to get warmed up, obedient and well behaved as long as kept well out of biting and kicking distance of the others in the arena.

She'll refuse to give a front hoof and step away from me. So I clip my hoof pick to my belt and get a brush, maybe brush her mane or tail, then ask for the hoof again. Sometimes she'll refuse again, so I let her move a bit more, maybe brush her, speak in a stern voice and tell her to stand still (doesn't seem to matter what language I speak to her in). I might have to repeat this once more but usually on the second or third time she'll give me a front hoof. After that, she'll give the second quite easily, although when putting either front hoof down, she'll wave it as if she's going to scratch at the floor before putting it down heavily. I don't know if that's a behaviour of showing displeasure...

Now I can move to a back hoof... She'll give me a back hoof (so long as I go straight to it and don't touch her anywhere on the leg below the hip, see below), and if I'm quick I can get hold and clean it, but I have only about five to twelve seconds before she seems to lose balance and topple to the side with the raised hoof. She seems to me borderline panicking, now: nostrils flared, eyes wide, head up. She'll stomp about a bit and calm down quickly enough, but after that, there's no chance of getting hold of either rear hoof.

Brushing her back legs is next to impossible. Any contact below the hip joint gets rewarded with a threat to kick, and sometimes she follows through. But she'll allow anyone to brush the straw out of her tail.

After a lesson with her a couple of weeks ago in a very wet arena, I took her to the shower to get all the sand off her, and she stood perfectly still for me, even as I pinched the end of the hose to get a stronger jet of water, and played the jet over the lowers parts of the legs and hooves... We had been told by the instructor to make sure that we cleaned the horses well, to avoid any more cases of what is called in French "gale de boue" (maybe rainscald or dermatophilosis in English, I've not found a good translation).

So this second horse seems to have the added complication of not wanting any contact on the lower pat of her hind legs. But both seem to me to have a fear of not being able to stand on three legs for any length of time without falling over. Now if I take a front hoof, the horse seems reassured that standing on three legs without falling over is indeed possible.

So that's a very long post, really to demonstrate how I got to the (possibly wrong) theory: horses are scared of falling over when asked to stand on three legs. This fear can explain why some horses refuse to give up a hoof for cleaning They need reassurance that it's possible.

 

[milliepops]

Bit of a glib comment. But the first thing that came to mind is... I bet they pick their feet up for the farrier

My newbie is a bit useless at this stuff. But my reading of *her* is completely different. She gets distracted and doesn't - yet - prioritise my instruction to lift her foot if there's something more interesting in sight... if she fidgets about she will lose her balance. It's my job to teach her to concentrate, not to prop her up :eek3:

ETA. Doubtless there are horses that find it hard to pick their feet up - those with lameness issues for example, but I'm assuming from your post about the horses being in work that this isn't the case

 

[Auslander]

Sorry - I agree with Milliepops. I have some who are less helpful about picking their feet up than others, but I regard it as bad manners, and they get a good prod if they don't pick up and stay up! I've got one who is a mild shiverer, and a couple with arthritic hocks - I give them a bit of time to find their comfy spot, but I still expect them to pick their feet up politely when I ask them to.

Are you sure you aren't trying to hold the leg up too high - that could be why you are finding that horses aren't able to balance properly when you pick their feet up.

 

[Keith_Beef]

Bit of a glib comment. But the first thing that came to mind is... I bet they pick their feet up for the farrier

My newbie is a bit useless at this stuff. But my reading of *her* is completely different. She gets distracted and doesn't - yet - prioritise my instruction to lift her foot if there's something more interesting in sight... if she fidgets about she will lose her balance. It's my job to teach her to concentrate, not to prop her up :eek3:

ETA. Doubtless there are horses that find it hard to pick their feet up - those with lameness issues for example, but I'm assuming from your post about the horses being in work that this isn't the case

The bit about the farrier is fair.
However

• some of the horses in our centre (and I don't remember if this is the case for the two I described) are only shod on the front hooves, and as I described those are easiest to lift
• the farrier almost certainly has someone at the horse's head holding it and keeping it calm
• since the change of management, the farrier comes round much less often, so I suppose the horses could have got out of the habit of lifting their hooves

Sorry - I agree with Milliepops. I have some who are less helpful about picking their feet up than others, but I regard it as bad manners, and they get a good prod if they don't pick up and stay up! I've got one who is a mild shiverer, and a couple with arthritic hocks - I give them a bit of time to find their comfy spot, but I still expect them to pick their feet up politely when I ask them to.

Are you sure you aren't trying to hold the leg up too high - that could be why you are finding that horses aren't able to balance properly when you pick their feet up.

No, I'm careful about not lifting too high.

I had an instructor talk to me once about paying attention to pulling outwards on the back leg, especially.

And I've tried (on other horses, not these two) copying what I've seen other more experience riders do: stand at the left side to do the rear right hoof and crossing it in front of the rear left leg. That works on a 17.5HH 6 year old that I sometimes ride, but then again he is perfectly well behaved during hoof cleaning. He's shod on the rear hooves, too, so I try to make sure that he doesn't skin himself with the shoe by flailing around. But he's so easy to handle. Compared to that mare, the difference is like night and day.

 

[SEL]

I have a small draft who genuinely does struggle with holding his feet up. We allow extra time with the farrier and always give him danilon beforehand - its arthritis and muscle issues.

I tend to find that if he is in daily having his feet picked out then he gets into a routine and will lift them for you. He likes them done in a certain order - his left fore is the worst, so we do right fore first so he is leaning on the bad leg at the beginning. BUT - if left (such as when the UK decides to have snow and ice for 2 weeks) then he becomes a bit of s*d and decides he can no longer lift any leg for anything.

I use the clicker and treats for him. So the minute the leg is offered up then click, treat. Once we've gone round this exercise a few times he remembers what he's supposed to be doing and we get back to holding them up to have them picked out.

My mare is interesting. She will lift on command of 'foot' when you tap the leg - but only if she thinks she has to more than once I've come back from holiday to the yard team telling me they haven't been able to pick her feet out because she's threatening to kick. She gets away with it because she can......

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

When I first got my horse he wasn't lifting his feet for me. The first time I'd tried I'd asked on a concrete surface and he slipped (didn't fall or get hurt but it knocked his confidence in me, and mine in myself) so got a lesson with a horsemanship trainer who is well thought of for giving young horses a good start. The lesson was to help me with ground work with my new partner, but I'd said I wanted to work on picking feet too. The first thing the trainer said was to stop leaning into him with my shoulder; my horse is too big so I can't use my weight to move him. Instead he showed me how to move E's weight onto his other 3 legs, making it easy to pick up the one I wanted.

its the same thing farriers do, although they might not know they are doing it.

 

[Nicnac]

Agree with others re training to lift hooves and gale de boue is mud fever

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We stand young, unbalanced horses next to a wall to pick up their feet, moving them over to the opposite wall as appropriate, until they gain the confidence to know that they can stand on 3 legs.

 

[tallyho!]

It's a shame they don't appear to have been taught as foals? Perhaps they were but have been allowed to fall out of practice at some point.

They can stand on three legs and perhaps some retraining is all that's needed?

 

[ihatework]

It’s generally just about training,

My new one came and wouldn’t lift his feet readily and is/was bad with the farrier.

It took about 8 weeks of very persistent training and hey presto he now picks all 4 feet up whilst loose, in command, in any sequence and recently from opposite sides.

Yet the first day it took someone at his head and about 10 mins of cajoling just to get the fronts picked out.

Last week he had all 4 feet shod at once (we had only done them in pairs up until then).

His issue was a mixture of worry and balance.

 

[ycbm]

There are two reasons why horses are scared of standing on three legs. The first is that until they are taught, they are afraid of not being able to balance. Unless there is a physical issue, this can be trained out.

The second is that on three legs they cannot run away from danger. Similarly, it can be difficult to train a horse to halt with equal weight in all four legs, as they don't have an unlocked leg to push off from. This can be more difficult to train in a fearful horse.

If a horse gets more difficult to pick out a foot, it's often a really good indicator of pain in the opposite leg.

My two year old has cracked the running away fear, but is still struggling a little with the balance fear, for which I cut him a little , but not a lot, of slack.

My cob now lifts the next foot in sequence before I ask. It's lovely when they do that

 

[PapaverFollis]

I think you just have to be quietly consistent with them about it. Different horses will probably be difficult with hooves for slightly different reasons but if you just quietly work away at it day in day out the vast majority will come round.

 

[tallyho!]

My cob now lifts the next foot in sequence before I ask. It's lovely when they do that

It's worth the training when they do that plus I couldn't have lifted their feet or bear any weight myself due to back injury so they had to respond to a voice.

The last three have responded to "foot" after some training no matter what order.

(I also do it to children when I'm putting their socks/shoes on... surprisingly effective )

 

[PapaverFollis]

My cob now lifts the next foot in sequence before I ask. It's lovely when they do that

It is lovely when you get to that point with them. My younger mare is starting to offer her back foot after I'm done with the front one and it's really nice cos she was so awkward about her backs when she first arrived. My old mare is the biggest suck up, goody 4 shoes ever, especially with the farrier. Without fail she can work out which foot he needs next and is waving it at him (in a "here is the foot you require Mr Farrier sir, arent I a good pony?" Kind of way) as he walks towards her. :lol:

 

[Regandal]

Some horses don't like having their feathers/hair tugged. I was taught to run my hand down the back of the leg, pause for a second halfway down and gently squeeze the tendon, then carry on down to the fetlock whilst giving a verbal 'up'. If they're a bit tardy in lifting whilst learning, I used to tap the outside of the knee with a hoofpick. Not hard enough to hurt, just to annoy.

 

[Keith_Beef]

Thanks a lot, to all of you.

As I mentioned, the cob is no longer with us, sadly... the bloke who manages the centre day-to-day decided to get rid of him. There were two main reasons for this:
there were only three of us who could get him to do much (we have a lot of novice riders, me included, and the more advanced riders tend to want to jump and so didn't want to ride him)
he has a powerful kick and damaged his stabling; he broke the cement feeder built into the corner, kicked off a patch of plaster and knocked out two bricks on one wall and supposedly broke the brickwork around the hinge of the bottom door (though I think that a badly adjusted frame, making the door stick, had something to do with that).

A complication in the situation with the other horse is that this being a riding centre, many other people will be riding her, and trying to clean her hooves. Anything behaviour I try to teach her could be undone by those other people. I suppose the best I can hope for, is that the others just leave her back hooves alone, and that with a bit of gentle but firm persuasion I can get her to lift her hooves for me. If I then later show one of the instructors the method that works, then she can teach everyone else.

 

[ycbm]

KB, on this country 'no longer with us, sadly' means dead. Did he have the horse shot for kicking a stable and getting a plod? He sounds like a classic PSSM case!

Is the other horse tied up when you are picking out her feet? The key with back ones is to be able to shift the foot forwards. One of the easiest ways to do that is to push the horse backwards. If she isn't a kicker, you could try it, but it's risky for her to be loose, of course.

 

[Keith_Beef]

KB, on this country 'no longer with us, sadly' means dead. Did he have the horse shot for kicking a stable and getting a plod? He sounds like a classic PSSM case!

Is the other horse tied up when you are picking out her feet? The key with back ones is to be able to shift the foot forwards. One of the easiest ways to do that is to push the horse backwards. If she isn't a kicker, you could try it, but it's risky for her to be loose, of course.

I see that now...

Well, he was sent away, I don't know where, and I heard that the centre was asking €2000 for him.

The first time somebody came with a horsebox to take him, he refused to get in and kicked up such a fuss that the bloke left without him. I wasn't there to see it, but he was apparently very angry about having driven all that way for nothing. I was told that by the end of trying to get him in, everybody was impatient, flustered, not conducive to getting a horse to do what he doesn't like doing.I've seen so many horses that refuse to get into the trailer or van, I don't understand why the horse wasn't better prepared and why the bloke wasn't warned that it could take a couple of hours to get him in. So the horse hung around through the summer break, a friend went to take care of him and then ride him for an hour every afternoon, and he eventually left around late September. I don't know where or how it went.

As for the other horse, I don't tie her up to brush or saddle her. As I wrote, she's generally quite well behaved. And suspecting the problem of balance, I wanted her to be able to take a step or half a step to settle herself.

Once, I tried tying her up to do her back hooves, but that didn't seem to help at all; if anything, she seemed more nervous.

 

[tallyho!]

If you are a paying client, is it your responsibility to teach the horses to lift hooves? Sounds like something the managers of the establishment should be sorting and not putting clients in any danger?

 

[Keith_Beef]

If you are a paying client, is it your responsibility to teach the horses to lift hooves? Sounds like something the managers of the establishment should be sorting and not putting clients in any danger?

I would agree with you in principle, that the horses should be well trained and well behaved, and that it is the role of the centre manager to ensure a safe environment.

I don't know how it works at other places, I suppose there will be something unique about each.

But the changes in management at this centre would have to be the subject of another overly-long post...

 

[Templebar]

I think unless there is a physical problem, then with training any horse should be able to do it. Also routine, which sounds like it will be lacking in your situation unfortunately, with mine they are all taught front, back, back, front. Usually nearside to offside but later the other way around too. If you give them the time to find their balance i find that most will offer the hoof without any fuss, with mine i am now able to tap the shoulder and up and by time i have reached down it is there. I have a cob who takes the longest time to find her balance and shift her weight around, which i wait for as asking before she is ready is futile really and means she learns to ignore the command.

With the mare i would say it is either a long ago learn habit that she doesn't want legs to be touched, which was probably developed out of pain or that she currently is in pain and finds it difficult. Having played horseball i would guess she is probably a bit stiff, i don't know if you use physio and chiropractors out there but i would think it stems up into her pelvis/back.

 

[Chinchilla]

Sorry - I agree with Milliepops. I have some who are less helpful about picking their feet up than others, but I regard it as bad manners, and they get a good prod if they don't pick up and stay up! I've got one who is a mild shiverer, and a couple with arthritic hocks - I give them a bit of time to find their comfy spot, but I still expect them to pick their feet up politely when I ask them to.

Agree. After all they can all rear in the field when playing or paw their feet when being silly can't they

With some, I think it's a trust issue; they don't want their feet handled because - as a prey animal - without their hooves in good nick, they're a bit stuffed should they have to flee a pony-eating wheelie bin or something.

That said, our arthritic Shetland doesn't like lifting his feet up much anymore: not because he's stiff or in pain, but because he anticipates that it will hurt (because it used to until he was put on micronised linseed for his joints, which has helped enormously), though as it's being done more and more without it hurting he's going back to his usual polite self, where you say "pick it up" and he lifts it for you. My mares both respond to a vocal "pick it up" + hand down leg instanteously, but aren't keen on doing it for strangers until they know them - though I still expect them to do it. My mum's TB is bad with the back ones because he is incredibly mud fever prone and hates having his ouchy fetlocks touched though, again, I still expect him to do it, and tend to just run my hand down his leg, skip the fetlock, and go straight to holding the hoof, along with a (savage sounding) "pick it up, moron" and a poke - having horses who are bad with their feet makes *everything* that much harder, not to mention makes you amazingly unpopular with farriers, plus farriery isn't the easiest job anyway so I feel it's only polite to try and make it as easy for them as you can!

 

[southerncomfort]

I agree with those saying it's a training issue but with regards to cobs, my old trimmer was always quite patient with them because as she used to say 'it takes longer for the message to get from the brain to the leg with cobs'.

I do wonder about horses that consistently offer the leg opposite to the one you've asked for. I don't know if it's genuine confusion or if their is a reason that picking up the other foot is easier.

 

[9tails]

It's not only a horse training issue, but also a handler training issue. For instance, my horse will lift her feet politely for me or others to clean them out but they're welded to the core of the earth for somebody nervous.

I wouldn't recommend lifting by the feather, that's unpleasant and uncomfortable for the horse.

 

[scats]

Haven't read all the replies but P came to me this summer and absolutely would not have her hinds picked out. She'd kick out, spin, walk away... if you got one she'd give you about 3 seconds to do it before snatching it and slamming it down.

Within 5 days of persistent and calm training, she was giving me her feet and holding them. It's a necessity, in my eyes, for general daily maintenance, for the farrier and also in the event of injury/ needing to poultice.

 

[SEL]

One of the other tricks is to move the horse forward until they are just about to pick up the foot you want (so naturally lifting it to take a step). Then you are lifting a foot up that the horse is already prepared to support.

It's difficult in riding schools because a lot of physical niggles go unchecked and many of the horses learn to take the easy route. I used to have my horses on livery at a RS and often got asked to help with feet. I'm no foot wizard, but I think I come with an air of "dont take the p!". The best was the little highland who used to sit down when you asked for a foot...

 

[Keith_Beef]

It's not only a horse training issue, but also a handler training issue. For instance, my horse will lift her feet politely for me or others to clean them out but they're welded to the core of the earth for somebody nervous.

Oh, yes, definitely agree with this, and I saw it this up at the yard, I had Dunapril, the somewhat tetchy mare about whom I wrote in my this thread who can't abide having her back hooves cleaned. Thinking that we were going to do jumping today, I was a bit wary about putting on fetlock boots, but she stood very quiet and still for me. I didn't get to clean her hooves, though...

My neighbour, Alain, meanwhile, was having a really hard time getting Sirène, another mare, ready; I could hear her moving around her stable, shoes clumping against the cement floor and legs brushing through the straw, and her rider's voice getting a bit of a worried tone to it as he told her to stand still and to stop playing silly *******.

So I left my horse and went next door to find Sirène with ears flat back and looking a bit mean; Alain had tried cleaning her hooves, and given up, and was now trying to put a headcollar on her, and she was having none of it.

I stood in front of her, a little to the side, spoke to her in a normal voice. Her ears picked up and she looked at me with a calmer expression, so I stepped forwards and put a hand on her neck, calmed her down and then I took the hoof pick from my pocket and let her sniff it. I moved my hand down from her neck to her shoulder, tapped her a couple of times and then ran my hand down towards the elbow joint, and she started to pick up her hoof, as nicely as you could with for, and Alain put a headcollar on Sirène.

Then did the next from hoof, then the two back hooves. Simples, eek.

Thinking Alain was back in control, I went back to tack up Dunapril. I'd got the saddle on her and was about to put on the bridle when I heard a scuffle and a shout, followed by the sound of horseshoes on cement and say Sirène go by at a quick walk. So I went out, bolting the door behind me, to catch Sirène by the headcollar as Alain came out with a lead rope. It turns out that as he had gone towards her to clip the lead rope onto the headcollar, she'd spun round, he'd followed, and when she'd got him trapped between her and the wall at the back of the stable she'd bumped him with her rump, he stumbled, and while he was picking himself up she just walked out of the stable.

After that, he tied her up and she stood still to be tacked up.

Both Dunapril and Sirène were taken for the class following ours, so we didn't have any cleaning to do, other than taking my fetlock boots off Dunapril (and again, she stood calmly for that). So I helped out one of the young women in our class who was having trouble with her horse, a gelding... hoof cleaning again.

So, same routine as with Sirène: same approach, same talking, same touching neck, shoulder, elbow, but Tempo took a half step backwards putting his rump against the wall; I got the front hooves done but needed to move him forwards to get the back ones. Still, not too hard, with a horse that had seemed difficult at first.

It's school holidays now, so we won't have this Saturday morning class for the next two weeks... I'm going to try to watch how these two riders approach their horses. I think that they might be approaching stooped over, reaching towards the hoof as they walk to the horse, and that this is maybe making the horse react.