Thoughts on ad lib hay/ feeding hay when horses stabled ?

[Spangles]

I have been told that it's OK for stabled horses not to have any forage for 4hrs. I'd be interested in thoughts on this routine.
Horses have plenty of good turnout (summer and winter) and hard feed once a day.
Stabled during the day in summer (15hrs overnight turnout) and hayed morning and lunchtime.
Stabled overnight in winter (about 7hrs turnout during the day) and hayed around 5pm for the evening.

I worry that grazing isn't as nutritious in the winter and then horses have a couple of hours of no hay wheny they come in before being hayed for the night. Rule of yard.

 

[Shay]

It depends on your horse. Some will cope very happily with this type of regime. Others less so. If you have a stressy ulcer prone type you will want to keep a more constant trickle of feed. If you have a good do-er native type you will have to restrict hay intake or you will shortly own a balloon.

 

[chocolategirl]

I have always worked on the 4 hour rule personally. I’m paranoid though about ulcers and colic, so for me it’s about prevention. Horses are after all, as we know, grazing animals, and are meant to eat little and often?‍ I’m fortunate in that I keep mine at home, so I go out and give them a big net at around 10pm that I know will mean they won’t be without forage for more than 4 hours max before breakfast at 6am. For weight worriers, double or triple netting is probably the only option to slow consumption down as much as poss. We have one or 2 on our yard that I know go as much as 12 hours with nothing going through their gut. They appear fine though ?

 

[Midlifecrisis]

I’ve always had hay available when horses are stabled. Greedy ones have small holed nets to slow them down. But I’ve noticed that if hay is always there the horses don’t woof it all down quickly..they know there is no urgency and eat when they want it. I have observed that horses on strict hay amounts eat their ration quickly and then have to stand many hours without which I feel works against the natural little and often grazing pattern horses naturally have.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I worry that grazing isn't as nutritious in the winter and then horses have a couple of hours of no hay wheny they come in before being hayed for the night. Rule of yard.

That will be a rule for the convenience of the yard, not the welfare of the horses. Bonkers.
Running out of hay overnight four hours before more hay is given at breakfast time is not IME really a problem, as the horses are likely quiet and dozing. If the last hay is given at 5pm though, how long before all that is eaten? 8pm?

 

[ycbm]

The 'no hay when they come in', I understand. They come in with a full belly and the YO is delaying the evening hay so that they run out later at night. But how odd that they hay twice when they are in for a shorter time in summer, but only once in winter when they're in overnight.

I'm not sure where you are getting four hours from? First because I've read two, not four, and second because unless they are being given a lot, if they are fed it at five it will have run out long before midnight for most horses.

.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If you otherwise like the yard, I would give your horse a big trug of chaff, either oat straw if you are concerned about weight gain or dried grass or alfalfa, which your horse will be able to go back to when he runs out of hay. Which he is almost bound to do.
I prefer never to leave a horse without hay for more than 2 hours and ours have their hay topped up around 11 when they are in overnight but they are kept at home.
It often amazes me what YOs don't offer, yet they claim to be experienced horse people themselves. When we were at livery our YO was a retired farmer, not someone with his own horses but he always went round about 10pm and topped up hay, if necessary. Hed did say that ours never needed a top up because we gave them enough to last the night.

 

[doodle]

I wouldn’t want them without hay ever. I use small holed nets but give enough that there is still a small amount left in the morning. He def eats less when he knows there is always some available.

 

[JoannaC]

I like then to still have a bit left in the morning so I know they haven't gone long periods without. When I was on livery I would leave a small amount in the morning for when she was brought in so she'd have something straight away and then i'd do her hay when I got there after work around 7ish. Meant she'd have nothing when I got there but wouldn't have been for more than two hours. Most of the other horses on the yard would have nearly finished their hay when I got up there so would have been going the whole night with nothing to eat. There was a big horse which shared my field and was becoming really aggressive due to hunger so I used to sneak it some hay from their other pony who was obese and laminitic but had an abundance of food!

 

[Leandy]

In an ideal world they would have ad lib forage freely available all the time. In the real world, most horses in modern conditions would get too fat on that regime, so I feed what they need to stay the correct weight. Then the next requirement is that it needs to be fed little and often to the extent you can to replicate ongoing grazing. I wouldn't personally let them get too fat for the sake of feeding ad lib forage. If they are getting a number of hours grazing a day though, even in winter when the grass isn't good, plus hay when in at least for part of the time, that is perfectly sufficient for most horses.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have three ID,s they all live with restricted forage while stabled they get turnout each day in whats now a very muddy field with very little grass
the fourth a warmblood can have ad-lib while stabled at this time of year come spring he is restricted while stabled .
The way I look at it the single you are most likely to do that damages your horse is to let it be fat the amount of hysteria that is spent worrying that horses might get ulcers while missing the fact that the horse is damaging its joints and risking life shorting soft tissues injury’s every single day while it’s fat is simply illogical .
Ulcers should horses get them are very very easily treated .
Arthritis and serious soft tissue damage ends horses lives and being fat is a major driver in these conditions .

 

[lamlyn2012]

I give a soaked fibre block in the evening along side haylage so they always have something to nibble on through the night .

 

[9tails]

Horses don't live by rules. More than 20 minutes without hay and my horse will trash her stable.

 

[Cortez]

Horses will not instantly sprout ulcers, colic, etc., if they are not continuously stuffing their faces. Judging by the number of fat, wobbly horses that I see around the majority would benefit from a vastly reduced diet and vigorous exercise regime. Modern horse keeping seems to have traveled so far from common sense and actual experience that it's hard to even talk about doing something different from what everyone has been told is the "right" way to do things. My inclined-to-be tubby horses get 8kg of hay daily, fed at 7am, 12 noon, 5pm and 10pm. They are bedded on straw so can have a nibble at that if they get peckish, but it means that they will be without hay for some periods throughout the 24hrs. They are happy, healthy, definitely not obese, and in more than 50 years of horse keeping we've only ever had one colic (due to eating ivy), never ulcers nor stable vices. This works for us.

 

[PurBee]

I think the problem is with our perception because mainly we’re paranoid about ulcers.
In a study on ulcers they showed they are caused by ‘stress’ to all horses, mainly when they were put into training after time-off, especially race-horses, 80% of them got ulcers when training starts. No change in feed pattern. Remarkably high results also for other disciplines. So the trigger was the training stress, not their food regimen, which would be average and not ad-lib at race yards especially.
So stress is the acute trigger. If the horse is fed very limited amounts of hay it’ll perceive it as stress and be ulcery. If an ad-lib horse is stressed by training, it’ll be at risk for ulcers, despite ad-lib.

The stomach wall and duodenum are coated to protect acid burning through. When stressed, body processes are halted in favour of stress response chemicals. Digestion and cellular repair is halted as the body in its wisdom sees the ability to ‘react to threat’ as more important than maintaining any other physiological processes.
I see it as energy and focus of the body gets ‘shunted’ to whats needed most as it cannot do everything all at once all the time.
If there are hours of stress hormones flooding the horses system due to stress X, mucilaginous stomach wall coatings will not be cellularly re-newed as efficiently..which sets a horse up for ulcers.

Another study showed that to treat an ulcer is best not ad-lib hay during acute treatment conditions. As the ad-lib hay intake prevented the medications being absorbed effectively. A 2 hour window was needed after medication time.

Another study also showed stomach acid production at night although still present, was reduced, indicating that horses have a natural circadian rhythmic response to day/night eat/rest cycle.

(I get a lot of horse science articles drop into my inbox daily showing study research)

The mindset of wild horses eating constantly at a trickle rate i personally believe to be nonsense. Documentaries show wild herds also spending hours just chilling out together. We’ve never filmed them constantly eating. There’s a wild herd on this wild mountain im on that arrive and chill out in the field nearby for hours....its full of grass and theyre not interested in grazing it constantly until every blade is gone.

Owners that can feed ad-lib probably find their horses spend hours not eating. An article recently said that those that do succeed ad-lib find the horses rest at 2% bw in hay on average when they studied ad-lib intake. Even at slow mouthfuls of a tiny amount of hay, eating constantly a horse would easily achieve over 2% bw.

We need to get rid of the notion of picturing them NEEDING something to eat constantly, or they’ll get ulcers. No data supports that hypothesis.

Recognising stress and reducing it with wiser management practices of their work expectations and environmental influences like freedom/fresh air etc reduce ulcers and other stress-based illnesses.
As already stated, its worse to have a fat horse and the downstream pathologies from that due to ulcer paranoia of owners.

Lastly, another study showed when we keep horses to a ‘feed routine’ they like to be kept at it, no matter what that regime is. This is presuming a regular multi-feed times in 24 hrs. When feed is later by an hour pawing and other stress responses are the norm. When earlier than usual, the horse isnt ready and eats slowly or leaves feed. So even switching about their feed routine can cause stress, which can cause ulcers if feed times are too random. Its not the food, lack or more of it causing the stress in this instance, its the timing of meals.

 

[hihosilver]

I have three ID,s they all live with restricted forage while stabled they get turnout each day in whats now a very muddy field with very little grass
the fourth a warmblood can have ad-lib while stabled at this time of year come spring he is restricted while stabled .
The way I look at it the single you are most likely to do that damages your horse is to let it be fat the amount of hysteria that is spent worrying that horses might get ulcers while missing the fact that the horse is damaging its joints and risking life shorting soft tissues injury’s every single day while it’s fat is simply illogical .
Ulcers should horses get them are very very easily treated .
Arthritis and serious soft tissue damage ends horses lives and being fat is a major driver in these conditions .

I beg to differ here. I agree with horses not being fat and risking joints etc. However, ulcers are certainly not always easy to treat. Our little connie semi retired was treated BUT like lots of horses has developed scar tissue as a result of grade 2 and 3 ulcers. Unfortunately this makes him prone to ulcers coming back and also colic. He has been out now 24/7 with ad-lib hay. Yes he is a bit tubby but happy.

 

[doodle]

Robin dosnt

only ever had one colic (due to eating ivy), never ulcers nor stable vices. This works for us.

Robin gets hay ad-lib. He also has never had ulcers nor does he have stable vices. He did get colic once when he went back out after box rest and I stupidly let him have too much grass and he gorged.

Soli got ulcers (that were NOT easy to treat) after he went on strike and refused to eat the provided hay. So ad-lib it is for me.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Horses will not instantly sprout ulcers, colic, etc., if they are not continuously stuffing their faces. Judging by the number of fat, wobbly horses that I see around the majority would benefit from a vastly reduced diet and vigorous exercise regime. Modern horse keeping seems to have traveled so far from common sense and actual experience that it's hard to even talk about doing something different from what everyone has been told is the "right" way to do things. My inclined-to-be tubby horses get 8kg of hay daily, fed at 7am, 12 noon, 5pm and 10pm. They are bedded on straw so can have a nibble at that if they get peckish, but it means that they will be without hay for some periods throughout the 24hrs. They are happy, healthy, definitely not obese, and in more than 50 years of horse keeping we've only ever had one colic (due to eating ivy), never ulcers nor stable vices. This works for us.

Horses have traditionally been bedded on straw, which they can nibble on if they have finished their hay, nowadays many horses (including mine) are bedded on shavings, or even rubber mats, which thay can't nibble on, so they need to be provided with an alternative, a low-calorie chaff works very well if weight gain is a concern. I agree that far too many horses are too fat and that will have an adverse effect on their joints. But there is no need to risk ulcers either - the treatment might be fairly simple but it is expensive and unnecessary in many cases if the horse has been manged correctly.


ETA, after having read PurBee's post, what they need is ad-lib availability of forage, NOT to be eating all the time. Restriction, especially while stabled, causes stress.

 

[flying_high]

In an ideal world they would have ad lib forage freely available all the time. In the real world, most horses in modern conditions would get too fat on that regime, so I feed what they need to stay the correct weight. Then the next requirement is that it needs to be fed little and often to the extent you can to replicate ongoing grazing. I wouldn't personally let them get too fat for the sake of feeding ad lib forage. If they are getting a number of hours grazing a day though, even in winter when the grass isn't good, plus hay when in at least for part of the time, that is perfectly sufficient for most horses.

The three warmbloods I've owned in the last ten years, have all done fine on truly adlib hay, all year round. I have once in ten years muzzled when the grass in field was too good for weight reasons. I don't really find often mine eat / ate any more on adlib than they would with daily haynets. But I have the piece of mind they always have hay left in their hay boxes. And I never have to fill haynets. It has never been a weight issue. I do have horses in 7-10 hours of work a week though.

 

[Goldenstar]

I beg to differ here. I agree with horses not being fat and risking joints etc. However, ulcers are certainly not always easy to treat. Our little connie semi retired was treated BUT like lots of horses has developed scar tissue as a result of grade 2 and 3 ulcers. Unfortunately this makes him prone to ulcers coming back and also colic. He has been out now 24/7 with ad-lib hay. Yes he is a bit tubby but happy.

something other than diet drives persistent ulcers .

 

[Goldenstar]

There’s no point in providing straw chaff if the horses won’t eat it .
Mine don’t .
Harvey would but these three draughts won’t .
but if you are feeding forage five times a day they manage ok.

 

[hihosilver]

something other than diet drives persistent ulcers

Actually in his case it was diet related. Long periods of no turnout and very little forage (RSPCA involved) . I also had an ISH who developed them after travelling 9 hours without forage. I think all the latest research now indicate that horses need to be trickle fed and can develop ulcers in a very short time frame. For me now the way forward is ad lib. I do use trickle nets and all horses have round bales with them. I can easily get any excess pounds off but ulcers..... are a nightmare for horse and owner!

 

[milliepops]

ETA, after having read PurBee's post, what they need is ad-lib availability of forage, NOT to be eating all the time..

this is how I manage mine. I have 2 stressy horses that have differing appetites but neither will stuff themselves constantly until they have empty nets, they both always have something available (and I chuck the left overs into their beds so if really desperate they will pick at that). they are often snoozing rather than eating but they have the option should they choose.

Mine come in to fresh hay but their grazing is pretty non existent at the moment so they are hungry when they come in. YO routine is to turn out and then put new nets in for them. I don't really understand the policy in the OP's yard.

I wouldn't mind multiple smaller nets but it works for us to have one big night time one, and then a smaller daytime one for after turnout.

 

[Goldenstar]

ulcers for most healthy horses is a question a weekly injection for a month .
I tried trickle nets I found them very bad for horses necks .
H is hunting hard long days on three medium nets of forage per 24 hours token feed of bran in the morning he’s been on that all winter he’s beautiful atm but I will push on for lots of visible ribs by mid March .
He will have hunted all winter on that ,its impressive but of course they selected the mares for thriftiness when they developed the breed .
Sky arrived moderately fat and very unfit hes hunting now and I must get him skinny by Spring he’s been shown you could not do so now we have him on track, but bigger than I like .
Fatty , my retired friend Fatty has been clipped right out is in a no fill in the field and in a 50 g at night he’s back in walking exercise which he seems to be tolerating soundness wise he’s restricted as much as I dare he’s on very short rations he’s an awesome doer I am hoping he will lose a bit before spring.
ID’s are really only for those who can restrict food and particularly grazing in summer
If you could control the environment mine would be a nightmare.

 

[scats]

I have to restrict mine or they would be overweight. Both are good doers, Millie more than Polly. They are in overnight in the winter and they are currently given 5kg overnight in a small holed net, plus a snack ball with some fibre cubes in. They were getting less but I have just increased it due to the grazing in their particularly field depleting over the last month, but it’s still a field of grass, rather than mud, so plenty to pick at throughout next the day and they are never at the gate waiting. I’ve given them a bucket of plain chopped straw in the past and it’s usually knocked over and peed on...

In an ideal world I would love to give them ad lib, but I also want them to live healthy lives. It’s a fine balance, but if they have to stand for 2-3 hours without eating, then that’s what has to happen. They are healthy, happy and have no signs of ulcers.

 

[NinjaPony]

For me it has to be restriction within reason. I can't have fat horses, but I also don't want unhappy stressed hungry horses...

My welsh a still has his hay properly soaked all throughout winter so he can get a decent size net overnight which keeps him happy. My connie can drop off over winter so this year I'm giving him adlib timothy haylage. The timothy stuff is more expensive but much lower in sugar and starch so he can have as much as he wants.

They have only mud in the field so they get half a small bale of timothy between two in the field. My welsh comes in to a very small net of soaked hay, connie to a small slice in a net. Then overnight my welsh gets a 2 small slices soaked, and my connie gets about 8-9kg. There is usually a bit left in the morning which I'm happy with.

Once the spring grass comes through it's a different story-my welsh will be muzzled and on soaked hay, and my connie will no longer have as much haylage as he can eat! Both look good but not fat at the moment, and my welsh has dropped off a bit from summer which is good.

Like others, I've found that even with greedy natives, if they have plenty of forage, then they tend to pick at it gradually rather than stuffing themselves.

 

[Cortez]

I have PRE's which are generally extremely good doers. Under no circumstances will they "self regulate": left to it they'd quite happily keep on eating until they are the size of hippopotamuses, then just as happily take a good run at laminitis/joint problems/EMS, etc. They spend a fair amount of time with no food dangling in front of them and are not stressed in the slightest; they tend to just snooze. As I said, I've never had a horse with ulcers, nor colic, and I certainly don't want to have any with laminitis, EMS, or giant wobbling bellies and all the problems that go along with being fat.

 

[AFB]

I feed adlib in a small-ish holed net, because I can, I don't have a fatty. He does well on adlib and a small top up feed, so I have peace of mind of always having food available and it keeps my hard feed bill down which saves me money (hay inc. in livery costs)

 

[Goldenstar]

I have PRE's which are generally extremely good doers. Under no circumstances will they "self regulate": left to it they'd quite happily keep on eating until they are the size of hippopotamuses, then just as happily take a good run at laminitis/joint problems/EMS, etc. They spend a fair amount of time with no food dangling in front of them and are not stressed in the slightest; they tend to just snooze. As I said, I've never had a horse with ulcers, nor colic, and I certainly don't want to have any with laminitis, EMS, or giant wobbling bellies and all the problems that go along with being fat.

All three of my draughts would eat themselves into a early death as well .
two of them are hunting and neither are fat atm because they are hunting but if I let them at forage 24/7 they would be fat and hunting that’s a bad combination.
its been a mild difficult winter for those managing Fatties .
My horses are perfectly happy in their stables they are well worked turned out daily ( unless they are away for the day )and as they are working hard they spend loads of time sleeping.
my retired horse is harder to manage .

 

[Winters100]

It depends on the horse, and in my opinion having a 'one size fits all' yard rule is nonsense.

Mine have hay all the time, inside and out. Their paddock has no grass to speak of, so we have a big round bale with a cover. They are out dawn to dusk, so currently about 7-30am to 4pm. They both do a fair bit of work and are not particularly prone to gaining weight. For them I am convinced that the healthiest way is to always have hay available, they look good on it and do not eat all the time.

If I did have to watch their weight I would still ideally want them to have hay all the time, but would source some older and less rich hay, maybe feed through a couple of nets. If that did not work I would be more afraid of the dangers of obesity than I would of ulcers, and in this case would limit it.

I think the question is how do your horses look and behave on this regime? And if it is not for them then maybe you need to find a more flexible yard, because I honestly cannot imagine being somewhere that would not accommodate my wishes in respect of such a key issue. If it is a staffing thing then maybe you can find a work around, such as you fill a haynet or bag the evening before and they hang it before the horses come in.

As a last resort you could just tell them that it is on vets instructions. Best to agree with the vet first, but I have used this tactic for mine and they somehow take it more seriously than me just saying that I would like things done a certain way.