Video Thoughts please....

[brighteyes]

PPID sort of creeps up on you and it's not always obvious or equal in all its effects, either. The big problem is (as I see it, anyway) is the unregulated cortisol production. A real danger that can tip a chubby pony into a laminitic one. After that, and even with medication, the battle is on with the constant guarding against an episode. Prior to that are subtle signs of sub-clinical laminitis where the stride is shortened and slightly pottery on hard going or stony ground, yet they are often happy to fly about on soft going. This also damages the destabilised laminae and it's usually a gradual descent into laminitis if you don't realise what's going on. You really don't want him to get laminitis and you really do need to get the weight down ASAP. His crazy coat is probably another sign as horses usually aren't yaks. The reduced quality of coat is obvious - in hindsight!

 

[brighteyes]

It’s diagnosed by taking bloods and checking the ACTH levels, so nice and simple.

In terms of his coat making him look bigger than he is, I can sympathise. Mary and Flower always look at their largest at this time of year, but it really is hair. I know from doing Mary’s girth up that she’s actually dropped off a fair amount over winter and that come spring, when she sheds out, she’ll be a really nice weight underneath it all.

You can't rely on this. Each horse is different and if the ribs are hidden beneath a layer of blubber, it's dangerous, especially at this time of year. The coat thickness shouldn't render the ribs indistinguishable to the touch.

 

[palo1]

No comments on this particular horse tbh but I bet vets wished that lameness could be identified by a 12 second owner trot-up video clip...

 

[Sossigpoker]

No one here is diagnosing the cause of the lameness but the lameness can be seen in this video. No the quality isn't great but if you know what you're looking at you can see the hind end lameness. If you sent this video to your vet they would say the same.

 

[greenbean10]

No comments on this particular horse tbh but I bet vets wished that lameness could be identified by a 12 second owner trot-up video clip...

They'd probably all go out of business ?

 

[Sossigpoker]

They'd probably all go out of business ?

Well it can. ? obviously they can't see the reason for the lameness but if they can't see it in this video they probably shouldn't be practicing.

 

[greenbean10]

Well it can. ? obviously they can't see the reason for the lameness but if they can't see it in this video they probably shouldn't be practicing.

No, I know it was just a joke. No offence meant! My vet is well used to me sending videos through to him asking if the horse is lame.

 

[southerncomfort]

If money for investigations is depleted (and you're happy that his WLD is under control), I wonder if what remains might be better spent on some well fitting hoof boots so that he can be walked out every day to get some weight off.

Avoiding the dreaded lami probably needs to be a priority.

I think you'll have a better idea of whether their is something mechanical going on or not once he's a bit lighter.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

No comments on this particular horse tbh but I bet vets wished that lameness could be identified by a 12 second owner trot-up video clip...

Sorry, I appreciate that the video isn't the best ???

 

[ycbm]

I think all the people who think the horse is lame are suggesting is that they are seeing enough to warrant calling a vet.

I'm not sure why we are all being so got at, the thread was started because there's a gut feeling that the horse is not right, after all, it's not as if we are pulling apart somebody's video of their training session!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think you need to get weight off of him then reasses. Clipping might help too.

Is it possible to separate him from the others some of the time so he doesn't get so much hay? Or put him in his own area with soaked netted hay for a majority of the time?

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Ok so just to try to catch up on the above....
Video isn't great I know, I'm going to try for some better ones. Tricky when I'm next to him as he's small and I'm 5ft 11 ??
He really isn't as fat as he looks, although he is overweight. He's a very short all over, very compact chap with ALOT of hair so he's a bit deceiving. Owner acknowledges that work needs to be done on his weight.
Separating him is unfortunately not possible, our horses live out on private land and we are limited to what we are allowed to do by the landlord, he is generally very accommodating but the above would be difficultto do...though we will be able to partly strip graze again this year. We are desperately trying to find straw to mix with the hay but everywhere is sold out..!!!!
Owner is going to do the Cushings test, thank you for the info there, very useful.
We (and farrier, and vet) are happy that the WLD is not an issue now.
These videos show a BIG improvement on his way of going before the front shoes went on.
Vet is DEFINITELY going to be called out for a last ditch assessment in the hope that he can see something we can work with.
The other thing that I keep going back to is PSSM as a possibility....I've copied below the symptoms from the SmartPak website and put a tick next to the ones I feel he displays..

• reluctance to move forward on the lunge or under saddle✔
• topline atrophy (loss of muscle over the back).....there is some
• difficulty striking off into canter, keeping canter leads, or performing flying changes....can't comment
• an undiagnosed subtle or mild, shifting lameness✔
• an abnormal gait or gait asymmetry✔
• resentment towards saddling....he doesn't seem to mind
• sensitivity to grooming....not that we have seen
• sore, painful, firm back and hindquarter muscles✔
• reluctance to collect and engage....can't comment
• reduced enthusiasm for exercise✔
• drop in energy level✔
• unwillingness to perform after 5-10 minutes of exercise ✔

So thinking that today we will collect some hair samples for the DNA test for this..???

 

[Apizz2019]

This is just a snapshot in time, in my opinion, and I'd recommend a full vet lameness work up if there are serious concerns.

Not all horses track up perfectly in all gaits, for many reasons, but it doesn't always mean they're lame, in pain etc.

He is landing toe first but possibly due to slight discomfort with the WLD, which takes much longer than what we can visibly see to resolve completely, and also possibly as he's not readjusted his balance to having shoes on.

The handler isn't letting him run freely so this could also be the cause of slight lameness we can see in both gaits.

First and foremost, I'd work at getting the weight off.

You might find you have a very different pony when he's lost his blubber.

Good luck!

 

[HobleytheTB]

Can you get video of him trotting on the lunge on each rein? I usually find it might easier to spot things on a circle!

 

[DabDab]

I think he looks sore in front. The hind end looks like it isn't coming through because he can't get the front out of the way because he is being a bit protective of the front (hence why I would guess at soreness), but also because he is going downhill on wet tarmac with shoes, is porky, and looks to have fairly restrictive conformation.

Your friend might as well get the vet out for assessment and at least block the feet that you know were and issue previous, just to see if his movement changes. A hands on assessment from the vet and a few blocks is a relatively inexpensive way your friend could get a bit more info to go on.

 

[TheMule]

Impossible to conclude anything from those videos, sorry!
But most of that list of symptoms you've posted would also be normal for an overweight, unfit cob TBH. I would do as others have suggested and get him into regular work, on a diet and then re-assess in 6 weeks, especially if money if tight and decisions may be needed about his future.

 

[Lady2021]

Impossible to conclude anything from those videos, sorry!
But most of that list of symptoms you've posted would also be normal for an overweight, unfit cob TBH. I would do as others have suggested and get him into regular work, on a diet and then re-assess in 6 weeks, especially if money if tight and decisions may be needed about his future.

I agree 100 percent

 

[Shilasdair]

I can't identify the cause of the lameness, but he's lame all round.
Pretty evenly bilaterally lame in front, lame in both behind too but worse on his right hind.

I hope you get him sorted (he's a bit on the cuddly side too...)

 

[JJS]

You can't rely on this. Each horse is different and if the ribs are hidden beneath a layer of blubber, it's dangerous, especially at this time of year. The coat thickness shouldn't render the ribs indistinguishable to the touch.

I never suggested it should. There’s no denying that OP’s friend’s horse is overweight (as she’s acknowledged), but the amount of hair on a cob can be deceptive to the naked eye - that’s all I was saying. Having your actual hands on the horse and seeing them in person can obviously tell a different story to only seeing pictures and videos of them in their winter coats.

 

[palo1]

I think generally speaking it is really awkward to look at an issue on video like this; not least because there is a bit of a culture amongst equestrians in the UK for 'seeing' lameness where actually it is probably impossible to do that objectively, bearing in mind all of the other factors which may impact on a horse's way of going and the view that is given in a snapshot. For me, that is why a lameness workup isn't done in this way. It is a bit of a grim hobby really - spotting lameness in every other horse that is shown moving and lots of posters on here won't show videos of their horses for that reason; it is plain demoralising and worrying. A proper work up in real time with a hands on assessment is the only way to know how the horse is at this point, how it has been previously and what might be going on. It can be easy to say a horse is lame but only a vet or farrier should really be providing constructive advice on what to do next imo.

 

[angel7]

Well it looks sore all round to me, bilateral in front and stiff behind, I wonder if the white line disease is a bit of a red herring.
Are you sure of the age? He moves just like my arthritic old cob at 27 after a lifetime of being hammered on the roads by a certain nomadic corner of society.
The addition of a rider will probably cause tripping.
I see toe landing in front and a twisting action behind aswell as shortness of stride both sides, worse on the right hind.
My money is on coffin joint arthritis infront and bone spavin behind.
Also consider feather mite and mallanders, can be so hard to see under the feather and so sore in the skin folds they will not stretch forward properly.
Without x rays you'll never know... if theres no money? Fill him up with bute, clip the body and work the weight off gently on softer surfaces and straight lines. If he improves you have the answer, shame he looks a poppet.

 

[ycbm]

I don't know about the horse angel7, I can't take my eyes off your join date! I didn't even know the forum existed 19 years ago. Are you the "oldest" member?
.

 

[angel7]

I might be... havent posted for years as keep forgetting the login.
I'm a long term lurker indeed

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I just want to clarify that my friend bought this chap very cheap as a punt and he has cost over 2k for various reasons in less than 12 months. She doesn't begrudge him at all but is sadly out of money. He became very lame within a very short time frame of being here, before insurance was sorted (excellent time to remind people to insure ASAP..!!!).
I should add that he had a 5 day bute trial before the shoes were put on and there was no discernable difference....the difference was when he'd been off it for 9 days and the shoes went on. The relief in his face was almost palpable bless him.
His initial lameness was sorted with careful farriery and treatment of the WLD. His feet were horrific initially which was part of the reason my friend bought him, to give him a chance. Daft/soft etc I know but there you go.

 

[angel7]

2k down and this is an improvement?
Friend needs a better vet.
Sorry to be blunt but you could spend another 2k and be no further forward.
The list of possibilities is long at this point. If no improvement on bute I would be considering nerve pain/spine compression of the neck, PSD, PSSM, Cushings, bone spurs, navicular syndrome, chronic pedal bone inflammation.... The stubbing of the toe looks worrisome. Did farrier have to resection the feet to treat WLD? No improvement on bute is very odd....
Some basic nerve blocks could at least narrow it down to the feet being the problem.
Would be interesting to see him on the soft on a circle.
Top up the vitamin E anyway no harm in it.
You could do your own flexion tests without the vet cost. Palpate the joint and soft tissues. Hold each foot up and flex each joint firmly to its fullest range and note any reactions even small ones like tightening of the muzzle, do one at a time and get someone else to film the sharp trot up immediately. Trot up briskly on a loose rein after every joint flex ie pastern, knee and shoulder and compare.
Pasture pet at best I fear.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

2k down and this is an improvement?
Friend needs a better vet.

While I appreciate the information provided in the rest of your post, this part is unnecessary and wholly unfair. We have an EXCELLENT vet and at no point did I say that 2k had been spent on lameness issues. I stated *various* issues. He had laser surgery for 5 sarcoids for one. Poor lad has come with a multitude of issues, he's had dental surgery for a broken tooth, regular physio treatment, fortnightly farrier visits at one point, and so on.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I'd like to add that the reason he wasn't shod previously was because it's taken since May last year, when he arrived, to get his feet right enough to actually hold the shoes. He has very square, upright feet and it doesn't make for an easy job. His front feet had huge chunks missing from them, they were shocking to be honest but finally actually look like hooves at last.

 

[Sossigpoker]

While I appreciate the information provided in the rest of your post, this part is unnecessary and wholly unfair. We have an EXCELLENT vet and at no point did I say that 2k had been spent on lameness issues. I stated *various* issues. He had laser surgery for 5 sarcoids for one. Poor lad has come with a multitude of issues, he's had dental surgery for a broken tooth, regular physio treatment, fortnightly farrier visits at one point, and so on.

Sounds like he's getting all the help he needs. Does he need to be ridden or could he be retired into the field? He does look "field sound " in these at least

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Being completely honest I think my friend has decided that if she can't get to the bottom of the issue with the last very limited funds then she will PTS. It's a tough call but he has had everything possible thrown at him and if he's never going to be "right" it's the only way to secure his future long term.
That might appear unfair to some but, as many have already pointed out on this thread, he is an overweight cob who lives on fresh air. A horse that's on a diet but able to exercise is one thing but I think it would be a fairly miserable existence for a horse that can't do anything and has constant restrictions (which are not easy with our set up at the best of times).

 

[angel7]

I'm sorry but we are working off limited information from what you've posted.
You've asked for thoughts as if your vet is stumped and owner is unable to spend anymore and needs cheap solutions.
If the vet has seen this pony and hasn't noticed/mentioned this current lameness then that is an issue. You did say he went lame at the start therefore no insurance.
The obvious answer is of course a full body work up with nerve blocks, x rays, ultrasound and MRI.
The owner cant afford that so no point in posting it.

Often we cant see the wood for the trees, it sounds as if the WLD is being blamed for all his ills. If his feet were that bad then he has been compensating for a long time and probably caused skeletal issues elsewhere.
There's no point in mentioning it now the money has been spent but when cash is limited a heirarchy of treatment should have been considered at the start. Why spend precious funds lasering sarcoids (expensive way to treat) (unless they were real bleeding mess) and getting physio when the pony has obvious multiple lameness issues?
I feel for the poor owner as I don't think her professionals have spent her money wisely.
The videos remind me very much of the black cob recently posted on H and H which tripped and ended up being PTS sadly due to wobblers.
I remember now why I dont post on here.
I am blunt and dont mince my words. That never comes across well. I've taken that punt and bought many poorly horses (who hasn't?) and been down the rabbit hole of spending so much and trying another thing to make it right.
I wish the owner luck. The pony has suffered and I commend the owner for trying to help it.