Thoughts South Herefordshire hunt.

[palo1]

I participate in drag hunting and trail hunting and over the period that people have been made aware of this appalling incident I have heard nothing but disgust and outrage at the actions of these people. I have not even heard a whisper of 'they were stupid to get caught' or anything like that in honesty. The folk I know are hugely frustrated and despondent - as are most decent people, to think this has happened. The hunt has been disbanded, ostracised and reviled by all formal means - through the Countryside Alliance, through the MFHA, through Bailey's Hunting Directory. I am not sure that the reaction could be much clearer but there is an enormous sense in which people want to believe the hunting community behave like this which I find very sad. All my life, the majority of people I have known involved with hunting are skilled and respectful countrymen and women who have an intimate understanding of the balance of wildlife. I have seen some remarkable acts of compassion and joy in nature when I have been involved. For me there is not necessarily a contradiction between hunting and conservation, hunting and loving animals with an understanding and respect, appreciation of the very delicate balance in our ecosystem and the need to ensure that we do move with the times and the acquisition of new knowledge and values. I don't believe that I am alone in having this view or experience but social media seems weighted to deny all of that with much angry 'froth' which often lacks substance, evidence or any real understanding. These men from South Herefordshire are out and out vile characters who have no place anywhere near animals at all - wild or domestic, rural or urban. They certainly deserve a longer sentence and to never be able to work with or keep animals again.

 

[pixie]

Hmmf, and yet the amount of times the local hunt somehow ends up on land which they are not permitted on.... Can they really be following a set trail?!

 

[ycbm]

Hmmf, and yet the amount of times the local hunt somehow ends up on land which they are not permitted on.... Can they really be following a set trail?!

There is a new skill in hunting since the ban.

It's laying a trail which will comply with the law, yet is so weak that the hounds will pick up fox and follow that 'by mistake'.

And strangely, although foxhounds often find fox scent when drag hunting, and are immediately called off, there doesn't seem to be the same level of recall in foxhounds which trail hunt.

Do you remember the attempt that the SNP scuppered to spite Cameron to make it legal to use more than two hounds to flush to a gun? If that had been passed, it would have become nigh-on impossible to convict anyone for hunting illegally as long as any member of the hunt was carrying a gun.


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[Ridererror]

It is all very upsetting really. hunting is something I wanted to try this year and I have never been against it. I owuldn't say I have "actively" supported it but have often gone to see the horses and hounds leave, and always believed that on th whole they were good and law abiding people. I always thought that antis lie/exaggerate/edit footage etc. But the more and more that comes out the harder it is getting to defend/justify. The problem often being that any argument is coming from either one side or the other "antis" or "supporters" rather than a neutral/unbias source.

 

[paddy555]

Hmmf, and yet the amount of times the local hunt somehow ends up on land which they are not permitted on.... Can they really be following a set trail?!

yes that happened on our land where they are forbidden and also my non hunting neighbour's land. The master who came out afterwards didn't even appear to know the boundaries. I was very lucky that day. The whole pack came over the fence into a very well fenced area where my GSD runs free and has never challenged the boundaries but of course hounds charged around trying to get over every fence. I was seconds from losing him with them. If he had tried to follow them it would have been into a field of sheep. They were a long way from the apparently set "trail" and one of the hunt staff was casually walking down the road with his horse on a long rein whilst the hounds were running amok. Control sadly lacking.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I no longer hunt but none of my friends that do think that this is anything except appalling animal cruelty. It is nothing to do with hunting, it is all about some sick idiot who likes torture and killing.

That's certainly my view, Clodagh - and I've met a lot of professional huntsmen in my day. Professional huntsmen have wholeheartedly condemned this incident and I don't think the chap who did it will EVER get a job in a registered hunt again.

 

[Follysmum]

Disgusting
I do wonder what else goes on with some hunts, I have been to a few and tbh have found them awful.
Witnessed some appalling disgusting cruel behaviour so won’t be participating again. Also overheard them taking about the costs and the fact that they keep the cost high to keep the lower common people away.

 

[Equine_Dream]

It's absolutely disgusting behaviour. Everyone I know in the hunting community has expressed nothing but disgust for it, and certainly not said anything along the lines of "how stupid for getting caught".
They certainly have not done anything in the hunting community's favour with the sab thug groups. They'll be using this as a stick to beat the hunting community for many a season to come.
Not that these sick people in question dont deserve it but it's a shame that legal hunts will more than likely also suffer, and if anything it will spur on the sabs.

 

[Ridererror]

Disgusting
I do wonder what else goes on with some hunts, I have been to a few and tbh have found them awful.
Witnessed some appalling disgusting cruel behaviour so won’t be participating again. Also overheard them taking about the costs and the fact that they keep the cost high to keep the lower common people away.

I must admit I do think some hunts or, more specifically, some hunt members do themselves no favour with the way they behave and talk. Gives them all a bad name unfortunately.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Disappointingly, the official on line Horse and Hound comment is hidden behind the rather ridiculous VIP pay wall. I’m a subscriber to both the paper and online editions, and I can’t access it. C’mon, H&H, this is too important to hide behind a pay wall.



Still working out how to put the least negative spin on it, are you?

 

[littleshetland]

Really? You can’t see the difference, Becky?

Perhaps you'd like to tell us the difference...?

 

[Follysmum]

To be fair a lot of my friends go hunting and most agree they only go for the thrill of the ride, they say they are probably being hypocritical and are guilty of turning a blind eye and hate the thought of the fox being killed.

 

[Ridererror]

To be fair a lot of my friends go hunting and most agree they only go for the thrill of the ride, they say they are probably being hypocritical and are guilty of turning a blind eye and hate the thought of the fox being killed.

From what I can tell from my (very limited) experience - this view is quite common. Everyone that I know that hunts really would not want to witness a fox being killed by any means. But they enjoy the ride, atmosphere, thrill etc so go regularly. I think most of them would be put off if they had to witness dispatch of a fox.

I have friends who control the foxes by me (and I have lost chickens to them) and I am comfortable (if thats the irght word) with the foxes being shot/controlled etc but if I had to be completely honest I would rather not witness it! I have friends who shoot pheasants, rabbits and I am often handed in the meat which is fed to my Dad, OH or dog as I don't eat it. But again I would rather not witness them being shot.

 

[Fransurrey]

Sadly does not surprise me. I have come across some incredibly arrogant and callous people involved in hunts (staff, not the field). My local one used to feed foxes to ensure a good day's hunting (pre ban days). One of the followers went with them to do it - she had no idea it went on before that. I don't like to think of what else they get up to.

 

[fburton]

Unfortunately, the tiny minority of people who get perverse pleasure from animal cruelty will inevitably be attracted to take up occupations where there are opportunities to be cruel to animals without it being noticed and/or condemned. Some will end up working in slaughterhouses, others as hunt staff. Of course that doesn't mean that all hunt staff or abattoir workers are depraved - but it suggests that more rigorous safeguards need to be put in place (e.g. CCTV).

 

[Fransurrey]

Hmmf, and yet the amount of times the local hunt somehow ends up on land which they are not permitted on.... Can they really be following a set trail?!

Quite. Last year they charged through our yard with the hounds out of control. All our horses went ballistic. We are nowhere near their usual 'trail laying' country.

 

[palo1]

It is all very upsetting really. hunting is something I wanted to try this year and I have never been against it. I owuldn't say I have "actively" supported it but have often gone to see the horses and hounds leave, and always believed that on th whole they were good and law abiding people. I always thought that antis lie/exaggerate/edit footage etc. But the more and more that comes out the harder it is getting to defend/justify. The problem often being that any argument is coming from either one side or the other "antis" or "supporters" rather than a neutral/unbias source.

The people involved in hunting (drag hunting, bloodhounding, trail hunting, beagling) truly do come from all walks of life and I have found it fascinating to ponder on the on-going moral issue around hunting (and wildlife management, conservation, rewilding and agriculture) whilst discussing with doctors, vets, policemen, teachers, plumbers, farm labourers, farmers, chefs, nurses, supermarket cashiers, charity workers, conservationists, horse trainers etc. It is hard to reconcile some of those individuals (and myself actually) and their professional roles and responsibilities with the idea that these are cruel, ignorant and immoral people. There are bad people in every walk of life of course but the issue around cruelty and illegality in hunting often gets directly linked to specific 'values'. To me, these values (usually of cruelty, ignorance, arrogance, immorality) are at odds with many of the values explicitly needed in a professional role for many participants so that immediately presents a huge level of cultural dissonance.

It is common to hear of hunts trespassing or presenting an arrogance or illegality in their behaviour yet the truth is sometimes quite a distance from the public presentation. I know of incidents where people have been outraged by the presence of the hunt on 'their' land or nearby yet in reality the owner of the land has given express permission for the hunt.

I have also seen passers-by or hunt monitors completely, totally and often deliberately misinterpret a situation. One example of this is a huntsman seen crouching along the treeline of a wood at the edge of a field as a fox walks cautiously toward him. Hounds are following a scent in the wood itself and a couple of hounds are casting for a scent just near the huntsman. They are busy and have not seen the fox which is very close by!

The huntsman is crouched so that he does not disturb the fox from what it is doing (this would reflect traditional practices and a huntsman's understanding of how foxes behave) He doesn't call hounds, just crouches very, very quietly. What people see in this situation would almost entirely depend on their perspective: a monitor may see that the huntsman is trying to encourage the fox to either break cover so that he can call hounds onto it or that he is hoping that fox will turn into the wood so that hounds can pick up the scent. A traditional hunts person might see that the huntsman is simply allowing a fox to make it's own decision and hounds the same or that the huntsman thinks hounds are on a particular scent in the wood and does not wish to disrupt them. In the post ban era some viewers might also see that the huntsman believes that hounds are hunting a line in the wood and he deliberately does not wish to call their attention to a fox very close by.

Who is right? Well it seems like it would depend on what you want to think and post on social media to me. This is only one example of course and there are many ways in which opposing opinions will never share common ground.

 

[Follysmum]

What I would like to know is if they are following a trail why the hell do they go up and down the same track numerous times. They go past my field then back and forth, then stand around and do the same again.

 

[HobleytheTB]

What I would like to know is if they are following a trail why the hell do they go up and down the same track numerous times. They go past my field then back and forth, then stand around and do the same again.

Quite. When they come by mine I can see in the distance the field going one way, and a couple of red coats taking the hounds the opposite way. They don't seem to care about being subtle with it.

 

[pixie]

I certainly know of several land owners who have expressly told the hunt that they are not allowed on their land at all, and yet it still happens... Its nothing about getting lost in communication. Its the fact that they don't care.

 

[Orangehorse]

I'm struggling Amymay. Can you explain what the difference is between this and cub hunting? Where a covert is ringed with followers all told to make a lot of noise to drive the cubs back into the wood, then the hounds are put in to slaughter them?

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Except the foxes have (had) a chance to evade the hounds, and usually did. It was always MUCH harder for hounds to catch a fox than non foxhunters could imagine. Hounds would be put into a cover and go through it, find nothing and pulled out to go somewhere else, and often riding away and looking back a fox would be seen trotting out of the cover and going in the opposite direction. There never, ever was the slaughter that people imagined, and even having a found a fox it was hunted by scent not sight and there was a lot to get in the way of the scent.

Not the same as putting live animals in a small contained area in order to be killed.

 

[ycbm]

Except the foxes have (had) a chance to evade the hounds, and usually did. It was always MUCH harder for hounds to catch a fox than non foxhunters could imagine. Hounds would be put into a cover and go through it, find nothing and pulled out to go somewhere else, and often riding away and looking back a fox would be seen trotting out of the cover and going in the opposite direction. There never, ever was the slaughter that people imagined, and even having a found a fox it was hunted by scent not sight and there was a lot to get in the way of the scent.

Not the same as putting live animals in a small contained area in order to be killed.

I'm not sure you read what I wrote. Those cubs has no chance at all of evading the hounds. They were driven back into the cover every time they tried to leave it, the earth had been stopped, and the hounds were recalled after the cubs were all dead.

It was exactly the same as putting a cub in with hounds, just putting hounds in with cubs.

Please don't start with the 'it's ok to chase them because most of them got away' justification. I don't accept it being right to chase a fox just because you don't catch it.

These arguments were all done to death at the time of the ban, over a decade ago. They should now be irrelevant, because it's illegal.


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[Clodagh]

It was exactly the same as putting a cub in with hounds, just putting hounds in with cubs.
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Incidents like this one are always going to rehash the old arguments, and there is no point trying to quash debate. When hunting was legal cubbing was deemed acceptable by those that took part. Remember they were full grown foxes by September/October, not little dots like the ones chucked in with the pack on the video. Foxes do need controlling. Cubbing split up the litters and cut down on the number of foxes in the area.

I no longer hunt and we control our foxes with rifles. It is a lot more efficient and there are far more foxes being killed now in what were hunting areas.

 

[Orangehorse]

Ah well, different experiences. I am only relating MY experiences, not what you witnessed. Maybe the farmer had requested that everything was killed.

I agree that this should now be irrelevant because it is illegal. I haven't been hunting for years and years anyway, it was something I did 40 years ago.

People are astonished that the guilty man got a light sentence, I was too tbh. But it isn't illegal to kill a fox, people still set traps, and shoot them, I know farmers that do both.

 

[fburton]

... But it isn't illegal to kill a fox, people still set traps, and shoot them, I know farmers that do both.

Presumably certain methods are permitted and others proscribed? I find it hard to believe that anyone could deliberately torture a fox to death with impunity.

 

[Sandstone1]

Foxhunting should have been banned out right. Not this wishy washy law which is regularly broken.
far better to be just completely banned. Then everyone knows where they are.

 

[palo1]

Foxhunting should have been banned out right. Not this wishy washy law which is regularly broken.
far better to be just completely banned. Then everyone knows where they are.

Well yes, except that it was essentially impossible to create that law as it would have had a number of unmanageable unintended consequences and there was, and remains considerable debate about the cruelty involved with fox-hunting. Now that hunting with hounds is banned, foxes are hunted still by other means, many of which are less than humane. I wonder what people thinks happen to those foxes in towns and cities that are caught 'humanely': where do they go and how are they disposed of? I know that some are simply released in rural areas to take their chances. That is actually a pretty mean thing to do to a territorial predator. Not to mention the many other ways of fox control. It's not a very simple issue to be fair.

 

[fburton]

I wonder what people thinks happen to those foxes in towns and cities that are caught 'humanely': where do they go and how are they disposed of?

Is culling actually done to any significant extent? According to https://www.bbcwildlife.org.uk/urban-fox ...

Should urban foxes be controlled?
No. Most urban fox populations regulate their own numbers, by limiting the number of cubs they produce each year. This they do remarkably successfully, and the cubs that survive to adulthood almost exactly replace the number of adult foxes that die each year. If you try to cull them, the foxes respond by producing more cubs to replace the foxes that have been killed. So you do not achieve anything. Furthermore, foxes in urban areas do not cause a big enough problem that they need to be culled; the vast majority of people in cities are either indifferent to the presence of foxes or welcome them.

Have urban foxes ever been controlled?
Yes. In the 1950s the Ministry of Agriculture and Food (as it was then) started to kill foxes in London boroughs. But control operations have now mainly been abandoned as a waste of time and money. While the commonest techniques were trapping or shooting, in Plymouth, a local pack of foxhounds was called in to kill foxes living in the city. Fortunately, riding to hounds in our cities never caught on as a modern-day field sport.

 

[Nasicus]

Makes you wonder, if everyone is hunting according to law, why they train the hounds on fox scent. You'd think they'd use something distinctive from a fox and strong enough to keep them on the correct trail, surely? They've certainly had long enough to have several generations of new hounds being trained to follow a different scent. Would certainly reduce potential for 'accidents'...

 

[Tiddlypom]

I know of incidents where people have been outraged by the presence of the hunt on 'their' land or nearby yet in reality the owner of the land has given express permission for the hunt.

Equally, I know first hand of many incidents of the local pack trespassing on land that they have been specifically told to keep off by the farmer. Eg a former equine vet of mine, whose husband is a farmer. The hunt were told they could cross most of his land, but absolutely not certain parts of it, for perfectly good farming reasons. So the field trashed over the land that they were told to keep off. The farmer saw them and had a right set to with them, while his wife, who recognised some of her clients in the field, hid in an outbuilding.

Many local farmers have similar tales to tell of trespass.