Thoughts South Herefordshire hunt.

Hunts attitude really does seem to vary. Those I have been out with have always been really strict on the demarcations of land that they are and aren't allowed on, and positioned people appropriately to stop any hounds going where they shouldn't.

I've seen hounds go where they shouldn't once, I'm not really sure what caused it as we were still on the road at the time and they weren't supposed to be far of it. The situation was sorted asap many apologies were made including visits afterwards so it's nice to know that some do take such instances seriously.
 
ycbm said:
I have never heard a worse argument in support of hunting than 'trained nurses sometimes harm tiny babies' and 'football coaches sometimes sexually assault boys'. What planet are you on to think of making such an odious comparison to justify your activities?!?
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I think you do actually realise that the point Fellewell was making was in response to someone saying that people who enjoy cruelty to animals are more likely to look for jobs in hunt service.
My husband has hunted hounds (foot pack) and been a terrierman (foxhounds) for many years and he was never cruel. He never tortured anything, everything was done correctly, legally and with respect for the quarry.
 
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Clodagh said:
I think you do actually realise that the point Fellewell was making was in response to someone saying that people who enjoy cruelty to animals are more likely to look for jobs in hunt service.
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No I didn't realise that, I had not read Fburton's point that s/he was replying to. If I had, I would not have written that response.

Fellewelle, I should have read what you were replying to, my second paragraph wasn't appropriate. I apologise.
 
One hunt was so set on getting the kill that it didn’t call hounds off even when the fox took them through a churchyard. Though of course, the hounds shouldn’t be chasing the fox anyway, should they, even if the vicar had given permission for hounds to come through the graveyard (she hadn’t). Another oopsie whoopsie captured on film, though this time the fox is believed to have escaped.


I’m not sure really why I keep posting these videos. We all know that there are packs which flout the Hunting Act on a regular basis. Reform yourselves or pay the price.
 
I personally hold no respect for sabs. IME they are a group of thugs who hide behind a screen of standing against animal cruelty, when in reality they couldn't give a toss about the animals welfare. It is simply a class war to them. I would also caution that not all the "evidence" sabs present is 100% accurate.

Edit to add - not that I'm disputing the evidence in this case. However I have seen sabs greatly exaggerate and alter footage to suit their own means. E.g. filming a fox that the hounds are on, that had already been dispatched by a gun. The sabs conveniently left out the part about the fox already being dead before the hounds got near it.
 
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I agree about the legistlation being poorly drawn up.

If I had been making the law I would have forgotten about "bans" and simply said that the only hunting allowed with a pack of hounds was hunting an artificial scent. There wouldn't then have been all these woolly exemptions nor let the hounds continue to hunt fox scent.

And I loved my hunting when I was young, taught me so much about crossing the country, seeing the pack of hounds work. Yes, so the world becomes artificial, but that I'm afraid is life now.
 
Equine_Dream said:
I personally hold no respect for sabs. IME they are a group of thugs who hide behind a screen of standing against animal cruelty, when in reality they couldn't give a toss about the animals welfare. It is simply a class war to them. I would also caution that not all the "evidence" sabs present is 100% accurate.

Edit to add - not that I'm disputing the evidence in this case. However I have seen sabs greatly exaggerate and alter footage to suit their own means. E.g. filming a fox that the hounds are on, that had already been dispatched by a gun. The sabs conveniently left out the part about the fox already being dead before the hounds got near it.
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Sabs and monitors are different. The evidence came from monitors. And as was said previously, if fox hunting and the associated cruelty that goes with it (e.g. what this thread is about) didn't happen then there would be no need for sabs or monitors. There is thuggery from sabs and hunt-people, that's not in dispute.
 
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My incoherent jumbled thoughts on hunting! But in short I sit on the fence.

I’ve hunted (only a small amount) both pre- and post- ban. Purely with the purpose of riding and bringing on whatever horse I had at the time. Quite frankly I found it all a bit rubbish and boring (although I completely appreciate that is because I’m not really into the ‘art’ of hunting). I far far prefer proper drag hunting for the purpose of educating horses across country. But it’s a subtly different ‘sport’.

Killing Foxes whilst hunting. Actually yes I do find the act quite unsavoury really, particularly if you reach the point where the Fox has gone to ground yet gets dug out. I’m not 100% sure where I sit on this if I’m honest but now the law makes it illegal then I’m more anti than pro I guess.

I live in big hunt country so interact daily with strongly pro hunt people. I can honestly say that, individually, these people are so animal welfare and conservation oriented - and hunting is such an integral part of the community that I struggle with being too ‘anti’. That said, when they get together for the act of hunting, I can so very much appreciate how a huge part of this country can perceive them and be alienated. They cause chaos, and not only chaos but they can be so self-entitled and do not give a flying fig at times - last year some good friends of mine livelihood was put at huge risk by the actions of the hunt. And yes, they are actively hunting Fox and they are arrogant enough to try and get away with it.

Maybe I’m just a hypocrite, who knows. I very much hope what the disgusting Hereford did isn’t common practise but do you know what, I’m not sure Id lay lots of money on it - certainly round me fox populations are encouraged, fed etc.
 
BeckyFlowers said:
Sabs and monitors are different. The evidence came from monitors. And as was said previously, if fox hunting and the associated cruelty that goes with it (e.g. what this thread is about) didn't happen then there would be no need for sabs or monitors. There is thuggery from sabs and hunt-people, that's not in dispute.
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I am fully aware of the difference hence why i said sabs. I actually think sabs would still very much carry on being violent and disruptive regardless of whether illegal hunting was happening. As I said in my experience it has nothing to do with animal welfare and is rather about "sticking it to the toffs"
 
Clodagh said:
I think you do actually realise that the point Fellewell was making was in response to someone saying that people who enjoy cruelty to animals are more likely to look for jobs in hunt service.
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I didn't say that. My point was that people who enjoy cruelty to animals are more likely to pursue any job that give them the opportunity for cruelty without being detected. Hunt service could be one, but obviously there are others.
 
Equine_Dream said:
I am fully aware of the difference hence why i said sabs. I actually think sabs would still very much carry on being violent and disruptive regardless of whether illegal hunting was happening. As I said in my experience it has nothing to do with animal welfare and is rather about "sticking it to the toffs"
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In which case there would be no public sympathy for the sabs would there. It would be like a bunch of thuggish protestors turning up to a tennis match. Thank goodness for the law abiding, well behaved monitors who film everything that they do and report anything untoward to the police. I am finding this thread interesting, and am pleased to see how many people are sticking their head above the parapet, given this type of forum.
 
Unfortunately sabs are very good at painting themselves whiter than white to the general public, who in most cases are very ignorant of hunting. The huntsman are evil animal torturers and the sabs are defending the poor innocent animals from these evil scumbags.
The reality is quite different. I would like to invite those who believe sabs are amazing animal loving saints, to have witnessed the scenes at our local park's boxing day meet. This pack are very much a trail hunt. They have not killed a fox in the last 5 seasons and the last time was a genuine accident (fox bolted directly in front of the hounds). I would definitely not hunt with them if I thought they were deliberately out to hunt foxes.
In any case, boxing day saw a group of masked thugs descend at the meet. There was a great deal of screaming and shouting and waving boards in the air. Riders were told that "they should be dragged off their horses and given a good kicking", myself and other female riders were called "cruel bitches" and "disgusting sl*gs". A young rider in her early teens was told they "hope she falls off and breaks her neck". They screamed and shouted in horses faces and waved signs deliberately trying to spook horses, and hounds were kicked. Not sure what kind of "animal lovers" would behave in this way.
These are the so called animal saving sabs we have to deal with.
I am glad there are monitors who do keep tabs on illegal hunting and other activities through peaceful methods. It's a great pity that sabs dont seem to follow their example.
 
I was so sickened about all this. Living on a farm which supports the local hunt (nothing to do with me and I have no say) I know full well what go’s on really hunting. It didn’t stop me from feeling really uneasy and freaked out when I was invited and went along for a day. No doubt the riding is awesome, galloping behind 50 other horses across open land is mind blowingly fun....but, I just found the whole thing weird, bizarre not right, freakish I don’t know! I can’t see how normal people can get so excited at the thought of tearing an animal up (luckily I didn’t see anything that day) the jeering and shouting was really disturbing. :(
Not something I’ll be doing again
 
palo1 said:
Oh dear. I can't imagine what kind of day it was if there was 'jeering and shouting' - that isn't at all usually part of a day's hunting. I am not surprised that was disturbing!! How odd.
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Palo, generally you talk a lot of sense but also you come out with some compete rubbish! The trouble is with the hunting debate is that there is so much propoganda on both sides, and sometimes you wonder if people really believe what they are writing.
I am not anti hunting, I would go if I didn't live in such a built up area BUT surely poiuytrewq is talking of the hollering and encouraging sounds that hunts do make to encourage the hounds. Though I say it myself I have got a helluva holloa and used to love being on point, watching the fox break cover and calling hounds on.
Pro hunters tend to get so patronising, and you haven't been so bad up to now.
 
Why would anyone need to holloa post ban? Or am I missing the point? You can’t holloa a scent trail?

From the
https://www.huntingact.org/hunting/fox-hunting/

If the hounds lost the scent (‘line’) or ‘checked’ they would search around or “cast” to re-find the line. The huntsman may have assisted the hounds by taking them to where he thought the line would be found and cast the hounds himself. Sometimes hunt followers would assist the huntsman by signaling to him that they had seen the fox. This was carried out by use of a high pitched shout or “holloa” (pronounced “holler”) and accompanied by a raised cap or arm pointing in the direction of where the fox had run. Occasionally a whistle would be blown instead of a holloa. The huntsman would then take the hounds over to the signaler in an attempt to pick up the line and if successful the hunting would continue.

I was not at all surprised when the travelling circus of car followers loudly halloaed a fox which had slipped out of covert during the 2017/18 season in front of me. It seemed just like old times ;). To be fair, the huntsman ignored the calls, and carried on encouraging hounds in the covert, and they didn’t pick up the scent of that fox. Though after they had gone from earshot, I am reliably informed that they went on to have a ‘screamer’ of a day in pursuit of a fox which took them well out of the cleared area, and led to the master’s phone ringing off the hook with calls from irate landowners.
 
Sandstone1 said:
i dont think its one sided. Ive no doubt that there is bad behaviour by monitors on occasion.
However, too wrongs dont make a right and however you try to justify it by bringing up other actions of cruelty and bad behaviour this sort of thing cant and wont be tolerated.
The camera doesnt lie and in this day and age with camera phones and go pros etc its much easier to catch this sort of thing.
There is absolutely no justification for cruelty like this.
Its time fox hunting was completely banned in the same way as bear baiting, cock fighting and the like.
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I agree, the activities you cite are cruel.

Hunting has been banned, at least in the form you mention. It is still perfectly legal to control foxes and cruelty takes many forms. The urban fox numbers are increasing and there is a need for control so foxes can be snared and shot by almost anyone. Snares are a real risk for non-target species and there is no close season. A fox may be trapped for a long period without food or water and if it has young will certainly injure itself trying to escape. Both males and females raise the young.

Hunting with hounds was always subject to a close season, it began in autumn when the young were mature and numbers were increased so needed to be dispersed and it ceased in spring when breeding began. If landowners had a particular problem foxes were flushed and shot, this was fairly quick. If foxes were caught by hounds death was instantaneous.

Culling is always a difficult subject but unfortunately space is at a premium and all species need to be considered for there to be a balance in nature.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Why would anyone need to holloa post ban? Or am I missing the point? You can’t holloa a scent trail?

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I don't hunt now, so my yelling my head off was pre ban. You could still holloa now, if you had laid a line out of a covert and only a few hounds were on it and you wanted to attract the rest of the pack a holla would bring them over, I imagine.
 
Fellewell said:
Hunting has been banned, at least in the form you mention.
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It has been banned but it has not stopped. It is well known that many hunts are still openly hunting fox, especially if they hunt weekdays.

Until hunting foxes is stopped, sabbing will continue. When it stops they'll move to shooting and if they are genuine animal lovers and not just class warriors, on to fishing.

Drags hunts have only ever been sabbed very occasionally and by mistake. Stop ALL hunts hunting fox and the sab problem wil fade away.

Start tomorrow by insisting that from now on all trails are to be laid strong and without fox scent, and all packs taught the recall levels found with drag packs.


The urban fox numbers are increasing and there is a need for control so foxes can be snared and shot by almost anyone.
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Urban foxes have existed in big numbers for at least forty years. They are not a reason to support fox hunting with hounds.

Urban foxes are not snared. Whoever set them would be lynched by the local cat owners. They aren't shot in their urban environment either.

In this area, they are trapped and released by the RSPCA into sheep farming country, where they are noticeable by their lack of fear of humans and their enormous size. They are shot within days of release because they take lambs.

The RSPCA ought to shoot them themselves, but the public would stop donating funds if they did, so they can't.



Snares are a real risk for non-target species and there is no close season. A fox may be trapped for a long period without food or water and if it has young will certainly injure itself trying to escape. Both males and females raise the young.
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Snares are utterly disgusting and should have been banned along time ago.




.
 
ycbm said:
Urban foxes have existed in big numbers for at least forty years. They are not a reason to support fox hunting with hounds.

Urban foxes are not snared. Whoever set them would be lynched by the local cat owners. They aren't shot in their urban environment either.

In this area, they are trapped and released by the RSPCA into sheep farming country, where they are noticeable by their lack of fear of humans and their enormous size. They are shot within days of release because they take lambs.

The RSPCA ought to shoot them themselves, but the public would stop donating funds if they did, so they can't.
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Are the urban foxes that are trapped and release the equivalent of "rogue foxes" in the countryside?
 
They take lamb when the native foxes don't, I'm not sure why. Possibly because lambs around here are patrolled at night and country foxes are wary of man. These are not, I've seen them trotting casually up and down the road outside my gate in broad daylight. They're very easy to shoot because of that, theyre completely unwary.

In that respect, they're certainly rogue.
 
fburton said:
Are the urban foxes that are trapped and release the equivalent of "rogue foxes" in the countryside?
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They are a meance, they are starving as they have no idea how to hunt and no established territory, they come and take chickens from the garden while you are there. Only thing is they are very easy to shoot.
 
ycbm said:
They take lamb when the native foxes don't, I'm not sure why. Possibly because lambs around here are patrolled at night and country foxes are wary of man. These are not, I've seen them trotting casually up and down the road outside my gate in broad daylight. They're very easy to shoot because of that, theyre completely unwary.

In that respect, they're certainly rogue.
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My question was about why certain urban foxes are trapped and released - sorry if I wasn't clear. Are these individuals trapped because they are a specific nuisance? How does this square with what I quoted previously in this (https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/thoughts-south-herefordshire-hunt.777004/post-14024588) post?

I have to say trapping and releasing in the country sounds a very misguided policy to me. Much better to shoot them if this it is really necessary to get rid of them.
 
I've no idea FB. All I know is that in I live near a small market town, and every lambing season the RSPCA release/dump a number of foxes near a tiny nearby village. Word goes around, the shooters sit out for a couple of nights, and they're all shot within a week of release. They have no idea about the danger of being near man, or how to hunt anything but the easiest of prey (newborn lamb).

I assume they have been reported as a nuisance down in town or nearby towns, and trapped.

They are extraordinarily huge!


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We have an animal charity near us. The local farmer who shoots knows when they have released them because they make their way to his birds and he shoots them, so all that 'rehab' has gone to waste. I have also seen a fox caught in a trap waiting to be shot, not nice.
 
ycbm said:
Until hunting foxes is stopped, sabbing will continue. When it stops they'll move to shooting and if they are genuine animal lovers and not just class warriors, on to fishing.

Drags hunts have only ever been sabbed very occasionally and by mistake. Stop ALL hunts hunting fox and the sab problem wil fade away.
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I'm sorry but I think you're very naive if you believe this.
 
Equine_Dream said:
I'm sorry but I think you're very naive if you believe this.
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After giving up fox hunting, I spent many years drag hunting and was never sabbed once. It's much easier to sab a drag hunt because they openly publish exactly when and where they will be meeting. Yes I do believe it and no I am not naive.

But I tell you what, prove I'm wrong. Stop all hunting of fox with hounds, both deliberate and accidental, and see.


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ycbm said:
After giving up fox hunting, I spent many years drag hunting and was never sabbed once. It's much easier to sab a drag hunt because they openly publish exactly when and where they will be meeting. Yes I do believe it and no I am not naive.
But I tell you what, prove I'm wrong. Stop all hunting of fox with hounds, both deliberate and accidental, and see.
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Foxhunting packs - by and large - are trail hunting. It's a bit different to drag hunting because people who went foxhunting generally preferred the longer days and slower pace. Drag huting was always seen as those who liked a fast point with plenty of jumping and not much time standing around, gossiping with friends and occasionally pulling out the flask. So trails tend to be more circular, over more varied terrain - and the whole day lasts longer. Obviously there CAN be accidents if hounds get a bit too far fom the huntsman and find a trail for themselves. But sometimes these claims of hounds killing foxes are made up!

Fox not killed.jpg
 
JanetGeorge said:
Foxhunting packs - by and large - are trail hunting. It's a bit different to drag hunting because people who went foxhunting generally preferred the longer days and slower pace. Drag huting was always seen as those who liked a fast point with plenty of jumping and not much time standing around, gossiping with friends and occasionally pulling out the flask. So trails tend to be more circular, over more varied terrain - and the whole day lasts longer. Obviously there CAN be accidents if hounds get a bit too far fom the huntsman and find a trail for themselves. But sometimes these claims of hounds killing foxes are made up!

View attachment 33581
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Exactly. They are a different kettle of fish. Drag hunts may not get sabbed but law abiding trail hunts still do.
My local pack are perfectly legal, and the hounds are well trained. If the sabs had done their homework they would have known we had not caught a fox for 5 seasons, yet we still had trouble and bullying from them.
They dont care about protecting animals, they care about causing trouble. Nothing else. I don't believe for one second sabbing would stop, even if all hunts switched to drag hunting. It's a class war. Foxes are just the front they hide behind.
 
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