Thoughts?

Haven’t read all of the replies but Shivers springs to mind to me. The holdin the leg up and shaking is a classic symptom and also being bad for the farrier. It can also be a secondary condition to something else. I’d probably get him sedated and get farrier to remove the one show and try him barefoot. The fact he is a nicer person after being ridden suggests stiffness as the ridden work clearly benefits him. I’d probably get a Vet to do a lameness work up and also to access him neurologically. Did you friend not mention any of this?!
 
Your horse has a lot of similarities with mine who is a mild wobbler although I see you have this covered with neuro exam and neck / back xrays. I went through a phase with mine where he could not have his front feet picked up at all, and although he was barefoot I thought that eventually he would need to be pts through lack of trimming. Sedation with sedalin or veterinary IV made no difference, feet remained firmly on the ground. It took a lot of patient retraining with bribery to overcome this. We still have some issues and need to make sure the back feet stand square to give him a secure base to pick up the front feet as he typically stands with them close / touching. It's always a 2 person job even to pick out the feet.

You've done an awful lot for this boy already hope you get to the bottom of things.
 
Sadly it work up time .
He’s showing several serious indicators for pain .
Ask me to guess and would say Kissing spines and or PSD .
Good luck with this I have been here it is difficult .
It’s best to know .
 
spotty_pony2 said:
Haven’t read all of the replies but Shivers springs to mind to me. The holdin the leg up and shaking is a classic symptom and also being bad for the farrier. It can also be a secondary condition to something else. I’d probably get him sedated and get farrier to remove the one show and try him barefoot. The fact he is a nicer person after being ridden suggests stiffness as the ridden work clearly benefits him. I’d probably get a Vet to do a lameness work up and also to access him neurologically. Did you friend not mention any of this?!
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I had one that I suspect had shivers, holding the leg up, horse aggressive, food aggressive when other horses were nearby, would buck but was generally good to ride, chiro once said he looked/seemed relaxed but his muscles were tense, he was good for the farrier, though. He was better with more work than he got when I had him.
 
Goldenstar said:
Sadly it work up time .
He’s showing several serious indicators for pain .
Ask me to guess and would say Kissing spines and or PSD .
Good luck with this I have been here it is difficult .
It’s best to know .
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When you say work up? More than he’s had?
I need to be a little cautious money wise here. 😬
 
Patterdale said:
I missed that you’d already x rayed sorry.

Have you done a bute trial?
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Yes, twice actually. It's an easy something i often do if I'm feeling a horse isn't quite right, however then the vet said I needed to hit it harder and do more bute for longer. Neither made much difference, maybe slightly but not a lot to get excited about.
 
I think, where I'm at is maybe needing to decide if the fact he seems ok to ride, to an extent makes the rest of it worth keeping trying.
A friend has said if he's ok to ride, why not just keep going? I can't quite be ok with that as i look at him and see so much wrong when I'm not sat on him. I've never been one to feel happy with a horse that's not right.
I look at my old TB whos retired due to *probably, agian never 100% confirmed spinal impingment/ neck although x-rays and bone scans were never totally conclusive with him either- He moves so much better 😬 I don't have to pre plan which hand he needs to be in and how we are going to negotiate a gate etc, he swings round like a regular horse, but i know there is a problem and so I'm not comfortable riding. (he was also grumpy and didn't appear to like work)

So am i at a point where i call it a day and PTS, we have tried and treated the possibilities but i *think he's worsening, certainly no better.
Do I sedate and try to shoe again, giving me another 6 weeks to play around with.
 
poiuytrewq said:
I think, where I'm at is maybe needing to decide if the fact he seems ok to ride, to an extent makes the rest of it worth keeping trying.
A friend has said if he's ok to ride, why not just keep going? I can't quite be ok with that as i look at him and see so much wrong when I'm not sat on him. I've never been one to feel happy with a horse that's not right.
I look at my old TB whos retired due to *probably, agian never 100% confirmed spinal impingment/ neck although x-rays and bone scans were never totally conclusive with him either- He moves so much better 😬 I don't have to pre plan which hand he needs to be in and how we are going to negotiate a gate etc, he swings round like a regular horse, but i know there is a problem and so I'm not comfortable riding. (he was also grumpy and didn't appear to like work)

So am i at a point where i call it a day and PTS, we have tried and treated the possibilities but i *think he's worsening, certainly no better.
Do I sedate and try to shoe again, giving me another 6 weeks to play around with.
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That’s miserable for you both, v sorry. But if he is objectively getting worse, despite spending considerable time and money on vet investigations.....PTS is fair.
Would he ride barefoot or with a cheap set of boots for another couple of months, until some warmer weather and fresher grass gives a boost?
Don’t know where you are, but currently we’ve had relentless, bitter east wind and minus temperatures for c.3 weeks, and EVERYONE /THING has become tensed up and stiff against the cold!
Perhaps seriously upgrade your rugs, load of vitamin E, hack him out steadily as often as you can - and see if that’s appreciated, first?
 
Exasperated said:
That’s miserable for you both, v sorry. But if he is objectively getting worse, despite spending considerable time and money on vet investigations.....PTS is fair.
Would he ride barefoot or with a cheap set of boots for another couple of months, until some warmer weather and fresher grass gives a boost?
Don’t know where you are, but currently we’ve had relentless, bitter east wind and minus temperatures for c.3 weeks, and EVERYONE /THING has become tensed up and stiff against the cold!
Perhaps seriously upgrade your rugs, load of vitamin E, hack him out steadily as often as you can - and see if that’s appreciated, first?
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It is a bit :(
I have no idea how/if he'd manage barefoot. It's something I'm not against trying. We still do need to be able to take the shoes off and trim though, although the old one did sound a little clanky today on the road so may not stay on much longer anyway. I have provisionally booked the farrier again for next week- depending on what the vet says this and if we can liaise with sedation etc.
He is well rugged, always toasty. Weirdly he now accepts being well rugged without sweating up, I'm not sure how/why or if that's a good or bad sign but it is a change.

I hacked him this morning and again got back with the mind set of he's absolutely fine, nothing wrong with him, as we he came in, tacked up, no teeth or temper involved, then jig jogged out of the yard and stormed round the village nicely

I'll order more vitamin E, Can't hurt can it.

I'm SO confused by him.

:oops:
 
Feel for you @poiuytrewq - its exhausting when they aren't right and you can't find the problem :(

I second ulcers, but then if he has ulcers there must be a reason why (pain somewhere IMO) Has the vet scanned his suspensories? I have 2 friends (inc. my own mare) where suspensory pain was missed by several vets because no lameness, just awkwardness and pain signs. My mare also became bad to trim/shoe. Then again, also understand if you've spent enough and don't want to keep investigating.

Possibly not helpful but years ago, where I use to work we had a very unpredictable mare, she came from a dealer but would randomly bolt while leading, bite. Fine one minute and not the next. A few of us thought trauma but it was very random episodes, sometimes she would be super sweet. I'm told it got worse, she had investigations and it was a brain tumour.
 
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No I've not scoped for ulcers. Not that I'm against doing so but Ive always felt there is a reason for the ulcers and usually (imo) you need to find and treat that first, or it becomes an endless round of ulcers returning and being treated.
I do know of a horse who was vicious, until put on gastroguard then he had a total personality transplant. However the second he was off it the old him returned. I see little point in spending out on ulcer treatment without identifing a cause, especially in a horse who is out every day, ad lib forage etc. Does that make sense?! I'm really not dissing the idea.

Suspensories I just don't know, I've been so convinced it's not leg related by the way he moves, which is hard to describe but will certainly run it past the vet this week.
 
From the comments on shoeing, not backing up, difficulty turning, and a few others, my thoughts was suspensories.
My boy wasn't 'lame' with his, well he was it's just that it was bilateral so couldn't really see it. Again, another pony on the yard was diagnosed with DSLD but it took the owner a long time to see the issues as bilaterally lame. She couldn't pick up feet for the farrier as just got too sore.
When he had his back x-rayed did you do any other joints - hocks etc? And did they do any nerve blocks? As it wasn't until we started nerve blocking that you could really see my boys issues.
 
poiuytrewq said:
No I've not scoped for ulcers. Not that I'm against doing so but Ive always felt there is a reason for the ulcers and usually (imo) you need to find and treat that first, or it becomes an endless round of ulcers returning and being treated.
I do know of a horse who was vicious, until put on gastroguard then he had a total personality transplant. However the second he was off it the old him returned. I see little point in spending out on ulcer treatment without identifing a cause, especially in a horse who is out every day, ad lib forage etc. Does that make sense?! I'm really not dissing the idea.

Suspensories I just don't know, I've been so convinced it's not leg related by the way he moves, which is hard to describe but will certainly run it past the vet this week.
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Well, yes, that's what I thought. But after 6 months of trying to get to the bottom of what was wrong with my mare last year, we scoped, and she had them. Before we did that we x rayed back, hocks, feet, then MRId hind suspensories - nothing really found. She has always had ad lib haylage, and regular turn out. I keep mine at home, so I know what she has/does. The previous year, we did have some saddle issues, and ended up replacing her saddle. A new racing yard with 70+ horses also moved in next door - previously mine had been the only horses in the hamlet. The only treatment she has had was for ulcers, and she is now moving properly again, so fingers crossed, she's sorted. It's really not that costly to scope, and even if it rules them out, it's worth doing in my opinion.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Suspensories I just don't know, I've been so convinced it's not leg related by the way he moves, which is hard to describe but will certainly run it past the vet this week.
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I could of written this about my mare with suspensory issues, lovely hock action and movement behind. :( original vet actually said 'won't be anything wrong with her suspensories, look at how she moves' how wrong was he.. Fingers crossed it isn't that with your gelding. 🙏
 
poiuytrewq said:
Oh gosh, So I'll try and answer all questions! please nudge if i miss because I know how irritating it is when people post for help but ignore the questions!!

Horse first- He is full up 16.2 approx aged 14 years.
He was we believe good to shoe but friend was at work and used to leave him in, that farrier didn't mention anything but has sadly since moved away as i was going to get him out to try. He stood perfectly here the first time with my own long term farrier, was difficult but ok the second and just not do-able last- Hence starting investigating.
I think its less of a this leg is the issue, more that that leg was the last one to be done and by that point he'd really lost the plot a bit. The farrier then couldn't get any leg- fore or hind.
We are going to sedate and try again but that's something the vet wanted to leave a bit to see if medicating his back helped and to let all that settle.

I've tried a decent dose of a good quality Vitamin E, I keep him warm, he always wears a quarter sheet ridden.

As above he's had a neuro work up. He's been x-rayed from his head to his tail, x-rays were clean, particularly his neck, no impingments.
His SI actually looks really good on x-rays.
His pelvis has been scanned internally and externally
his back has been scanned.
There are areas which looked a little bit odd, no touching processes or anything obvious but we injected two lumbar areas and the SI area as a precaution.

My grass is not Rye no, I expect bits have self seeded but in general we sewed a meadow mix designed for ponies.

Previous owner has said to some of my queries "ah that's normal" or hes always done that- The blowing for example, apparently he's always done that but that has now stopped.
The aggression, no, She said he was a bigger version of our old horse who in the stable he is. He did however, thinking back nip when I went to see him.
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Have you done the May-Davis protocol x rays for ECVM? An awful lot of your horse's oddities are the same as one of mine, although was a couple of years younger when issues first started to show, particularly the down hill, aggression, holding hind up...Also had full head and body scan, neck x rays, bute trials, always past all neuro tests. Eventually learned about he weird angle x ray thing, and bingo. I'd had this horse for 10 years prior to this - there'd been the odd thing, stumbling, being a bit dodgy to handle in the field, but nothing that really rang alarm bells. We started investigating when the horse who lived to jump started stopping. Spent thousands on diagnostics but a couple of £50 x rays eventually solved the puzzle, Must confess, I had never even heard of ECVM...
 
mavandkaz said:
From the comments on shoeing, not backing up, difficulty turning, and a few others, my thoughts was suspensories.
My boy wasn't 'lame' with his, well he was it's just that it was bilateral so couldn't really see it. Again, another pony on the yard was diagnosed with DSLD but it took the owner a long time to see the issues as bilaterally lame. She couldn't pick up feet for the farrier as just got too sore.
When he had his back x-rayed did you do any other joints - hocks etc? And did they do any nerve blocks? As it wasn't until we started nerve blocking that you could really see my boys issues.
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Hormonal Filly said:
I could of written this about my mare with suspensory issues, lovely hock action and movement behind. :( original vet actually said 'won't be anything wrong with her suspensories, look at how she moves' how wrong was he.. Fingers crossed it isn't that with your gelding. 🙏
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Also think this is something to consider. I had one with DSLD who appeared sound until nerve blocked, again it was bilateral, both hinds. He stood camped under which I think is more typical rather than camped out, and also used to try to sit on stuff, I thought he was just itchy and may have a parasite problem but he was trying to relieve the weight off his legs. I could tell there was something wrong when riding as he became sharp and reactive when he'd previously been very laid back, also wasn't pushing properly from behind. He was difficult for the farrier and eventually unable to be trimmed at all.

If the farrier is booked, see if you can do some work on lifting up the back legs in case there is anything he will tolerate better like keeping the leg low or more forward etc. Bear in mind in case he is a wobbler despite the xrays, they can become very unstable with sedation.
 
poiuytrewq said:
It is a bit :(
I have no idea how/if he'd manage barefoot. It's something I'm not against trying. We still do need to be able to take the shoes off and trim though, although the old one did sound a little clanky today on the road so may not stay on much longer anyway. I have provisionally booked the farrier again for next week- depending on what the vet says this and if we can liaise with sedation etc.
He is well rugged, always toasty. Weirdly he now accepts being well rugged without sweating up, I'm not sure how/why or if that's a good or bad sign but it is a change.

I hacked him this morning and again got back with the mind set of he's absolutely fine, nothing wrong with him, as we he came in, tacked up, no teeth or temper involved, then jig jogged out of the yard and stormed round the village nicely

I'll order more vitamin E, Can't hurt can it.

I'm SO confused by him.

:oops:
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I didn’t mean barefoot or boots as a cure, rather to give you more leeway while making up your mind. If he has to be barefoot because cannot hold his hooves long enough for shoeing - certainly has a problem!
I guess it will come down to what YOU can tolerate / compromise on in a horse, because it gets expensive and soul destroying continuing to ferret for answers:
Basically, unless your vet has muffed the earlier investigations, whatever this horse’s issues, seems most unlikely there will be a single, magic bullet solution.
We do what we can, can you live with his limitations?
Until he is noticeably in greater discomfort, reduced range of movement, meaner behaviour, or until you can’t stand any longer to watch the wheels come off, are you ok with the fun that you do have together? ‘Cause he could last years, that sort of horse rarely has a convenient heart attack!
Riders are all so different, eg. for me, a horse that couldn’t hack steep hills would be the end of it.
Anyway, you’ve got plenty more questions for the vet, and at least enjoying some decent rides meanwhile, good luck.
 
nutjob said:
Also think this is something to consider. I had one with DSLD who appeared sound until nerve blocked, again it was bilateral, both hinds. He stood camped under which I think is more typical rather than camped out, and also used to try to sit on stuff, I thought he was just itchy and may have a parasite problem but he was trying to relieve the weight off his legs. I could tell there was something wrong when riding as he became sharp and reactive when he'd previously been very laid back, also wasn't pushing properly from behind. He was difficult for the farrier and eventually unable to be trimmed at all.

If the farrier is booked, see if you can do some work on lifting up the back legs in case there is anything he will tolerate better like keeping the leg low or more forward etc. Bear in mind in case he is a wobbler despite the xrays, they can become very unstable with sedation.
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That’s my fear, I can’t really comprehend how sedating a horse who can’t stand properly is safe.
I’ve said that to both vet and farrier and both say it’s something they have done or had to do and often works.

I can lift them, today I picked out fronts and he’s already lifted the next leg ready… but he puts too much weight on me to be able to hold them up, im also keeping them low to the ground which he’s more comfortable about.
 
Different scenario, but when my youngster arrived he had a set of shoes on that looked a good three months old. Being a big baby who obviously hadn't been handled a huge amount he was difficult to lift legs.
My farrier was able to remove shoes, and do a basic trim whilst keeping the feet really low. His hinds were still resting on the floor when pulled the shoes. And he was better at pulling them forward to have a quick trim
So I would go down that route to get shoes off, rather then sedating. And then not put (hind) shoes back on, and give yourself time to make some decisions
 
Urgh what a tricky situation to be in with your friend. This is an off the wall suggestion, but I work with a very good trainer for in hand work. They are excellent at being able to read posture, muscle mass and movement to build up a picture. They do a lot of rehab work alongside the usual vets and physio. Some quiet and consistent work has meant my horse has learnt a better way than his compensatory movement patterns and posture. I don’t know where you are based, but they are near Manchester and teach in Oxfordshire and Somerset too. If your horse is up to travelling you might feel it helpful to have them cast their eye over whatever is going on. PM if you want more details.
 
mavandkaz said:
Different scenario, but when my youngster arrived he had a set of shoes on that looked a good three months old. Being a big baby who obviously hadn't been handled a huge amount he was difficult to lift legs.
My farrier was able to remove shoes, and do a basic trim whilst keeping the feet really low. His hinds were still resting on the floor when pulled the shoes. And he was better at pulling them forward to have a quick trim
So I would go down that route to get shoes off, rather then sedating. And then not put (hind) shoes back on, and give yourself time to make some decisions
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I think that’s going to be the plan. I suspect we won’t get shoes back on really but yes hopefully if he keeps them really low, and can actually get close enough to pick them up!
 
Some of this does suggest PSSM but I would be shocked if its that. Vitamin e wont hurt, most horses will benefit from it. I'd definitely be looking at the ECVM stuff, especially if he has TB in him.
 
rextherobber said:
Have you done the May-Davis protocol x rays for ECVM? An awful lot of your horse's oddities are the same as one of mine, although was a couple of years younger when issues first started to show, particularly the down hill, aggression, holding hind up...Also had full head and body scan, neck x rays, bute trials, always past all neuro tests. Eventually learned about he weird angle x ray thing, and bingo. I'd had this horse for 10 years prior to this - there'd been the odd thing, stumbling, being a bit dodgy to handle in the field, but nothing that really rang alarm bells. We started investigating when the horse who lived to jump started stopping. Spent thousands on diagnostics but a couple of £50 x rays eventually solved the puzzle, Must confess, I had never even heard of ECVM...
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Sorry I missed this reply. I've not heard of a May-Davis protocol x-ray. I'll look it up and again ask the vet tomorrow. Thank you
 
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