Three Counties Show and overweight Riders...

Glitterandrainbows

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Large breed m&m can carry adults - I am 5ft 4 and my husband 5ft6. I can ride anything 13hh up that is chunky (by build, not fat) and he tends to stick to 14hh up. His healthy weight is less than 11 stone. Our last 14.2hh NF cross was 450kg at healthy weight. 20% is 90kg. Take off 10kg for tack, coat, boots, hat and that leaves 80kg which is 12 and a half stone.

I think it’s mostly the adults on shetlands/Welsh As and Bs/Dartmoors warming up that they’re aiming at.
Have to disagree sorry I don’t think it’s just aimed at As Bs and daft moores. I have a 14hh cob when I get over 9 n half stone can tell she’s not happy so have to stay fit . See horses the same size as her ridden by over weight people and then the horses get ulcers and they don’t know why!!
 

Glitterandrainbows

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Have to disagree sorry I don’t think it’s just aimed at As Bs and daft moores. I have a 14hh cob when I get over 9 n half stone can tell she’s not happy so have to stay fit . See horses the same size as her ridden by over weight people and then the horses get ulcers and they don’t know why!!
Phone changed it to daft moores 🙈 x
 

sbloom

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I have seen people showing at the top level who shouldn't be on any horse, certainly not on a traditional English saddle. Stags are probably heavier but the way the load is distributed and the fact that the Highlands carry them only walk, and are unlikely to be asked to then work differently to carry a rider, makes it quite different.

But there is nuance here and, as with the stag, when looking at riders of any weight, how they are carried by the saddle can make a huge difference as I posted earlier. Get the weight off the seatbones, sitting over the attachment point of the psoas muscle (T16-17) and instead down the inner thighs and across the whole pelvis, over the horse's centre of gravity, and everything becomes easier, but it requires a change of perspective across a whole industry (and is harder the wider the horse's ribcage).
 

maya2008

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Have to disagree sorry I don’t think it’s just aimed at As Bs and daft moores. I have a 14hh cob when I get over 9 n half stone can tell she’s not happy so have to stay fit . See horses the same size as her ridden by over weight people and then the horses get ulcers and they don’t know why!!

Cobs aren’t the weight carriers people think they are - bred to pull, not carry. I guess people at shows must have got a lot fatter than when I last watched a large breeds class though….
 

Widgeon

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Cobs aren’t the weight carriers people think they are - bred to pull, not carry. I guess people at shows must have got a lot fatter than when I last watched a large breeds class though….

It's the hunters that make me cringe - some really quite enormous tweed-clad riders on stick legged horses that don't look anything like a "hunter" to me. I often think, this isn't really the image of horse riding that I want the general public to be taking away.

Funnily enough, thinking about the fairly large pool of people that I hack with regularly, very few of them are particularly overweight, and certainly none to the extent that I've described above. "Influencers" aside, that suggests to me that perhaps there is a particular problem with showing? I don't know....just musing.
 

J&S

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"Large breed m&m can carry adults ": I agree with Maya2008. However, these adults should be fit and a healthy weight for their height and come within the 20% ratio. This 20% ratio has been quite scientifically tested in USA and UK since 1900 by the cavalry and also by competitors in the Trevis Cup. Arabs come out the strongest in tests over the century.
 

Glitter's fun

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"Large breed m&m can carry adults "
If I had a pound for every Highland owner who's told me it was bred to carry stags down mountains....!
More going on there than inherited breed characteristics.
There are Sherpas who carry their own body weight and more up Everest. If you put one of their grandchildren in a London flat, doing desk-work for 20 years & then asked them to do it, it would end badly!
The m&m that could "carry a stone per hand" were rock-hard-fit, working all week & showing was just what they did on their day off. (And who's to say it didn't hurt them? No one was asking.)
Just because their ancestors could carry (skilfully folded) stags doesn't mean today's flabby, stabled descendants are somehow exempt from weight rules.
Weight ratios should apply equally to all breeds. And yes, lighter adults can of course ride m & m - its not a matter of age, its a matter of height, weight and your ar$e fitting in the saddle.
 
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TPO

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If I had a pound for every Highland owner who's told me it was bred to carry stags down mountains....!
More going on there than inherited breed characteristics.
There are Sherpas who carry their own body weight and more up Everest. If you put one of their grandchildren in a London flat, doing desk-work for 20 years & then asked them to do it, it would end badly!
The m&m that could "carry a stone per hand" were rock-hard-fit, working all week & showing was just what they did on their day off. (And who's to say it didn't hurt them? No one was asking.)
Just because their ancestors could carry (skilfully folded) stags doesn't mean today's flabby, stabled descendants are somehow exempt from weight rules.
Weight ratios should apply equally to all breeds. And yes, lighter adults can of course ride m & m - its not a matter of age, its a matter of height, weight and your ar$e fitting in the saddle.

All this plus the "average sized person" had massively increased. The "can carry a man" is from way back when. People were shorter and smaller.

The average person is bigger, heavier and unfitter.

But regardless of if someone is 17st* of muscle with amazing cardio fitness or 17st of not muscle, 17st is 17st and if that's too heavy for X horse (them all???) then it's too heavy.

*arbitrary weight
 

Skib

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I have a 14hh cob when I get over 9 n half stone can tell she’s not happy
That was true of my Connie. My present share 15.2 is stoic but I think she would be lighter in her step if I were to get my weight doiwn to where the GP would like me to be. But I am surprised that horse owners are over weight. Riding in my old age is what keeps my balance good and my weight down.
 

Annagain

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Seeing as 25.9% of adults in England are obese and a further 37.9% are classed as overweight (with a BMI of over 25) it is little wonder that one is seeing too many overweight horse riders. I am ashamed to admit to being in the overweight class with a BMI of 25.7. When I was riding competitively I would have been well under but age does slow one down.
BMI is a pretty crude measurement that doesn't take into account fitness, muscle or body type. It was created in the 1830s by a mathematician with no input from doctors. It fails to recognise that people are three dimensional rather than two. Even mathematicians say it's flawed because differences in weight in shorter people skew the result by a greater margin than in taller people. To give it a horsey analogy, my cobby type is the same height as my friend's warmblood x welsh. Both score 5/10 on condition scoring but W is over 100kg heavier than B and neither is the heaviest or lightest of builds respectively so that difference in weight could be even greater.

The same applies to humans. Most professional rugby players, some of the fittest people around, would be classed as morbidly obese according to BMI. Their body fat levels are ridiculously low but their lean tissue (muscle) is very high. Likewise, most marathon runners would have a dangerously low BMI.

I have only been at the top end of that healthy range once in my life - the day I got married. People were telling me I had lost too much weight and I should be careful. I had to barely eat to hit that target - sustainable for a week or two when I had a wedding dress to get into and look my best in but there was no way I could do it for much longer. I'm considerably heavier now but I'm active, healthy and muscular (well I was before I slipped a disc) so I don't worry too much about my weight. Being the right weight for my horse is the only thing I care about weight wise.
 

Annagain

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But regardless of if someone is 17st* of muscle with amazing cardio fitness or 17st of not muscle, 17st is 17st and if that's too heavy for X horse (them all???) then it's too heavy.

*arbitrary weight
Exactly. This isn't a fat issue, it's a weight issue. How that weight is made up is irrelevant. You can be obese and not too heavy for your horse or a perfectly healthy weight and too heavy. It's not about fat shaming, or suggesting that fat people shouldn't ride it's about making sure the horse is able to carry your weight - and recognising that maybe some people are too heavy for any horse.
 

Tiddlypom

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It seems to be mainly arabs and highlands who some people have convinced themselves (and try and brow beat others into believing 🙄) that they can carry over the 20%.

No, they can't. They may be more able to carry a fit rider at 20% than a weak example of another breed, but they should still never be expected to carry more.

All tack, rider equipment and clothing will weigh in, on average, at 2.5 stone/15.8kg. Many riders grossly underestimate this. It's what mine weigh, and my saddle fitter, who is weighing volunteer riders + their kit at their saddle fitting sessions, has also found this to be the average
 
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palo1

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All this plus the "average sized person" had massively increased. The "can carry a man" is from way back when. People were shorter and smaller.

The average person is bigger, heavier and unfitter.

But regardless of if someone is 17st* of muscle with amazing cardio fitness or 17st of not muscle, 17st is 17st and if that's too heavy for X horse (them all???) then it's too heavy.

*arbitrary weight

People are MUCH bigger generally than they were even 30 years ago. In the 1980's 15.2 was a respectable size for a ladies or smaller man's hunter. 16.2'' was considered a very large horse. Nowadays we have both enormous horses and riders. Many more people are generally taller and bigger in any case. Physically, ergonomically, the healthiest 'size' for a horse is no bigger than 15.2; after that there is more and more cumulative strain on everything yet a normal 15.2 middleweight would not carry many of today's larger or even 'average' adult riders. So bigger, physically less capable horses and larger riders...I think the ratios need to be reduced from 20% really.
 

tda

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People are MUCH bigger generally than they were even 30 years ago. In the 1980's 15.2 was a respectable size for a ladies or smaller man's hunter. 16.2'' was considered a very large horse. Nowadays we have both enormous horses and riders. Many more people are generally taller and bigger in any case. Physically, ergonomically, the healthiest 'size' for a horse is no bigger than 15.2; after that there is more and more cumulative strain on everything yet a normal 15.2 middleweight would not carry many of today's larger or even 'average' adult riders. So bigger, physically less capable horses and larger riders...I think the ratios need to be reduced from 20% really.
Agree with this, some folk think a bigger horse will carry more weight, but I don't think that is correct.
 

J&S

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I hardly dare write this as I am sure to be cut to shreds but: There are far worse things happening to horses around the world than a few over weight horses or ponies carrying their varying sized owners around a small field for twenty minutes or so. Did you see about the horses at a religious festival in China being made to jump a huge wall, some broke legs, jaws and more. My step daughter is a vet and for her first job she went to Morocco with a charity, what she saw there was horrific and due to local vet practices she was in most cases not able to help. There are horses in the bullring, horses working in unbearable heat, in pain, thirsty, hungry. I do realise there are cases of cruelty in this country but for the most part they are pampered pets which may not be good for them but not the end of the world.

Ok, back under the parapet!
 

Glitterandrainbows

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I hardly dare write this as I am sure to be cut to shreds but: There are far worse things happening to horses around the world than a few over weight horses or ponies carrying their varying sized owners around a small field for twenty minutes or so. Did you see about the horses at a religious festival in China being made to jump a huge wall, some broke legs, jaws and more. My step daughter is a vet and for her first job she went to Morocco with a charity, what she saw there was horrific and due to local vet practices she was in most cases not able to help. There are horses in the bullring, horses working in unbearable heat, in pain, thirsty, hungry. I do realise there are cases of cruelty in this country but for the most part they are pampered pets which may not be good for them but not the end of the world.

Ok, back under the parapet!
I hardly dare write this as I am sure to be cut to shreds but: There are far worse things happening to horses around the world than a few over weight horses or ponies carrying their varying sized owners around a small field for twenty minutes or so. Did you see about the horses at a religious festival in China being made to jump a huge wall, some broke legs, jaws and more. My step daughter is a vet and for her first job she went to Morocco with a charity, what she saw there was horrific and due to local vet practices she was in most cases not able to help. There are horses in the bullring, horses working in unbearable heat, in pain, thirsty, hungry. I do realise there are cases of cruelty in this country but for the most part they are pampered pets which may not be good for them but not the end of the world.

Ok, back under the parapet!
Don’t agree at all just because worse is happening in over countries doesn’t mean we should ride a horse we’re to fat for .. just because horses are suffering more abroad doesn’t take away from the discomfort caused in our own country. No one is entitled to make an animal uncomfortable just because it’s “pampered”.. because horses don’t care how white there feathers are they do care that there backs killing prob in a strong bit to boot so can’t even express annoyance.
 

AmyMay

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I hardly dare write this as I am sure to be cut to shreds but: There are far worse things happening to horses around the world than a few over weight horses or ponies carrying their varying sized owners around a small field for twenty minutes or so. Did you see about the horses at a religious festival in China being made to jump a huge wall, some broke legs, jaws and more. My step daughter is a vet and for her first job she went to Morocco with a charity, what she saw there was horrific and due to local vet practices she was in most cases not able to help. There are horses in the bullring, horses working in unbearable heat, in pain, thirsty, hungry. I do realise there are cases of cruelty in this country but for the most part they are pampered pets which may not be good for them but not the end of the world.

Ok, back under the parapet!
You’re not wrong. But does that mean we can’t/ shouldn’t put our own house in order.

We can’t do anything about some of the abject cruelty that goes on abroad. But we can address issues in this country.
 

Abacus

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I hardly dare write this as I am sure to be cut to shreds but: There are far worse things happening to horses around the world than a few over weight horses or ponies carrying their varying sized owners around a small field for twenty minutes or so. Did you see about the horses at a religious festival in China being made to jump a huge wall, some broke legs, jaws and more. My step daughter is a vet and for her first job she went to Morocco with a charity, what she saw there was horrific and due to local vet practices she was in most cases not able to help. There are horses in the bullring, horses working in unbearable heat, in pain, thirsty, hungry. I do realise there are cases of cruelty in this country but for the most part they are pampered pets which may not be good for them but not the end of the world.

Ok, back under the parapet!
You’re entirely right that on a long list of animal cruelties globally, this isn’t near to being the worst. What makes it more unacceptable is that this is happening in high level sport, visible to any public that want to watch, and might be seen as representative of horse riding more generally. It is right that the shows involved make a stand against welfare issues happening under their radar, demonstrating that is it always unacceptable.
 

southerncomfort

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I hardly dare write this as I am sure to be cut to shreds but: There are far worse things happening to horses around the world than a few over weight horses or ponies carrying their varying sized owners around a small field for twenty minutes or so. Did you see about the horses at a religious festival in China being made to jump a huge wall, some broke legs, jaws and more. My step daughter is a vet and for her first job she went to Morocco with a charity, what she saw there was horrific and due to local vet practices she was in most cases not able to help. There are horses in the bullring, horses working in unbearable heat, in pain, thirsty, hungry. I do realise there are cases of cruelty in this country but for the most part they are pampered pets which may not be good for them but not the end of the world.

Ok, back under the parapet!

Aaaaaand.....here comes the sadly inevitable whataboutery...
 
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