Time to build topline

[BBP]

I feel like I’m asking a dumb question here. I won’t bore you with the long back story but following sacroiliac problems rearing their head again after a big fall in the field and a dysfunctional movement pattern he has developed quite poor posture with weak abs and a lot of under neck muscle. He is under Tom Beech for Osteopathic care and I’m looking for an excellent physio. We have been using the Horses Inside Out equine Pilates as a basis for our work over the last 7 weeks, 4-5 days a week of in hand work, poles, active and passive stretching, rein back focussing on correct posture, for 30mins a session (no ridden schooling) then 2-4 hours hacking at the weekends for his mental well-being (hacks are forward going walk and trot, some gentle hills, he doesn’t go hollow and inverted but is fairly relaxed in posture rather than working into a together frame if that makes sense). I’m seeing great improvements in his movement. His stride length has increased from a shuffle to tracking up so I think he is no longer in pain which is the most important thing. But he still looks pretty crap when stood up. So I guess my question is ‘how much quality work should it take to see a difference in topline?’. He’s spending 30mins working on the sort of posture I want and then 23.5hours stood in his poor posture so I’m not sure if I should be trying to do more, or just be patient and accept that improvements from chronic health issues take time? Am I looking at months or years to improve? I’m just 7 weeks into my Pilates work.

He’s been on good hay all winter instead of grass due to the wet, turned out 24/7 on hard standing and arena with multiple hay stations but is the bottom of the 3 in the pecking order. His ribs are visible for the first time in his life. He gets a handful of thunderbrooks chaff, half a cup of linseed, forage plus balancer, equisure and vitamin E as has RER and has blood tested deficient before. He has no appetite for eating feeds any bigger than than that.

I look at photos of him now vs when he was a youngster and I feel really disappointed in myself as an owner.

 

[be positive]

You should not be disappointed in yourself you have worked so hard with him despite numerous set backs, I suspect you will see more improvement once he is back on grass, not only because he will be eating it but also because he should move about more in a better frame than he will be on the hardstanding.
Can you do something twice a day? when mine came back from a chronic SI injury I hacked every morning, which I appreciate is not possible for you, then in the afternoon I did the inhand and stretching work for 30 mins or so, I think breaking it up into 2x 20 mins may help retrain the muscles better than just one session but do realise with work it may not be easy to fit in.

 

[My equine life]

I would up the linseed it’s fab stuff x

 

[BBP]

You should not be disappointed in yourself you have worked so hard with him despite numerous set backs, I suspect you will see more improvement once he is back on grass, not only because he will be eating it but also because he should move about more in a better frame than he will be on the hardstanding.
Can you do something twice a day? when mine came back from a chronic SI injury I hacked every morning, which I appreciate is not possible for you, then in the afternoon I did the inhand and stretching work for 30 mins or so, I think breaking it up into 2x 20 mins may help retrain the muscles better than just one session but do realise with work it may not be easy to fit in.

I can definitely try the 2x20min, especially if mornings are just in hand so no prep needed. It means getting up at 0430 instead of 0450 and leaving the dog in the car for an extra 20mins but it’s not exactly loads of extra time to fit in. I think last year he was so fat that it hid a lot of sins, now he’s super trim it all shows up more. On a ‘be positive’ note, he is happier than he has ever been, he’s out with 2-3 good mates where he knows his place, they play bitey face and running and stallion games in the arena, he’s hacking more confidently than he ever has and he’s so much more relaxed in himself. No being stuck in a stable or a bog all winter, this new yard really suits him. And now we have our own arena so I can actually focus on him a lot more, so I’m hoping I’ll get him back to looking fab again.

 

[BBP]

I would up the linseed it’s fab stuff x

He just stops eating if the feeds are any bigger. He loves his grass and can get fat super easily on that (Spanish!) but bucket feeds he will only eat tiny ones and just leaves any extra.

 

[Leo Walker]

I've been trying to be a bit more focused with mine over the last month. Shes only been working 3 or 4 days most weeks, but the difference is easily visible. Shes really improved over her top line and shes got defined bum muscles now as well. Shes dragging the carriage on a fairly deep surface twice a week which probably has some impact, but shes been lunging and doing in hand stuff the rest of the time.

 

[milliepops]

I think it also partly depends what you are starting from.
Millie had many spells on sick leave in her late teens and she would get a bit weedy but build up quite fast, she was starting from a point of good fitness and good posture that had been very established over the years and her injuries were all field accidents with no impact on anything other than whatever thing was bust in the lower leg each time.

Likewise Kira has regained her topline quite quickly after a period of pen rest for her SDFT.

My TB on the other hand had no bank of fitness having been let down fully after injury and also being pretty lean (and as an ex racer his previous way of going was rather different to what he's learning now). He was really crooked to the point of being unlevel at times and I'd say while he never looked *that* bad he was extremely weak over his topline and it has taken a long time to get him to zero (picked him up in June last year), he started off about minus 10 He's now ready to start building on that.

All of which is to say, you will need to allow time because you're starting from minus something, as he has had an injury that has had a knock on effect on his posture. Starting with an essentially "well" horse means some of them do build up fast. Starting with something that has been compromised, means you need some catching up time.

Doing more than one session a day sounds like a good idea if you can do.

 

[BBP]

I think it also partly depends what you are starting from.
Millie had many spells on sick leave in her late teens and she would get a bit weedy but build up quite fast, she was starting from a point of good fitness and good posture that had been very established over the years and her injuries were all field accidents with no impact on anything other than whatever thing was bust in the lower leg each time.

Likewise Kira has regained her topline quite quickly after a period of pen rest for her SDFT.

My TB on the other hand had no bank of fitness having been let down fully after injury and also being pretty lean (and as an ex racer his previous way of going was rather different to what he's learning now). He was really crooked to the point of being unlevel at times and I'd say while he never looked *that* bad he was extremely weak over his topline and it has taken a long time to get him to zero (picked him up in June last year), he started off about minus 10 He's now ready to start building on that.

All of which is to say, you will need to allow time because you're starting from minus something, as he has had an injury that has had a knock on effect on his posture. Starting with an essentially "well" horse means some of them do build up fast. Starting with something that has been compromised, means you need some catching up time.

Doing more than one session a day sounds like a good idea if you can do.

I think you’ve explained it well there, i’m starting from a minus so need to get to zero before I expect more. The fact his movement has improved dramatically despite not having good posture means I’m happy I’m on the right track. I had a lightbulb moment about my hayfeeders tonight too. For a couple of them we fill barrels with bottoms cut away but haven’t been putting lids on so he is eating from the top and not the bottom, and because he is so little this is making him hold his head and neck awkwardly, which might be why the underneck muscle is getting so overdeveloped despite my efforts. The other horses don’t have the same issue as they are bigger.

 

[MummyEms]

That'll definitely not be helping - good you realised. Hay off the floor is superb at stretching back muscles and good for correct development etc ?

 

[milliepops]

I agree with BP fwiw, you've been a very attentive and conscientious owner so i think all that's needed is more of the same and a dose of patience

 

[TPO]

Try taking weekly photos of him stood up level in the same place. It's hard, when we see them every day, to notice small incremental improvements. There definitely will have been changes over the 7wks that you have been working with him.

My mums TB has needed more calories this year than is usual for him down to the grass (ie swimming pool) situation. The quantities needed to get thos calories in was too much for him as hes not an overly greedy or food motivated horse. I'm on day 2 of slowly reducing the quantities of grass nuts and replacing with a higher calories mix (Baileys no.21 Ease and Excel as recommended by milliepops). Would it be an option to try and get some calorie dense feed so that the quantity was still small?

I found this a good book to help with corrective work:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Correcti...for+horses&qid=1583654101&sprefix=55+c&sr=8-1

Can you start incorporating "working" into your hacks? Correct walk work is the best work for most things and while hes not going inverted etc more focus on working from behind over his back and really marching out engaging his abs (while still getting breaks to stretch etc) will work wonders. Just think how easy it is for us to walk 100m then try it with core engaged, wrapping your ab muscles and really focusing on contracting muscles to move your legs etc. It becomes a harder 100m!

 

[bouncing_ball]

I’ve rehabbed a few SI injuries with previous horse. First time 6 months to get him strong and normal. Next time he slipped in muddy field and redid injury 9 months. I said next time would be it, as rehabilitation seriously hard on both of us. Moved horse to yard with flatter fields (stopped him charging down muddy hills) and he never redid the injury.

 

[BBP]

I’ve rehabbed a few SI injuries with previous horse. First time 6 months to get him strong and normal. Next time he slipped in muddy field and redid injury 9 months. I said next time would be it, as rehabilitation seriously hard on both of us. Moved horse to yard with flatter fields (stopped him charging down muddy hills) and he never redid the injury.

Mines an idiot, he falls over on flat ground! He has no sense of self preservation.

 

[BBP]

Try taking weekly photos of him stood up level in the same place. It's hard, when we see them every day, to notice small incremental improvements. There definitely will have been changes over the 7wks that you have been working with him.

My mums TB has needed more calories this year than is usual for him down to the grass (ie swimming pool) situation. The quantities needed to get thos calories in was too much for him as hes not an overly greedy or food motivated horse. I'm on day 2 of slowly reducing the quantities of grass nuts and replacing with a higher calories mix (Baileys no.21 Ease and Excel as recommended by milliepops). Would it be an option to try and get some calorie dense feed so that the quantity was still small?

I found this a good book to help with corrective work:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Correcti...for+horses&qid=1583654101&sprefix=55+c&sr=8-1

Can you start incorporating "working" into your hacks? Correct walk work is the best work for most things and while hes not going inverted etc more focus on working from behind over his back and really marching out engaging his abs (while still getting breaks to stretch etc) will work wonders. Just think how easy it is for us to walk 100m then try it with core engaged, wrapping your ab muscles and really focusing on contracting muscles to move your legs etc. It becomes a harder 100m!

Yes definitely going to try to add more ‘work’ to his walk. I’ve done a before photo today so will try to repeat this as you suggested. I also did some slo-mo video of him moving today and he was toe landing in places, so there is a bit more going on.

 

[sbloom]

Can you work with one of Tom's rehab partners such as Dan Wain Equestrian?

 

[BBP]

Can you work with one of Tom's rehab partners such as Dan Wain Equestrian?

I did speak to Tom about that but transport and the distance is an issue. But I’m trying very hard to work along the principles of improving posture above everything. I have a brilliant instructor too who specialises in posture based work, I just need to sort transit. I may see if I can drive myself to Dans without horse and observe some sessions.

 

[sbloom]

I always end up staying to watch an in hand session or two when I've been saddle fitting there, always something to learn!

 

[BBP]

Just a quick update, I think I’ve figured out why he looks so crap and isn’t improving the way I think he should. It’s heel pain in his fronts. I was videoing him and he is landing toe first. He also camps them under a bit when standing. Logic says if you are a horse and bring your feet back under your body and drop your head you will tip over forwards, so I think the overdeveloped muscle under his neck and his weak back/dropped belly is from counterbalancing himself. It’s also why even though the mobility over the sacroiliac region has improved massively I still don’t have any length of stride or engine. I can’t believe it’s taken so long for me to pick up on this. I think because he has such a multitude of other issues that his feet didn’t occur to me as they have never really been one of them.

So mission improve heels is well underway. I’ll do some research on here but suggestions are welcome. He is barefoot (never been shod), now in boots and pads for 12hrs a day but having some rubbing issues with cavallos and scoots. My beloved renegades never rub but not so good with pads. Deep narrow central sulcus being packed with artimud. On hardstanding and sand arena with hay. Being gradually reintroduced to grass as ground dries. Moved beautifully when out on perfect turf today.

 

[TPO]

I don't know about Scoots as they are a neater fit but I use cheap mens "work" socks (from Tescos) when using cavallos. They stop any rubbing and give a better fit for my lot.

You're maybe already using these pads but just un case you dont know about them

https://hoofgeek.com/unsung-hero/

PITA to cut to size (every chance it's just my total incompetence) but they do a great job. The might also help the cavallo fit a bit snugger.

Well done for noticing and not accepting things as they are like many would.

 

[BBP]

I don't know about Scoots as they are a neater fit but I use cheap mens "work" socks (from Tescos) when using cavallos. They stop any rubbing and give a better fit for my lot.

You're maybe already using these pads but just un case you dont know about them

https://hoofgeek.com/unsung-hero/

PITA to cut to size (every chance it's just my total incompetence) but they do a great job. The might also help the cavallo fit a bit snugger.

Well done for noticing and not accepting things as they are like many would.

Thank you. It feels a bit dumb that we didn’t pick it up sooner as my sister is hoof obsessed with her EMS horse with thin soles. So I feel pretty bad. But onwards and upwards now.

At the moment I’m using the easycare comfort pads (12mm medium ones). I’ve used the EPS ones before though. The socks is a good tip, I’ll try that, thank you. I think he is probably getting sand from the arena turnout into the narrow sulcus and irritate it, making it harder to heal up, so I’m hoping with pads plus keeping the sulcus packed, plus exercises to work on rebalancing his body I can get it sorted.