Tips for field pacingand YO issue please.

smellsofhorse said:
The root cause is stress due to having no company.
It may look methodical but it is his way of releasing stress.

He needs proper company. One other may help or may cause a separation issues. Really he needs to be in herd.
He will be so much happier.
Could you find a nice turnout field?
Especually if you arnt riding much.

Calmers can take weeks to show a difference. But they won't get rid of the real issue.
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This I think is the root of the problem; it is very much a stress thing that he's found helps him to cope with his problems which to a certain extent you have brought on him whether knowingly or not. He is not a happy horse or at least the one you describe is not a happy horse and you need to be able to address that for him, even if that something is not something you want to do. They are gregarious creatures, they need to be in a herd; yes, there will be a pecking order, there is in any herd but he would soon stop being the new kid on the block and be accepted.
I positively hate individual turnout; it is against all horsemanship principles and is there simply to satisfy the owner; it is a very rare horse indeed that 'needs' individual turnout and usually those needs are man made., they wouldn't have been there without human intervention. Even Carl Hester's lot are turned out with company, he knows how important it is for them and look how much they are worth.

As to original YO. Firstly: the pacing was a problem and they would want it restricted to the one field; why on earth would they want another field carved up like that to be virtually useless until it had recovered? I'm not surprised they didn't want you in another field TBH, having a pacer on the yard is a nightmare and it usually costs more than it will ever bring in. Think of it in simple terms, like a landlord with bad tenants that leave the place in a tip or damaged which they have to pay to put right before they can let again; in some cases that 'putting right' can cost more than the rent. Land is exactly the same, normal maintenance is expensive enough without damage being caused to it as well.

The only serious paddock injuries I've had here in 25 years were both due to paddock pacers (different ones) and both resulted in my horses being put down even though they were unforeseeable and I actually saw them happening at the time with nothing I could do about it.
One due to walking the fenceline even though in with the herd, he got on well with them and my filly didn't get out of his way so he ploughed right into her breaking her elbow badly; the other where he barged the fence to get in with mine (he was a bit riggy hence why he was separated and the owner was looking for somewhere else with geldings only), got short shift from my dominant mare so he turned at speed and took the fencing out with him as he tore up the field which tangled around and tripped up my filly who was going to take her chance and escape with him; she somersaulted so hard it severed her spinal cord just behind her head. That was also the cause of us having post & rail instead of electric. Both very distressing and complete freak accidents but it's enough to put me off fence walkers for life as you can imagine, they are a YO's nightmare.
 
I agree with much of what's been said about the horse having a companion.

That aside, can you not give him a job to do?

Your description of him makes me think of under stimulated animals in a zoo - bored, bored, bored.
 
Fencewalking... it sucks.

My horse has a PhD in fencewalking. She's on individual turnout, and I really, really do not have a choice due to her aggressive behaviour and the fact that we have to be on livery yards. She's one of the few horses where this has to be done for the safety of herself and others. But she's lovely to handle. Her people social skills are fabulous, while her equine ones are useless. If I had my own land and could get her a pony of her very own, she could have companion, but this is not remotely possible at the moment.

That said, so long as she is managed in the right way, she does not fencewalk. I've determined fencewalking is something she does when pissed off by something, so I have to work out what she's unhappy about. Then change it. Leaving her to get over it never works. First of all, DIY yards are totally out. She does it like a maniac if all the horses at the yard are on a random routine. She needs to be in a paddock where there are horses on all sides that don't go out of sight. She also hates the weather in the West of Scotland; I never had full neck rugs until I moved here.

At the moment, she does not pace in the summer; I think the summer field isn't as blasted by the wind, and there's enough juicy grass to keep her busy. Pacing during the winter has been a problem: I blame the weather, and less grass to distract her from it. They get hay when turned out, but it's obviously not entertaining enough. At the yard, the horses are turned out at 7:30am and come in at about 3:45pm. In the winter, when it's not blowing sideways rain, she can be out until bring in time. If the weather sucks, pacing can be prevented if you show up around 2pm and bring her in. She kicks off between 2 and 3, usually. I reckon if she had a field shelter or trees or a way to get out of the wind and rain, she might do it less. But finding a livery yard that provides field shelters is the impossible dream.
 
Faracat said:
I'm actually quite shocked that he was put on individual turnout as a two year old.
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me too tbh. I have three geldings, 21, 7 and 4. They play all the time-even the 21yo but especially the youngsters-and are out on 5 acres of varied terrain to chase each other around-they chose to run up and down banks, over obstacles etc. Most horses not in hard work (and I'd argue even those that are) need this in their lives. He does sound like the type of horse who may get too attached to one field mate (and fgs don't get a mare for him) but also a horse thats been on individual turnout since he was 2 may find himself lacking in social skills. Stick him out in a small, stable herd somewhere with all shoes off and let him be a horse.
 
Faracat said:
I'm actually quite shocked that he was put on individual turnout as a two year old.
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Me to , I really don't think you need to look for any other reason for the difficulties with this horse .
A life spent in small single turnout paddocks is just not stimulating enough for clever bred to learn things warm bloods .
 
Caol Ila said:
Fencewalking... it sucks.

My horse has a PhD in fencewalking. She's on individual turnout, and I really, really do not have a choice due to her aggressive behaviour and the fact that we have to be on livery yards. She's one of the few horses where this has to be done for the safety of herself and others. But she's lovely to handle. Her people social skills are fabulous, while her equine ones are useless. If I had my own land and could get her a pony of her very own, she could have companion, but this is not remotely possible at the moment.

That said, so long as she is managed in the right way, she does not fencewalk. I've determined fencewalking is something she does when pissed off by something, so I have to work out what she's unhappy about. Then change it. Leaving her to get over it never works. First of all, DIY yards are totally out. She does it like a maniac if all the horses at the yard are on a random routine. She needs to be in a paddock where there are horses on all sides that don't go out of sight. She also hates the weather in the West of Scotland; I never had full neck rugs until I moved here.

At the moment, she does not pace in the summer; I think the summer field isn't as blasted by the wind, and there's enough juicy grass to keep her busy. Pacing during the winter has been a problem: I blame the weather, and less grass to distract her from it. They get hay when turned out, but it's obviously not entertaining enough. At the yard, the horses are turned out at 7:30am and come in at about 3:45pm. In the winter, when it's not blowing sideways rain, she can be out until bring in time. If the weather sucks, pacing can be prevented if you show up around 2pm and bring her in. She kicks off between 2 and 3, usually. I reckon if she had a field shelter or trees or a way to get out of the wind and rain, she might do it less. But finding a livery yard that provides field shelters is the impossible dream.
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It is very frustrating isn't it! From what I can gather, on this yard if he's going to do it he starts around midday/early lunchtime and then stops again shortly after and goes back to grazing. So far he hasn't worn a track, which is better than before.

Shetland was being a kids pony this morning so mine was on his own but was fine. Shortly after the Shetland got turned out with him he started pacing, after a while they took the Shetland out and he stopped, so having a companion hasn't worked.

Current yard has a solid routine. No DIY and horses are turned out brought in at same time. Everything is the same everyday.

Off to work him shortly and picking him up a spacehopper, treatball and turnip for him to play with in field. Will swop the haynet from the side he paces to the opposite side and put his toys on the opposite side to encourage him away from that fenceline.

Also thinking of putting some poles down in the middle of the side he paces on to make him have to stop and think about something and putting barrels in front of the spots he tends to turn at again to try and interrupt the pattern.

YO has just called and I've checked that's ok with her and she has told me that 9 times out of 10 he's grazing, it's just now and then he starts for a bit before settling down again so try not to worry too much! She say's it's just because she is there all day she notices everything and so she's let me know that he has paced a bit but he's certainly not doing it particularly frequently or everyday. So it's definitely a massive improvement from last yard.
 
You seem hell-bent on keeping this horse alone. I commented on your other thread about this (a lot of other people did too) saying that he needed a companion.

I'm not sure what you're expecting in terms of replies really if you're not willing to get him a permanent companion?

He's pacing because he's stressed. That is literally it. Your own fears of him being hurt is causing a very unhappy, lonely horse. What is more important to you - his physical wellbeing or his mental?
 
Maesfen said:
As to original YO. Firstly: the pacing was a problem and they would want it restricted to the one field; why on earth would they want another field carved up like that to be virtually useless until it had recovered? I'm not surprised they didn't want you in another field TBH, having a pacer on the yard is a nightmare and it usually costs more than it will ever bring in. Think of it in simple terms, like a landlord with bad tenants that leave the place in a tip or damaged which they have to pay to put right before they can let again; in some cases that 'putting right' can cost more than the rent. Land is exactly the same, normal maintenance is expensive enough without damage being caused to it as well.
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YO was fully aware he didn't pace in original paddock, only in this one. They could have easily have moved him back to initial paddock where he didn't pace with 1 months notice on the agreement that if he started pacing in original paddock he must go back into the tracked paddock before harm came to the other paddock until he was moved from the property. Not exactly rocket science.

That said, they were happy to leave him pacing, take my livery money and not mention anything about it.

When looking for other yards, I explained he had originally settled but started pacing when moved to a different paddock away from yard. If I moved him to their yard what would happen if he didn't settle in the 1st paddock he was put into. Each and every YO replied they would simply move him to a different paddock and see where they could get him settled.

Fence walkers are an owners nightmare as well! I'm sorry to hear about your horses.
 
SpringArising said:
You seem hell-bent on keeping this horse alone. I commented on your other thread about this (a lot of other people did too) saying that he needed a companion.

I'm not sure what you're expecting in terms of replies really if you're not willing to get him a permanent companion?

He's pacing because he's stressed. That is literally it. Your own fears of him being hurt is causing a very unhappy, lonely horse. What is more important to you - his physical wellbeing or his mental?
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YO advised he was pacing with the companion in the field, so that doesn't appear to be working.
 
Illusion100 said:
YO advised he was pacing with the companion in the field, so that doesn't appear to be working.
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But it's been how long? Breaking the cycle is not an instantaneous thing.

Putting him in with one Shetland for a bit, in broken up timescales, isn't going to make much of a difference.

He needs to be occupied & be in a herd (however small or big) with proper dynamics - he needs to know his place, be put in it and stay there consistently, whether that means he's at the top or bottom of the pile.

I'd be bored stiff if I were a horse on individual turnout.

Blocking the original pacing path won't help - within one day he'll have found a new spot. You need to put your own fears aside for the sake of the horse - he's not happy and is telling you in the only way he can.
 
I think it's hard to say that a companion shetland (when horses naturally pair up with those similar to them) who has not been in their permanently and only for a couple of days means that a companion/not turning him out alone isn't going to work.

I feel quite sorry for your horse having effectively been isolated for the last 3 years since he was quite young. I can't help think he would benefit from being in a field full of geldings to get his head straight for a bit and work out what being a horse is actually about.
 
Illusion100 said:
YO advised he was pacing with the companion in the field, so that doesn't appear to be working.
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I have moved Arzada a few times. It is usually about a year later that I realise how settled he has become. A yard change is a bit like arriving in a foreign land with a different culture, different people, different horses/companions. different routines, different language etc and for this reason I allow a lot longer for a horse to settle. I worked on a yard for 4 years - there weren't many changes but the same applied to the new horses - you'd suddenly think 'Oh x seems settled' and realise they had been with you about a year. Consider how long it would take you to settle in a foreign land.

My kind advice is to be kind to yourself and to your horse and allow things to settle. Arzada has always lived in herd at great sacrifice time wise and petrol wise to me. Even if you can't consider herd turnout then I urge you to keep a companion and if he's happy with the Shetland mare and the YO is agreeable then keep it that way for as long as possible.
 
if he was mine i'd turn him away in a field with other gelding to play with for a long time. No livery and being brought in and out, just out 24/7 to figure himself out. I've a yearling and I could never imagine how she would have coped on individual turnout, it is so unnatural and the results are what you are struggling with now. Risk of injury isn't a reason of keeping a horse isolated, they need to be a horse. If it was mine i'd toss it into the biggest, most stimulating field I could find, and leave it in peace for a while. It sounds like a very unhappy difficult horse. You have tried your best and I don't think finding the right routine is the answer, i think the horse just needs to be left alone to be a horse.
 
paddi22 said:
if he was mine i'd turn him away in a field with other gelding to play with for a long time. No livery and being brought in and out, just out 24/7 to figure himself out. I've a yearling and I could never imagine how she would have coped on individual turnout, it is so unnatural and the results are what you are struggling with now. Risk of injury isn't a reason of keeping a horse isolated, they need to be a horse. If it was mine i'd toss it into the biggest, most stimulating field I could find, and leave it in peace for a while. It sounds like a very unhappy difficult horse. You have tried your best and I don't think finding the right routine is the answer, i think the horse just needs to be left alone to be a horse.
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This with bells on!!!!!!!

I had a horse who was tethered by travellers as a youngster, rescued and then sold to a family who couldn't handle him, so I bought him.

First yard was herd turnout mares and geldings separated, which was great to begin with until the mates all came into season. This made him blow his top, get in with the mares and the YO made me isolate him. I therefore moved him a couple of times before I found a yard with the right companions for him (4 of them in total) who wouldn't stand for his crap (he would annoy them constantly) and they taught him to be a horse. It took me a long time to find the right yard. Years in total. Trial and error really.

When the YO sold this yard 3 years later I could only find individual turnout for him again and he started pacing. So I sold him, being very honest about the set-up he needed and vetting the home carefully. I sold him to people who had their own land and a number of horses all in together and would keep him out and about and busy. He is still with them 9 years later and very happy and settled. He is an awesome horse if he is happy. He was only difficult because he was unhappy. He was my first horse... It was a steep learning curve.

If I were doing it again I would try to find a herd environment for him again straight away away from a DIY livery yard environment, as mentioned above. However this is almost impossible to find around me for the 1 horse owner, but I would try. Oh to own my own land.
 
Well, I sat and watched him tonight for around half an hour when I got to yard. He quietly grazed the field and didn't lift his head.

Brought him in and got him ready for a lunge, then realised someone was having a private lesson. So lunged him in his paddock. First time he has been lunged on grass and 2nd time he's been lunged since having a holiday from June. We had a combine harvester working in opposite crop field and a horse jumping in the arena next to paddock, then we went to stand and watch the lesson for a while. He was pretty much foot perfect and listening attentively unlike last Sat when he was a little distracted and anticipating what to do.

As Arzada said he has been on a new yard for a very short time, so I think he's doing pretty great tbf.

I know I'm not the only person who has a horse that has presented with unwanted behaviour. However he doesn't bite, kick, weave, crib bite, windsuck, barge, pull, wall kick, paw, chew wood, hoon about/buck on lunge, have loading/travelling issues nor food/horse/animal/human aggression and is mannerly to handle.

He is very sociable, affectionate, loves a fuss and now seems to thoroughly enjoy seeing what's going on and who is doing what. I highly doubt he is the only horse in the world that likes to be nosey.

He began pacing a new paddock because he felt isolated from the yard in a new environment after being on a very busy yard, I can't quite see how individual t/o is the cause as he has never paced in the previous 3 years. As expressed numerous times, he is not a seasoned pacer/fence walker. Now he is, for the majority of the time, very settled but can get a bit stressed in an another new environment now and then. Again, highly doubtful he is the only horse that has had issues like this.
 
I would not wish individual turnout on anything. It's a royal pain in the ass when you move and have to find a yard with an acceptable set-up. I would not do it if it were not necessary and believe me, the next horse I get is going to be so, so very socialized....

I do think they're less inclined to be pissed off at other things in their environment if they have a relatively stable herd and know where they fit in.
 
OP every single reply on this thread has been to tell you your horse is unhappy on individual turnout. Every single reply. HHO rarely agrees like this. Why do you refuse to see this?

Your personal preference is for individual turnout. Your horse's personal preference is clearly NOT. Either you need to change your mind and let him be a horse with other horses, or for HIS sanity, let him go to a home which accepts this and get yourself a horse who accepts individual turnout.

That he has only just started showing this stressed behaviour recently is a red herring, he may have always felt it to a certain degree but only recently worked out how to express it. A Shetland is not a particularly suitable companion for a larger horse, horses bond with others similar to themselves so they can easily mutually groom.

Anyway it feels pretty pointless typing a reply as you will continue to come up with excuses to manage your horse the way you want to manage him, and he will continue to be stressed and unhappy, and you will continue to refuse to acknowledge it. I feel very sorry for this horse, he's telling you quite clearly that he's unhappy and you won't listen to him, poor chap.
 
I'm afraid I too am in the camp that says turn him away with a herd so he can learn to be a horse. Since you have owned him I think you have treated him like your baby and not a horse. Older horses are usually fine with this but young horses quickly become soft, spoilt and actually very stressed. Just because he has never paced before doesn't mean he has never been stressed, look at the trouble you have had with him over the years, all of them examples of a young horse who has no idea how to behave and thinks he is a human.

The very best lessons our horses learn are from others of their own species, they learn to be aware of space, theirs and other horses, they learn to find shelter and shade, they learn to forage, they learn to play, how to play and when it goes too far. All this they learn from living with others.

OP, you have effectively taken away his childhood by keeping him as a segregated pet since he was two, he is still young, let him have a chance at learning to be a horse, you will have a much easier character when comes back.
 
JennBags said:
OP every single reply on this thread has been to tell you your horse is unhappy on individual turnout. Every single reply. HHO rarely agrees like this. Why do you refuse to see this?

Your personal preference is for individual turnout. Your horse's personal preference is clearly NOT. Either you need to change your mind and let him be a horse with other horses, or for HIS sanity, let him go to a home which accepts this and get yourself a horse who accepts individual turnout.

That he has only just started showing this stressed behaviour recently is a red herring, he may have always felt it to a certain degree but only recently worked out how to express it. A Shetland is not a particularly suitable companion for a larger horse, horses bond with others similar to themselves so they can easily mutually groom.

Anyway it feels pretty pointless typing a reply as you will continue to come up with excuses to manage your horse the way you want to manage him, and he will continue to be stressed and unhappy, and you will continue to refuse to acknowledge it. I feel very sorry for this horse, he's telling you quite clearly that he's unhappy and you won't listen to him, poor chap.
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Totally agree. I have seen the effects that herd turnout has had on a 18 year old horse previously kept on his own. I evan posted on here saying that individual turnout was the only option years ago. I was wrong then...and now the horse is 24 years old living out his twighlight years having the time of his life.
Wall head bang.
 
Faracat said:
I'm actually quite shocked that he was put on individual turnout as a two year old.
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Me too.
my mare was kept in 6 days out of 7 and and turned out alone in a round pen once per week from the age of 1-2 (before I bought her), it took 18 months for the pacing to stop completely even when she has company in a large field with grass. Now 6 yrs later she can be turned out (alone) early whilst waiting for others to be turned out even if she cannot see anything else. You can bring others in and leave her out last but this does upset her for a few minutes, not a major upset but I still try to avoid it.

Op it is not natural for horses to be turned out alone and he is shouting as best he can that he is not happy, the pacing may be new but having to be lead in a chain etc etc is not the sign of a relaxed and happy horse-as an owner and someone who works with horse these stress indicating behaviours keep me awake at night as I try to think up ways to keep individual horses relaxed and happy whilst in my care. Some horses cope with individual turn out but it can really mess others up.
 
Illusion100 said:
Well, I sat and watched him tonight for around half an hour when I got to yard. He quietly grazed the field and didn't lift his head.

Brought him in and got him ready for a lunge, then realised someone was having a private lesson. So lunged him in his paddock. First time he has been lunged on grass and 2nd time he's been lunged since having a holiday from June. We had a combine harvester working in opposite crop field and a horse jumping in the arena next to paddock, then we went to stand and watch the lesson for a while. He was pretty much foot perfect and listening attentively unlike last Sat when he was a little distracted and anticipating what to do.

As Arzada said he has been on a new yard for a very short time, so I think he's doing pretty great tbf.

I know I'm not the only person who has a horse that has presented with unwanted behaviour. However he doesn't bite, kick, weave, crib bite, windsuck, barge, pull, wall kick, paw, chew wood, hoon about/buck on lunge, have loading/travelling issues nor food/horse/animal/human aggression and is mannerly to handle.

He is very sociable, affectionate, loves a fuss and now seems to thoroughly enjoy seeing what's going on and who is doing what. I highly doubt he is the only horse in the world that likes to be nosey.

He began pacing a new paddock because he felt isolated from the yard in a new environment after being on a very busy yard, I can't quite see how individual t/o is the cause as he has never paced in the previous 3 years. As expressed numerous times, he is not a seasoned pacer/fence walker. Now he is, for the majority of the time, very settled but can get a bit stressed in an another new environment now and then. Again, highly doubtful he is the only horse that has had issues like this.
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So you think he is just fine then, because he happens not to be displaying any other stereotypies and because you haven't observed any stress responses (doesn't mean they weren't there) over the last 3 years he has lived on his own since 2 it hasn't affected him at all.Some horses shout louder than others. Sorry OP I think you might be living in cloud cuckoo land if you really believe that. I hope you decide to do the best by him but suspect you will carry on as is.
 
While yard owners and horse owners consider long periods of stabling and individual turnout acceptable horse management there are always going to be a lot of screwed up animals. :(
 
Having read your last post, I went back and read your first post and just wondered if we are talking about the same horse! I've seen this happen so often on the forum, OP asks what appears to be a simple question, gets a lot of feedback that questions their horsemanship and concern for the horse, then OP gets defensive and begins to backtrack on how bad the situation is etc. I think that most people genuinely want to do the best by their horses but it's really difficult because there often isn't an easy solution and it's horrible to feel attacked when what you need is help and support. TBH I think your horse would benefit from being in a small herd, I'd worry that he might become too attached to a companion and give you other problems. He's a young horse with his whole life with you ahead of him, surely it's worth taking time to see if you can find somewhere where he can socialise with other horses and enjoy being a horse. I've got a 12 year gelding who was a stallion until he was 6, he's very uncomfortable with other horses being too close to him or coming towards him in a warm up arena which makes competing him difficult. I'm sure it's because he was kept on individual turnout as a youngster. Fortunately he's very easy in all other ways but I can see how another horse with a different personality could become very difficult. Good luck, I hope you find a solution that works for your horse and you!
 
Gloi said:
While yard owners and horse owners consider long periods of stabling and individual turnout acceptable horse management there are always going to be a lot of screwed up animals. :(
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Totally agree with you.

As someone who started riding and helping out in the mid fifties and ever since then by working with them, it never ceases to amaze me (sadly for the horse's sake) how attitudes have changed as the type of owner has changed especially now with the DIY yard being so easily accessible.
Horse knowledge has gone downhill very badly in most cases because nowadays most people aren't wanting to learn if it involves more then five minutes on a search engine. I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush, far from it but it would be wonderful for horses if people actually learnt how to look after them TO THEIR (the horse's) SATISFACTION and not as an extension as a pet. They are not a pet and never will be; their needs are simple; fuel, shelter, safety and company of their own type and we should fit into their lives not make them fit into our ideology of how a horse should behave when you have taken him completely from his environment and put him into yours.

You might laugh at us oldies harking back to the good old days but they were very much better for the horse in most cases than a lot are today because of people that haven't learnt to think and feel like a horse trying to keep them without a thought as to how the horse would prefer to be kept.
 
Illusion100 said:
I can't quite see how individual t/o is the cause as he has never paced in the previous 3 years. As expressed numerous times, he is not a seasoned pacer/fence walker. Now he is, for the majority of the time, very settled but can get a bit stressed in an another new environment now and then. Again, highly doubtful he is the only horse that has had issues like this.
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Whether individual turnout is or isn't the cause of his pacing/fence walking it's something that you have the power to eliminate from your horse's life. I hope that you do, because horses are herd animals whose needs are met by other horses, You've started with the volunteer Shetland mare, not ideal in height or numbers but a starting point.

It saddens me that your reference point seems to be how his issues compare with other equine issues, also, let's face it, caused by people. He's your horse and his issues are yours to sort out. He can't do it for himself. You have moved from an opening post where pacing/fence walking was an issue for you to it now apparently not being an issue. You have a starting point at this yard of ensuring equine company. Please grasp it and build on it.
 
Lots of people know of lots of freak accidents, I don't think it is reasoning to isolate your horse forever.

The OP has been posting about the problems she has with this poor horse for some time without really making any fundamental changes. The fact that this horse was stabled for a time to learn to deal with his stress is just :(.
 
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