Tips on loading a stubborn idiot!

Tnavas said:
For your first question - quite a lot of money! The posts need to be strong enough to deal with a grumpy horse and TBH tape does not keep any animal in that wants to get out - I tried that and horse vanished garnished with several lines of tape.

Horses do jump out of round pens - my friend has a proper metal one which now has a dented top rail where her daughters new horse nearly made it over. This was a 6' rail.

This is also why the bum rope is great as it is attached to the horse, securly enough that if they do get away the rope stays snug around the bum and the rope is thick and soft enough not to do damage
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Indeed! My menage fence is over 5ft and mine can pop that no issue!

This is the horse in question.....
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He would jump out of any round pen I could afford to make! Hes very brave too!
 
meandmyself said:
Put him to work!

If he won't go up the ramp, back him up/do circles for a short while, then ask him to go on again. If he says no, then back up/circles again. Most of them figure it out pretty quickly. ;)
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Absolutely but work means just that! No quiet little trot on the end of a lunge line, rather fast trot on the end of your 6ft lead, that is hard work for the horse.
Timing is everything & the fact he'll go in when it suits means he's not frightened, he's just putting it over you.
I suggest approaching the ramp with you beside him & when he stops, tap with the dressage whip anywhere that suits you i.e. back of forearm, girth, flank, it doesn't matter as long as it's annoying.
The millisecond he starts to move forward, stop tapping & let him stand still (reward) ask again (tap) & stop as he goes forward. At various stages, I ask for a 1 or 2 step reverse then forward again to consolidate.
The instant he decides to reverse, continue to push him back even after he doesn't want to then when you want to go forward, take him immediately into a fast, hard working trot in tight circles for 6 - 8 laps, right next to the trailer then front up again as if nothing's happened.
There is no need whatsoever for voice commands so say nothing at all, no praise no calling his name, just silence. His reward is rest (10-20 secs) & punishment work. If your giving him clear messages, he'll very quickly realise that the trailer is the most rewarding place to be.
Make him stand in there with no restraint for a minute or two then repeat the process untill all he wants to do when faced with the foot of the ramp is to get in that damned trailer :D.

I only read page 1 so apologies if this has already been posted :) & BOL.
 
We have a 15 year old who I got 2 years ago and I knew him
As a 4 year old and he was just as bad at loading now as he was then! Nothing worked apart from getting him somewhere he felt there was no escape, that can be difficult!!! Lunge ropes didn't work at all nor feed or anything. On a visit to the vets we were struggling to load and the groom came over with a bucket of water and sponge and just started flicking water at his bum! He went straight up and we were amazed! Every outing after that we took a bucket and sponge and now we don't even need it! He's cured! I have done it To other horses and it works a treat. Tip is as your approaching in walk have someone behind flicking it to keep him/her moving forward.
 
I had a problem loader, he is now a star, I now use a dually headcollar. In out, in out, in out every single time before I go anywhere, and same other end before I return. :)

by the way, all horses are scared when travelling, their heart rates rise at the bottom of the ramp, and stay high for the duration of the journey until they are off loaded and come down to a relaxed state. This does not matter if its a well travelled old horse, or a horse that hasnt ever travelled before.
 
Nightmare before Christmas....how are you getting on? I have had 2 weeks of success, 1 week of 100% this week I am soooo pleased. Have you tried the monty roberts way? I cant believe it!!! You are probably all sorted now but please shout if not, you never know it might help. I am sooo pleased as loaded about 10 times on Sunday on my own and with ease.
 
Just wanted to put in a word of support for all those of us who have tried many, many things with our 'difficult' loaders, who can be dream loaders or an immovable half ton block. It may often sound to people as tho we say'yes, tried that', and 'tried that', as if we are dismissive of their suggestions, when the truth is, we really have 'tried that', and it may work one day, and it may not........ There are doubtless tons of reasons that affect a horse loading, but this can include stubbornness. I have a horse who has loaded without a head collar from across the car park to eat his tea, yet will take literally hours when he has a mind not to get on ( and yes, all conditions can be the same). We dont dismiss people's suggestions, but we may well have tried more than a few in our time. :).
 
These problems generally need some careful thought before they can be solved.

I see animal behaviour as a sort of formula. A stimulus is applied and the animal reacts (or doesn't) accordingly. A very simple analysis, but it is a start.

The problems arise when we start to make assumptions. The horse is a stubborn idiot? Doesn't that suggest that the horse has (a) an IQ, and (b) can think and decide how to be deliberately awkward? I don't think I am prepared to assume either.

Now, if the horse has experienced something negative when loading, it is not unreasonable to assume that it might be reluctant to load. Not being able to reason, it will associate that negative thought with some sight or sound that occurred at the time. That is probably something totally illogical to us humans, but it doesn't make it any less real to the horse. I don't think horses are inherently resistant to loading as lots of horses load without hesitation. My own foals will, after some hesitation, walk into a trailer out of curiosity, just to explore.

So something is making the horse resistant to loading. What is the common factor? If it loads some times but not others, it is not because there is something wrong with the horse that prevents it from loading. It CAN load, just won't! It can't be the loading method because you've tried a lots. It is not the trailer, because it occasionally loads without a problem.

Could it be changes in your body language that the horse picks up on? Or the clothes you are wearing? Or your mood (which will alter your body language, your scent, etc). The place your trailer is parked? Any minor change in any of these could trigger a reaction in your horse.

I would stop blaming the horse and try to think things out. It is very easy to become exasperated and to blame all sorts of factors. If your horse is led by someone else, will it load? I'm afraid solving these problems is sometimes very difficult but they become easier if you get into the correct mindset and try to go through it logically. One thing is certain, your horse is not standing in the field plotting how to be "a stubborn idiot" or how to get at you! For some totally irrational (to humans) reason, he has decided loading is a bad thing and he just won't do it! It is up to you, as the more intelligent half of the partnership, to convince him that his fears are unjustified and he can trust you. I just don't believe that trust can be bought with force.

I doubt if that helps at all and I will now don my asbestos suit and expect to be shot down.:D
 
Dry Rot said:
These problems generally need some careful thought before they can be solved.

I see animal behaviour as a sort of formula. A stimulus is applied and the animal reacts (or doesn't) accordingly. A very simple analysis, but it is a start.

The problems arise when we start to make assumptions. The horse is a stubborn idiot? Doesn't that suggest that the horse has (a) an IQ, and (b) can think and decide how to be deliberately awkward? I don't think I am prepared to assume either.

Now, if the horse has experienced something negative when loading, it is not unreasonable to assume that it might be reluctant to load. Not being able to reason, it will associate that negative thought with some sight or sound that occurred at the time. That is probably something totally illogical to us humans, but it doesn't make it any less real to the horse. I don't think horses are inherently resistant to loading as lots of horses load without hesitation. My own foals will, after some hesitation, walk into a trailer out of curiosity, just to explore.

So something is making the horse resistant to loading. What is the common factor? If it loads some times but not others, it is not because there is something wrong with the horse that prevents it from loading. It CAN load, just won't! It can't be the loading method because you've tried a lots. It is not the trailer, because it occasionally loads without a problem.

Could it be changes in your body language that the horse picks up on? Or the clothes you are wearing? Or your mood (which will alter your body language, your scent, etc). The place your trailer is parked? Any minor change in any of these could trigger a reaction in your horse.

I would stop blaming the horse and try to think things out. It is very easy to become exasperated and to blame all sorts of factors. If your horse is led by someone else, will it load? I'm afraid solving these problems is sometimes very difficult but they become easier if you get into the correct mindset and try to go through it logically. One thing is certain, your horse is not standing in the field plotting how to be "a stubborn idiot" or how to get at you! For some totally irrational (to humans) reason, he has decided loading is a bad thing and he just won't do it! It is up to you, as the more intelligent half of the partnership, to convince him that his fears are unjustified and he can trust you. I just don't believe that trust can be bought with force.

I doubt if that helps at all and I will now don my asbestos suit and expect to be shot down.:D
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I don't think anyone experienced in and sensitive to the ways of horses would shoot you down for that post:D
 
Dry Rot said:
These problems generally need some careful thought before they can be solved.

I see animal behaviour as a sort of formula. A stimulus is applied and the animal reacts (or doesn't) accordingly. A very simple analysis, but it is a start.

The problems arise when we start to make assumptions. The horse is a stubborn idiot? Doesn't that suggest that the horse has (a) an IQ, and (b) can think and decide how to be deliberately awkward? I don't think I am prepared to assume either.

Now, if the horse has experienced something negative when loading, it is not unreasonable to assume that it might be reluctant to load. Not being able to reason, it will associate that negative thought with some sight or sound that occurred at the time. That is probably something totally illogical to us humans, but it doesn't make it any less real to the horse. I don't think horses are inherently resistant to loading as lots of horses load without hesitation. My own foals will, after some hesitation, walk into a trailer out of curiosity, just to explore.

So something is making the horse resistant to loading. What is the common factor? If it loads some times but not others, it is not because there is something wrong with the horse that prevents it from loading. It CAN load, just won't! It can't be the loading method because you've tried a lots. It is not the trailer, because it occasionally loads without a problem.

Could it be changes in your body language that the horse picks up on? Or the clothes you are wearing? Or your mood (which will alter your body language, your scent, etc). The place your trailer is parked? Any minor change in any of these could trigger a reaction in your horse.

I would stop blaming the horse and try to think things out. It is very easy to become exasperated and to blame all sorts of factors. If your horse is led by someone else, will it load? I'm afraid solving these problems is sometimes very difficult but they become easier if you get into the correct mindset and try to go through it logically. One thing is certain, your horse is not standing in the field plotting how to be "a stubborn idiot" or how to get at you! For some totally irrational (to humans) reason, he has decided loading is a bad thing and he just won't do it! It is up to you, as the more intelligent half of the partnership, to convince him that his fears are unjustified and he can trust you. I just don't believe that trust can be bought with force.

I doubt if that helps at all and I will now don my asbestos suit and expect to be shot down.:D
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Great post and I wish I could have written something similar but all my attempts went off course so I decided to leave well alone. For once. :D
 
A good post, Dry Rot, and i agree about anthropomorphism. However, i would suggest that the 'stubborn' attitude to which i referred is part of my boy's natural mindset, in terms of testing out and assuming herd leadership.
 
We have one pony that used to be a terrible loader ( to the point we had to leave her at home/polo on more than one occasion). We tried bribery, lunge lines, patience, brooms, blocking her way, a dually, feeding her in there daily - pretty much everything.

We finally sent her to Jason Webb ( having had to dope her and literally carry her into the lorry) and he's been amazing with her. I can't say she's been perfect since then, because she has tried it on a few times with her new home, but he is always on the end of the phone for them with advice and fingers crossed she 9 out of 10 times she'll go straight in now, whereas before it was the other way round.

His video is here - worth watching http://australianhorsetraining.co.uk/videos/loading-training-video
 
I have one of these. Sometimes loads perfectly, sometimes takes me quite some time.

Dry Rot, I've just read your post and had a eureka moment. He always loads for one of my friends, even when he is being difficult for me. Clearly it is something I am doing. I've never really noticed that before. Hmm. Something for me to think about I reckon..
 
When I bought my mare she wouldn't load, her trait was to stand on or at the bottom of the ramp and rear, even me patiently waiting for an hour she would still not load. I didn't know if she had had a bad experience because the couple of times she did load she would get very sweaty whilst traveling. I decided to go on the Kelly Marks Leading & Loading Course which was over 4 days, when you come home you do have to complete your homework. Now she loads lovely and most importantly she doesn't get sweaty whilst traveling.
 
amandap said:
Great post and I wish I could have written something similar but all my attempts went off course so I decided to leave well alone. For once. :D
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I did write something similar on this thread well over a week ago, are they still thinking the horse is an idiot??! I haven't looked back to the OP's last post but if they haven't taken this good advice by now, we are wasting our breath:confused:
:(
 
I have trained several bad loaders to load and, pretty much as important, stay in until asked otherwise, with reinforcement training. (Think clicker training without the clicker). It will probably take a while to overcome the fear that has been associated with it because of whips, lunge lines and the like, and it absolutely ISN'T bribery.
It is a reward for a try - the food comes AFTER the effort, not as an enticement. For the first step towards the ramp, then the first foot on the ramp, then two feet on the ramp then 3 etc etc. treat with something the subject really really loves. I use Polos, they are handy, much appreciated and fit in a pocket well.
Allow lots of time and be patient - and think of every run backwards as another chance to train to load. If it takes several sessions, then it takes several sessions, the first one may only result in 2 feet on the ramp, but it is a fantastic investment in the future. We had a native pony who had a reputation for not loading, he took to it so well that when we loaded a friend and he saw the bucket of treats he pretty much ran up the ramp. He wasn't typical!
All based on tried and tested scientific principles.
 
Hes no longer an idiot :) i updated saying hes been going on nicely with just his chain (which he is ways lead with) and with me ignoring the bad behaviour and keep presenting. Hes gone on and to his first show with minimal
Resistance. Hes not prefect yet but a million times better :) the title of my thread is meant to be tongue in cheek btw :)

I tried alot of suggestions but nond worked so carried on the way I was before and it seems to have clicked :) also no he wont load for others. Hes best with just me. He also plays up more when people watch :)
 
I've described how I re-train my bad loaders on here before. I bought in two mares who had serious issues.

The first one was loaded with difficulty to deliver to a stallion. After that, the stud owner offered to show her. Apparently, she loaded perfectly in the morning.

After the show, she reared six times. She went over on her back (180 degrees) three times and over on her side twice. Then she reared and half fell into the trailer with someone attached to her head collar. We managed to shovel her in the rest of the way and slam the ramp shut! That will give you an idea just how bad she was.:eek:

At home, I arranged things so she had to follow the rest of the herd THROUGH the trailer to reach fresh grass behind an electric fence every morning. At first, eager to follow the others, she would gallop through. Then she'd linger to pull at the hay net. Eventually, after weeks (!), I would work her in a make shift round pen and she'd get hay and a rest when she loaded. Finally, she was so good she would load on command. It can be done. It is probably easier to be patient if you know you will succeed.

The essence to this is that the trailer was never something negative, rather the reverse. If she was outside, she had to work (fast trot, non-stop). If she loaded, she got a rest, peace, and hay. Which would you choose?

That is the method I now use here. Foals are encouraged to explore the trailer in the field. Older ponies will be gently worked in the round pen until they load on command (I shout "Load up!" when they get on the ramp). It is my aim not to sell a pony until it loads without hesitation. My helper complains that all the ponies here pull towards the trailer when she passes it! Well, I prefer it that way -- I've had plenty of the other sort! Yes, I know that won't suit everyone but I believe it is something to aim for and it suits me.
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Hes no longer an idiot :) i updated saying hes been going on nicely with just his chain (which he is ways lead with) and with me ignoring the bad behaviour and keep presenting. Hes gone on and to his first show with minimal
Resistance. Hes not prefect yet but a million times better :) the title of my thread is meant to be tongue in cheek btw :)

I tried a lot of suggestions but none worked so carried on the way I was before and it seems to have clicked :) also no he wont load for others. Hes best with just me. He also plays up more when people watch :)
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Does that tell you anything? Unless you have the hide of a rhinoceros, having people watch you will cause you to be nervous/self-conscious which your horse will pick up on. I suspect he will be picking up on your anxiety anyway.

I can sympathise completely! I can't even have the dog watching when I am concentrating, she has to go into her kennel!:D

Keep doing what you are doing but do gradually lighten up on the pressure and I am sure that, before long, you will be leading him on with just a normal head collar.

Food rewards work best when the trainee is a little bit hungry (so winter is great for training). If he gets his hard feed when loaded, you'll soon be fighting to keep him out!;)

Good luck.
 
Sorry OP, I didn't have time to read all the posts since the first page or two. But please be aware that if he pulls back on the stallion chain, that pain will register in his brain as something that happens near the ramp so you will begin the resistance again.
If possible try not to inflict any pain or fear anywhere near the ramp, and I am not surprised he's worse when people watch.
That's because, to very sensitive horses, staring eyes from a predator (us) means danger - think of how a lion hunt approaches it's prey - usually from behind and with eyes locked on the target!
If you have time to look at this site, it's quite comical in places and he talks a lot about horse sense! http://www.thinklikeahorse.org/
 
Yes I know about the chain but hes a strong horse and big compared to me so I need something there. He gets food on the lorry and always has. Hes also not scared of the lorry. He walks on happily when it suits and stands there. He just plays up sometimes but hes fine now and loading well :)
 
Just a thought if he needs the chain for leading at times. Leading well and politely is thought by many to be a big factor in loading consistently so working on getting him to lead well might be helpful. Apols if I've got the wrong end of the stick.
 
I'm glad things seem to be going better, I hope they continue to do so. I read through 90% of this thread in despair but I am glad to see a couple of sensible posters are being listened to, not just by you OP but others too. Anthropomorphasising (however it is spelt :o) is SO easy to do, but not very accurate or helpful :o
 
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