To breed or not to breed

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This is exactly why people should rehome dogs from rescue centres. Just think that lovely little chap was in there all the time and just needed kindness and patience to bring him out. Any pillock can breed to get a pup (no offence meant to OP!) but it's so much more rewarding to rescue.

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Very contradictory considering that he is used as a STUD dog.
 
I think you have to be careful when assuming exactly what a rescue is. Obviously it would be stupid to breed from a dog when it has no history at all, and most rescue kennels do neuter before rehoming I think. However there have been cases of well bred dogs ending as "rescues" when there history is known, and going on to be successful show dogs. I think I am right in say that there was one very famous Groenandael champion who was a rescue. Won't name him in case I am wrong
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However, in the case of the OP I would advise you against breeding from your JR, I know how tempting it is to have a pup from a much loved dogs but sometimes there are other things to consider. I had to end a line of 9 generations of my own breeding (over nearly 20 years) when my last remaining bitch turned out to have too high a hip score to be bred from. Thats dog breeding for you.
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Sorry that post was obviously not aimed at you Foxfolly.
 
<font color="blue"> Excuse me.... you could ask rather than assume the worst!!!

Not at all what happened!

His original owner had him from a pup and used him as a stud dog but he also bred Bull terriers that didn't get on with him, therefore he rehomed him to an older couple as he was worried about his safety with his bull terriers.
The older couple that had him couldn't cope with him, he is a patterdale after all...!! So his original owner took him back and put out the word to find another home for him, we found out about him, went to see him, liked him, he was very bubbly and friendly just didn't know how to be cuddled!! He suited our bitch as his conformation etc. is excellent and his strong points compliment the slight weakness our bitch has, which is just that she could do with a slightly stronger head if you were going to be hyper critical. Between the 2 of them they have produced 2 cracking litters with superb conformation and temperament.

We have a lot of extremely happy new puppy owners who are very happy to reccomend us due to the temperament and trainability of our pups.
We went to a terrier show the other week and came back with a rossette from every class we entered!! I think that says a fair bit!! So I hope we wouldn't be considered as irresponsible breeders!!

Oh and we also know exactly how he is bred.... out of a Nuttall bitch by a top irish working terrier, he is said to have been bred by Brian Nuttall's son, so therfore he will not be put to anything from that line of breeding, we would only consider putting to a Nuttall bred bitch with only 1/2 Nuttall blood so therefore line breeding rather than risk breeding anything too closely related!!
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Unfortunatley you have said it yourself, you know <font color="red"> exactly </font> how he is bred, but you are <font color="red"> "told" </font> he was bred by Brian Nuttalls son!
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You dont in fact know, so you did breed from a dog with no KNOWN background.

I am sorry you feel a few rosettes is worthy of breeding a working terrier breed just to sell, most genuine Patterdale breeders frown upon such activities and they remain what they are, a working terrier.

This is why patts end up in rescue so much now, as you correctly said "they are Patterdales" and your dog was wrongly homed in the first place.
 
After taking on a rescue dog and not being able to take on the hundreds of others all needing help, I would never be willing to breed, let alone breed from the dog I had rescued :-O.

Im surprised there are still rehoming owners or rescues out there not neutering before rehoming any dog old enough to have it done.

Thats just my thoughts, to me every pup bred is one less home for a needy rescue.
 
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Unfortunatley you have said it yourself, you know <font color="red"> exactly </font> how he is bred, but you are <font color="red"> "told" </font> he was bred by Brian Nuttalls son!
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You dont in fact know, so you did breed from a dog with no KNOWN background.

I am sorry you feel a few rosettes is worthy of breeding a working terrier breed just to sell, most genuine Patterdale breeders frown upon such activities and they remain what they are, a working terrier.

This is why patts end up in rescue so much now, as you correctly said "they are Patterdales" and your dog was wrongly homed in the first place.

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I am assuming you don't have patterdales or anyhting to do with them closely as if you did you would know that as patterdales are generaly a working terrier bred by terrier men they don't have papers!! All patterdales breeding tends to 'said to be by'
The only reason I used the rossettes was to point out that ours are obviously considered a good all round conformation and close to the breed type! Most shows we have been to we have come back with rossettes plus a best in show.
Actually a hell of a lot of the local hunt terriermen take their working Patts and Parson Jacks to these shows and as they tend to be the people who breed them. Most terrier men I have seen enjoy taking part in the terrier shows and terrier racing as they are a really good day out.

Ours are workers but only on rats we are very fortunate in that ours make exeptionally good pets too, they have fantastic temerperaments but are sharp as anything when working. We have the best of both worlds and I don't see why Patts can't make good pets too, we ensure that all our prospective owners are fully aware of what a Patterdale is like (They are very different to your pet border and JRT!!) We also offer to tak any of our pups back at any age should there be a problem!!

Anyway this post seems to have been hijacked and I expect the yet again the poor OP will be scared to ask any more questions in case they get jumped on again!!
 
Probably should also have added....

Yes you are right that the 'Hardcore terriermen' probably wouldn't be seen at terrier shows but then these would also be the ones that would shoot a dog that didn't work rather than find a new home for it!!!

Also they tend to be the ones with dogs with pretty horrendous scarring from nasty injuries that they treat themselves!! I know full well they tend to stitch up wounds themselves and generally brag to other people about the injuries their dogs incure ... but they still got the fox!!!

Now don't get me wrong I am all for working your terriers be it on whatever quarry you want but not with the attitude of the 'Hardcore few'!!!!

So I am proud to be a breeder of quality Patterdales and not in that category of breeder!! We have the best of both worlds, superb workers and a great looking terrier that will cuddle up with us at night!!
 
Nope I dont own Patts, but do work with them and have done for about 17yrs. Terriermen are disgusted and rightly so at people breeding them just to supply a pet market, ruining a genuine working Terrier.

<font color="brown">Yes you are right that the 'Hardcore terriermen' probably wouldn't be seen at terrier shows but then these would also be the ones that would shoot a dog that didn't work rather than find a new home for it!!!

Also they tend to be the ones with dogs with pretty horrendous scarring from nasty injuries that they treat themselves!! I know full well they tend to stitch up wounds themselves and generally brag to other people about the injuries their dogs incure ... but they still got the fox!!! </font>
They are not "hardcore Terriermen" they are idiots!
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people who think its cool to have a marked up dog. Patterdales however are hard terriers, they dont often use their brain, they are "mixing" Terriers tat go straight in without any thought. The reason most Terriermen like them is because they start hard work at about a year sometimes earlier, other Terriers like mine for instance (Borders) can be much slower to enter, however they last a lot longer in working terms in most cases.

Scarring really isnt anything to be made much of, Patts are known for their coats not growing back, they often have bald ears etc.. and have never seen a thing!
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Dogs like this and breeds like Greyhounds ad Lurchers will mark very easily and often for very little reason, its more to do with the fact their coats dont grow back rather than the heavy scarring, although I agree some dogs have been bitten badly.

Well done for taking any pups back, and I dont mean to come across all harsh, but I cannot abide irresponsible breeding, and breeding from dogs without knowing their backgrounds and not having had any health testing etc.. has caused a lot of grief for a lot of people. working with dogs you get to see the results of such ownership, at present I am boarding a JRT, should of been 2, but they other has a litter of 6 to the dog I am boarding, her litter brother and they are just over 11mths!!!!
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I'm glad we agree on the 'Idiots'!!!

I meant the ones that have half their lips missing etc... I was on a forum for patts and this is where I saw all the seriously horrendous injuries that I was referring to!

I did actually get our bitch through that forum but never stayed on it due to the attitude of the people that said unless I worked foxes I shouldn't have a patt!! Well we don't really have a fox problem here but do with rats which is what ours do and I think so long as they enjoy working the rats then no problem!!
I agree about patts being very brave too, we unwittingly ended up with our 6 month old pup and our border terrier cornering up a badger in an old tree stump.... when we realised what it was we grabbed them straight out of there, I'm sure they would have loved to stay and fight but we wanted our dogs alive not dead or maimed by a badger!!
 
This subject will cause a heck of a lot of conflict regardless, it's something everyone either for or against has very strong feelings about. I'll just share my view/experience.

I breed or rather have bred 3 litters of Jack Russell Terriers, more dogs without papers/pedigrees, however not what I class as crossbreeds or mongrels or "designer" - just my opinion as I know lots don't agree.

It's really not something you take lightly and a lot of consideration MUST be taken. I can use all of my litters to give examples.

First litter: I have a cracking little bitch that I wanted to breed on from so I did. Already had the experience, I whelped my first puppy aged 10 - we occassionally breed Hungarian Wirehaired Vizslas. Any way, by the by, found a stunning little stud dog and the result was 5 bitches, all of good health etc. Found fabulous homes for them after deciding not to keep one this time. BUT when they were 9months old I had 2 pups back. They had gone to the same home and the lady wasn't sure she could cope with them/without them. Her brother took on one (she's only down the road now I see her a lot more) and I kept Mouse.

Are you prepared to do that with your litter? And keep in touch with ALL of your puppies - my 1st litter were all 4yrs old this year and I still get the "Happy Birthday" phone calls/emails (that's with all the litters too, even the HWV - mum spends a fortune on postage at Christmas lol)

Second litter: Absolutely perfect no probs, except no one wanted the last dog puppy. Luckily everyone had fallen for him and we were in the position to keep him (hence Jimmy came joined the gang).

Third litter: This is was a real eye opener. Mouse couldn't deliver the last puppy by herself, he was large, breach, at an angle and not budging. One emergency c-sec and a dead puppy later... that was just shy of £600 not that it mattered to us, so long as Mouse was alright.

Are you prepared to pay out for something like that, or the cost of medicine for a litter because they've all become poorly? No matter how careful you are it can happen.

I then had a the dog puppy back at 11months because the family couldn't cope with him. Too be fair it wasn't his fault it was entirely theirs, he was hyperactive, they weren't walking him or training him and against me advising otherwise, they got another dog to "calm him down" well it didn't work, so I went and fetched him and now my best friend has him and he's fabulous. Hindsight's a wonderful thing, I shouldn't have let them have him.

Make sure you meet potential puppy owners several times and do homechecks!! I will be much more vigalent next time round!

To be honest, that sounds worse than it was. It wasn't all horror stories I just wanted to point out that although it's extremely rewarding bringing those little lives into the world, you're forever responsible for them and their well being.
If you're not prepared for that then don't do it.

Do it if you want to just be responsible about it.
 
Working/farm dogs are bred at home all the time! I admit to buying both my dogs from family homes and they have been the best dogs in the world!!! Of course all pups in an ideal world should be registered, top notch, from 5 star parents and have been bred to improve the breed, but thats not what everyone buying is looking for! ( or can afford!!) Some people want a family bred dog not a show animal. Also a lot of rescue centers are funny about rehoming with children, rightly so, and if you do have a family, taking on a rescue that may have 'issues' can be a risk you dont want to take. I prefer to raise my dogs from babies, you know what you are getting then! I think the Op is thinking seriously about it, and shouldn't be criticised really.
There are plenty of staffys for eg, being born on council estates by lads just after a few quid, selling their little status symbols to their mates who couldnt care less about the reality. They are the ones to be criticised!
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If I were to want a JRT I would buy one of OP's!
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Just to say that you can have top notch show litters born and raised in the family environment. When I was breeding and showing successfully, my pups were always reared in the house, with children, tv and heaven knows what around. I actually whelped one bitch with my 4 month old daughter in a moses basket next to the whelping box! My new puppy was also bred in a family home, her mother is from a top winning line and she was taken to Germany to be mated to a son of the top dog in Germany and Best of Breed at Crufts. However I do agree that some large kennels do not rear puppies in the right environment to make them ideal family pets. In a lot of ways rearing is important, but I also think that you should only breed from stock that has passed all health checks required for the breed, and is a very good example of the breed. It is possible to find breeders who combine both of these factors.
 
Any reputable and responsible breeder will combine both of those factors MM. Though I agree there are those that don't and who should.

I'd like to point out too that you don't have to have a show dog to breed on and improve stock. I use the same criteria when I breed my JRs as my mum does when breeding the HWV. Only difference is I don't have a set standard to follow so as well as an excellent temperament I look for good conformation (not easy to find in JRs) as the basics are the same for any breed, a decent rough coat as that's what I'm aiming to reproduce, and find out as much about the health of the stud dog before using it.
 
Sorry yes, wasn't implying that you have to have show winning animals to improve stock. My last few litters were from bitches who never entered the show ring, but I like to think that with each mating I used a dog to complement them and thus improve the line. It annoys me that sometimes the big kennels look down on those of us with one or two bitches as "pet breeders" and yet quite often the pups have a damn sight better start than those which never see the outside of their kennel until they leave for their new home. Rant over, will get off my soap box now.
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i think u should because u want ur dogs pups not another dogs pups and u will have cute little pups im positive that sum1 will want ur pups like mates or family
 
I would personally think hard before buying a puppy raised outside, I want a pup that knows what the TV and hoover is when I get it home.

Big breeders often do raise and rear in the home, some I agree use kennels.

"Pet breeders" do not often have quality animals to breed from. This in in NO way a slur on their breeding "practices" but many buy pups as pets then breed from them without really knowing much about conformation within the breed and a lot do not do relevant health testing either, this is why "pet" breeders get a bad name in some cases. We all own the best dogs in the world, nodoby's is better than ours, thats just us, but when it comes to breeding I think we must take off our rose coloured spectacles and look properly at whats in front of us.
 
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i think u should because u want ur dogs pups not another dogs pups and u will have cute little pups im positive that sum1 will want ur pups like mates or family

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The above comment sounds like a good reason for u in particular not to breed
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....to say someone will want them..."mates or family"
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is not securing positive homes for puppies...thats like saying they will be cute don't worry someone will want them....puppies do not stay small and cute forever they grow and change and when they do not look so cute anymore or problems arise....they will need somewhere to be returned....the breeder being the first port of call.

The OP sounds like she is trying to cover all scenarios and does not want the puppies going to mates and neighbours just to get rid of them,and has already stated that she could not take any back.
This is the exact reason dogs are packing rescue, because people live in ignorance and believe that anyone will want a cute puppy from their dog, but fail to think forward a few months or years as to where these puppies will end up, Im sure the OP is well aware that her puppies will sell on cuteness alone......but how long will they stay in their homes and is there a possibility they are given up or returned.
 
its really nout to do with u or me n all i said was that i think she should because she can show the dogs or keep some n sell the others she doesnt need to take them back well some animals get passed on like horses thats just like saying dont breed horses because they will get passed on n what about ugly animals i was saying about the cuteness because i was thinking her dog would be cute "so why not just kill the dogs that get rescued" thats wat ur just about sayin n by the way im not thick ya na i no pups dont stay cute
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its really nout to do with u or me n all i said was that i think she should because she can show the dogs or keep some n sell the others she doesnt need to take them back well some animals get passed on like horses thats just like saying dont breed horses because they will get passed on n what about ugly animals i was saying about the cuteness because i was thinking her dog would be cute "so why not just kill the dogs that get rescued" thats wat ur just about sayin n by the way im not thick ya na i no pups dont stay cute
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This post has just sealed my thoughts....it's the school holidays...need I say more....your grammar is terrible by the way....I cannot really understand what the hell u are saying, horses are somewhat different to dogs in the way that they can only breed one off spring at a time and can not multiply on the same scale as a dog, not that im defending unneccesary horse breeding IMO is just as bad, it's just the post is in regard to dog breeding.
I am not telling and neither has anyone else told the OP what to do, meerly given advice and individual opinions as asked for in the OP's origional post.

You clearly did not read the OP's post either, she does not want to keep them, she wants one for herself, which is understandable, however bitches rarely have one and the OP is concerned as she said a "definate Con" that she cannot take any back if the need arises which is the responsible thing to do to safe guard the puppies future and keep them from landing in a rescue.

In regard to the last comment...again Im struggling with your grammar....are u implying Im saying all ugly rescues need killing?
I will await a reply before I answer that one.
 
just cause ya daint write like me daint mean ur better than me u said ur sayin that there just given up dogs so wants the point havin them u stupid cow have u got any cause i feel sorry for them since they have u as a mam can u read this or do u want me to do it clearly u thick [****]
 
NO I cannot read it, and yes I would like you to do it clearly....whatever that means
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I must be thick by your standards, I still cannot understand what you are trying to say.
I will not stoop so low as to name call esp with a child.
 
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just cause ya daint write like me daint mean ur better than me u said ur sayin that there just given up dogs so wants the point havin them u stupid cow have u got any cause i feel sorry for them since they have u as a mam can u read this or do u want me to do it clearly u thick [****]

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How terribly rude.
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Whether CALA writes the way you do or not has no bearing, in my mind, as to whether she's "better than you" per se, although I would hazard a guess she's more than likely better educated judging by your concept of the English language. However, the vilifying tone of your above post towards CALA most certainly causes me to believe that CALA is the better person of the two of you. I can't imagine her using choice words in a post.

I assume you don't own a copy of "How to win friends and influence people"?

Totally uncalled for.
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jst 2 inform u am nt a kid i do nt gan 2 skool as i am home tutored which in my opion n am sure many others opions are da same is that home schoolin is betta education for us as if u ever acually went 2 skool u wud kno dat u dnt learn anything as da teachers dnt giv a [****] if u learn or nt and referrin bk 2 da topic as a once said be4 the owner shud breed cos if ppl didnt breed wt animals wud we ave n for ur info plenty ov ppl ave dogs n acually care for them the owner shud only giv away pups 2 ppl who she finks will look afta them also the other side is 4 da owner nt 2 breed cos if she loves n cares for her dog as many ppl kno there is a high percentage of her dyin while givin birth 2 da pups n may a ask wt does it ave t do wiv u hw a gt my education as long as am gettin education i n plenty of ppl dont c da problem plus wiv nt gan t skool a ave mre tym t care 4 me horse n i wnt become involved in drugs ect
 
im so sorry its quicker writting the way i do and she is probally older than me and on the other hand she was rude to me first so for a new user that isnt a very good welcome
 
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im so sorry its quicker writting the way i do and she is probally older than me and on the other hand she was rude to me first so for a new user that isnt a very good welcome

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That's much better!
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You're not charged by the letter to post on a forum, so I can never understand the need of some users to condense posts into "text talk". Mind you, I never condense texts either as I much prefer proper English.

I will admit I didn't read all of the posts as I just jumped to the last few posted today (well technically yesterday and today, given the time).
 
Hi Pingpong. I agree that "pet breeders" often don't have quality animals to breed from. My moan was at being termed a pet breeder by some of the large breeding kennels because we only had a couple of breeding bitches. These bitches were show winning and our affix was held by my mother (a championship show judge) and myself (open show judge).
 
Where the post goes nobody knows......lol
Thanks for all the relevant advice re the breeding of my bitch.
I should perhaps say that i would be able to take a puppy back in order to rehome it but i wouldnt really want to keep more than two dogs as i dont think i have the room and walking 3 would be a bit tricky
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Im still undecided but leaning towards doing it pending her health check at the vets tonight.
 
I'm sorry but the only person being rude here is you. Cala wasn't rude just answered your post with her point of view. It is a shame you're immediate response was to attack with such aggression.

Unfortunately by being offensive and immature any sensible opinion you have on the topic being discussed is, for me, not worth reading.
 
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