To Patey or not to Patey

[Drakerath]

Yes if you feel the inconvenience of wearing a body protector is outweighed by the benefit they would bring if you fell.

Some would say that the relative protection by a body protector does not out weigh the restriction to your riding style - whereas with hats, there is no impingement whatsoever.

With skull caps versus Patey, the cost is nil and the benefit is quantifiable and absolute. It's a greyer area with body protectors so open to more subjective opinion.

 

[sbloom]

Okay, I'll say it - looking logically at your argument, why would you wear a Patey for dressage if you're not putting appearance over safety, which you have berated others for? Is there some imaginary line where some forms of riding are safe, and other riding is unsafe?

 

[cptrayes]

It's literally those whose parents fell victim to too much cross breeding and/or born with insufficient brain cells that continue to choose aesthetics over brain protection.

..... the sort of person who chooses a Patey probably doesn't have much brain to protect in the first place so they are no better or worse off.)

........the in-bred numptees lauding about in silly party hats

I have one too that I just use when I go eventing (dressage bit obvs). They look infinitely smarter than anything safe.

Is it me ????



ps unless you are riding at Novice or above you cannot wear a Patey at BE. If you are on a fit horse doing a novice test on a grass arena with the mandatory loose dogs, looser people, bellowing cows, crow scarers etc and you are wearing a Patey then I guess that you really do mean yourself when you wrote the stuff above

 

[sbloom]

Is it me ????



ps unless you are riding at Novice or above you cannot wear a Patey at BE. If you are on a fit horse doing a novice test on a grass arena with the mandatory loose dogs, looser people, bellowing cows, crow scarers etc and you are wearing a Patey then I guess that you really do mean yourself when you wrote the stuff above

Exactly my point when biting my tongue and my post above .

 

[Drakerath]

Okay, I'll say it - looking logically at your argument, why would you wear a Patey for dressage if you're not putting appearance over safety, which you have berated others for? Is there some imaginary line where some forms of riding are safe, and other riding is unsafe?

Because, as I said above in my earlier post, hunting typically invovling jumping and unpredictable conditions. Dressage, on a trained event horse, does not. Risk/reward analysis is on a continuum. It is not black and white. Humans take as assessment of the risk and make a decision accordingly. Again. As I have already said above.

So you trade aesthetics (with a Patey) over safety (crash hat). With dressage on an experienced, trained horse, the rider can decide that in this instance, the risk of a head injury is so remote and the perceived aesthetic benefit of wearing a Patey (because let's face it, there is no other benefit to wearing a Patey over any other choice of hat) is much greater, that the decision to wear the Patey wins out.

When jumping in fields of many unknown people (out hunting), the risk of falling is significant for any rider out there hence the decision by a human with a brain capable of processing basic risk and reward decisions,would be to take the headwear option that offers protection.

Put simply, the risk is significant when hunting and insignficant when doing dressage.
How many hunting people have never falled out hunting? How many event riders fall off doing their test at a BE event?

 

[Drakerath]

lol. I'm typically doing Adv or Ints with my Pateys. With my youngsters, I take a view.
As I said, risk/reward is on a continuum, not black and white.

 

[cptrayes]

Because, as I said above in my earlier post, hunting typically invovling jumping and unpredictable conditions. Dressage, on a trained event horse, does not.

You must be joking. Nothing unpredictable about doing a dressage test in a grass arena in the middle of an open field? You live on a different planet from me

 

[Drakerath]

You must be joking. Nothing unpredictable about doing a dressage test in a grass arena in the middle of an open field? You live on a different planet from me

You're being facetious.
You are more likely to fall on a day's hunting (jumping day) than you are doing an intermediate BE dressage test. To suggest their likelihoods are comparable is risible. And lucky for me, BE is on myside because funnily enough you can wear the Pateys to do dressage but have to put on a real hat to go and jump in. Who'd a thunk it?!
Still, as you say, perhaps your world is different and you really are as likely to slide off doing dressage in an open grass field as you are out jumping hedges with others cutting you up et al .

 

[sbloom]

You have taken a morally superior view here, and a very principled one (not that I disagree) over people who rate appearance as more important than safety. You have insulted them in many different ways. And then you say:

They look infinitely smarter than anything safe

And you really can't see the irony?!! Perhaps a course in philosophy and the art of the argument....?

 

[Drakerath]

You have taken a morally superior view here, and a very principled one (not that I disagree) over people who rate appearance as more important than safety. You have insulted them in many different ways. And then you say:

They look infinitely smarter than anything safe

And you really can't see the irony?!! Perhaps a course in philosophy and the art of the argument....?

But they are infinitely smarter. I've never said they are not. I recognise that this is why people (including myself) wear them. But there comes a point where you have to put safety over aesthetics - and jumping will require this because you are increasing the level of risk to yourself.

You speak like it is an either /or situation with pateys and skull caps. It isn't. There is a place for both because no one can insure themselves fully against all types of risk. I don't walk out of the house encased in bubble wrap do I? Nor can you insure yourself against ALL risk when getting on a horse. You take a view and thus appropriate measures to protect yourself.
I maintain that anyone climbing aboard to go hedge hopping in muddy fields with 60 other nutters, is *stupid* if they don't put on a decent hat. We've all fallen out hunting haven't we?
It just isn't the same doing dressage!

 

[VOM]

Drakerath

But people have to make their own choices, this is my point. If someone wears a Patey has an accident and then chooses to wear a skull cap in the future it's their own personal choice if someone chooses not to, again its their choice.

You could choose to drive a Renult or Volvo you could chose to drive a Porche or kit car, are these people stupid too.

By your argument we should'nt be Hunting, Eventing, SJ'ing do Dressage or be happy hackers.

If you call people stupid you will piss them off. Let people make their own choices.

*edited to add, you say there comes a point. Well everyone point will be different.

 

[cptrayes]

You're being facetious.

No, I am not.

You are more likely to fall on a day's hunting (jumping day) than you are doing an intermediate BE dressage test.To suggest their likelihoods are comparable is risible.

I don't dispute that and I never suggested that the likelihood was comparable. Your comment was not about comparable risk at that point, what you wrote was that there is

nothing unpredictable

about doing an Intermediate dressage test on a grass arena in the middle of a field at a BE event. Which is of course nonsense, as I pointed out.

Plenty of experienced people have been badly hurt coming off totally sane and predictable horses in a safe environment. My own "favourite" example was a six year old which dropped dead underneath me in walk. If I'd not had a serious hat on I would be dead. As it is, I am partially deaf.

No riding is ever completely predictable.

 

[Alec Swan]

You must be joking. Nothing unpredictable about doing a dressage test in a grass arena in the middle of an open field? You live on a different planet from me

....... and apparently one without cotton wool too. The answer, I'd respectfully suggest, is that you learn to ride.

Alec.

 

[Drakerath]

"No riding is ever predictable."
Agreed.
Which brings us to why people of average or above intelligence would choose to go hedge hopping out hunting wearing a Patey?
No affiliated horse groups allow people to get on and jump in anything less than a proper hat for a very basic reason. Why do certain, old fashioned hunting folk think they are above these obvious risks?
I can't say their choices are not stupid because I can't think of a reason to say otherwise.
I can't even say I care if this pisses them off because I can't take their reasons for wearing a Patey to look good even when jumping fat hedges) as legitimate. They are a dying breed though (no pun intended). And before long they will have died out. Like dinosaurs. People will one day look back at them and think what the hell were they thinking!

 

[cptrayes]

....... and apparently one without cotton wool too. The answer, I'd respectfully suggest, is that you learn to ride.

Alec.

It helps stop a horse with a burst aorta from a congenital weakness from dropping dead underneath you if you know how to ride, does it Alec?

 

[cptrayes]

"No riding is ever predictable."
Agreed.
Which brings us to why people of average or above intelligence would choose to go hedge hopping out hunting wearing a Patey?

But that wasn't the question. The question was why, after being so attacking and strongly critical of people who wear pateys hunting, you choose to wear one when riding at all.

I feel exactly the same about anyone who wears one at any time on horseback.

 

[Drakerath]

Whether a horse drops dead under you as nothing to do with the inherent risk conditions of doing a dressage test. Alec was referring to your perception of risk when doing dressage I think.

 

[Drakerath]

But that wasn't the question. The question was why, after being so attacking and strongly critical of people who wear pateys hunting, you choose to wear one when riding at all.

I feel exactly the same about anyone who wears one at any time on horseback.

I explained why above; that risk is not black or white, yay or nay - it's a sliding scale and you take a view on it. There will always be a general consensus amongst any given population or riders.
ie When doing dressage you are generally low risk, when taking on B&SV hedges, you lay your life on the line .

 

[cptrayes]

I explained why above; that risk is not black or white, yay or nay - it's a sliding scale and you take a view on it. There will always be a general consensus amongst any given population or riders.
ie When doing dressage you are generally low risk, when taking on B&SV hedges, you lay your life on the line .

No-one else has a problem with that Drakerath, but you will remember perhaps that this exchange of ours began with me commenting on some pretty hefty criticism you made of others who exercise a different judgement to your own.

You cannot expect to go without comment yourself about your decision to wear a Patey at all if you want to go around being so utterly rude to people who wear them hunting, surely?

 

[C&C]

I think they do look smart and to call people stupid is not really fair - like others have said, its their choice. If you are deeming someone as 'stupid' for wearing one then you must mean for whichever discipline, not just Hunting? So that would mean you have rounded up ALOT of professionals (including our Olympics Games medal winners) and put them into this category!

Just for the record i have decided to go with a harnessed hat but cannot find a new one that i like, i dont like the fit of any of the velvet hats! (have been trying on all sorts today!) So, i am sticking with my good faithful skull cap with a velvet cover Will also save me some money

 

[cptrayes]

Whether a horse drops dead under you as nothing to do with the inherent risk conditions of doing a dressage test.

Yes it does. It indicates that all riding is potentially risky.

Alec was referring to your perception of risk when doing dressage I think.

I think you will find that Alec is perfectly capable of talking for himself.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I feel exactly the same about anyone who wears one at any time on horseback.

Me too.

I still visit my old mate who has been in a wheelchair since 1987 when she came off in warm up for dressage for a 2* event. Shes so much brain damage she can't even drink from a cup on her own, let alone ever thnk of going to a pub for a bevvy

 

[Drakerath]

If you are deeming someone as 'stupid' for wearing one then you must mean for whichever discipline, not just Hunting? QUOTE]

Suggest you read all the previous posts since this is not what I said/meant.

 

[C&C]

TBH i got sick of the bitching Some things never change! Ive got my answer and have made my decision. I will leave you to it

 

[cptrayes]

If you are deeming someone as 'stupid' for wearing one then you must mean for whichever discipline, not just Hunting?

Suggest you read all the previous posts since this is not what I said/meant.

Sure reads like it to me

Except you can't lecture stupid.

Pateys will be gone within a number of years. It's literally those whose parents fell victim to too much cross breeding and/or born with insufficient brain cells that continue to choose aesthetics over brain protection.
Plus those who are genuinely insecure and fear non acceptance by the hunting set.

(However, the sort of person who chooses a Patey probably doesn't have much brain to protect in the first place so they are no better or worse off.)


But do I even them to change? Not a bit of it!Who are we going laugh at if not the in-bred numptees lauding about in silly party hats. Every hunt needs some old fashioned, thick buffoons to poke fun at! They are 'characters'. Long may they reign

I maintain that anyone climbing aboard to go hedge hopping in muddy fields with 60 other nutters, is *stupid* if they don't put on a decent hat. We've all fallen out hunting haven't we?
It just isn't the same doing dressage!

 

[Drakerath]

That disingenuous.
You've cut and pasted without the context.
It is clear from my posts that my vitriol for Patey wearers extends to those wearing them when out hunting on proper jumping days only and not "all disciplines".

 

[monkeybum13]

C&C, who do you intend to hunt with? PM if you prefer

 

[VOM]

C&C you've your decision made so your sorted, I too will be staying with my skull hat, even in an environment where every other lady will be in a top hat. I would hope that no comment is made to me for my personal choice as I would not dream of commentng on theirs.

 

[Alec Swan]

........ Alec was referring to your perception of risk when doing dressage I think.

Correct, he was.

.......

I think you will find that Alec is perfectly capable of talking for himself.

Thank you, and yes I can! I really don't know why you become so cross with me. I'm mostly only teasing you!

Serious point now; When ever I see pics of those who are trying to sell dressage horses, they very rarely, if ever, have any form of head gear, that's point one, and point two, are you honestly going to tell me that a top hat affords any sort of protection, at all?

Another point for you; a horse which drops dead from a heart attack (and yes, of course I've seen it happen), all so often takes a stumbling step or two before it actually goes down, which should give the rider plenty of time to work out their exit strategy, assuming that they can ride, that is!

The bigger the horse, the more time that you have to plan for the meeting with terra firma! Ponies give you no time at all, I'll accept that. Falls from dressage are extremely rare, and also most unlikely (though not impossible), to result in serious injury.

Alec.

 

[Rowreach]

Another point for you; a horse which drops dead from a heart attack (and yes, of course I've seen it happen), all so often takes a stumbling step or two before it actually goes down, which should give the rider plenty of time to work out their exit strategy, assuming that they can ride, that is!

.

I have witnessed two people suffer severe head injuries out hunting when wearing Patey's which did not come off when they had their falls. One was a complete **** of a bloke who really cannot ride, took far too many risks and the fall was no surprise to anyone.

The other was an eminent lady master, a seriously lovely rider and very experienced horsewoman, who was sitting on her horse, flanked by two friends, at a standstill, at the top of a hill, watching hounds working at the bottom. As she went to move off, her horse staggered, collapsed, and she ended up underneath him. As he thrashed about for a few seconds, she took a blow from a hoof to the back of her Patey hat, which collapsed like the cardboard it is. She was never the same again. And it all happened far to quickly for her to have reacted.

It was interesting how many of the ultra elegant lady members who had made scathing remarks about my crash hat over the years suddenly turned up wearing them the following week