To Patey or not to Patey

[Starzaan]

**whispers**

I love my Patey......

 

[Ditchjumper2]

**whispers**

I love my Patey......

Shhhh so do I........

 

[CFA]

(in barely audible whisper) Me too...

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I used to hunt in a Patey and only stopped because I had a new horse, an exracehorse, who I introduced to hunting and wasn't quite sure how well he would behave... quite badly to start off with!!

And now I still hunt in a crash cap because its far more comfy than my Patey ever was.

I feel safer in a crash cap - simples.

However, I do NOT judge people on what they wear on their heads. OH wears a Patey. OH's mother had a horrific hunting fall wearing a bowler and was in a coma for months and in hospital for 2 years. OH still wears his Patey and we do have arguements about it but its his choice.

 

[Alec Swan]

**whispers**

I love my Patey......

Shhhh so do I........

(in barely audible whisper) Me too...

..... and I'd bet that you're wearing entirely unsuitable underwear too, aren't you?

Alec.

 

[RunToEarth]

I love my Patey, and I resent being called stupid, its a funny old world though.

 

[rangefinder]

From my experience, generally, a Patey marks a distinct type of follower, those who are more interested in hound work and puritan hunting rather than the crash cap adorned equestrians there for the ride. The Patey wearers are the ones in the pre-ban days who would be glad to see a fox caught - perhaps this is why they attract so much hatred from certain forum members? As someone who has never been on here before it does not strike me as unduly surprising that those with such mindless, bigoted and forceful opinions are able to devote so much time to forum posting in the middle of a working day…

To the matter in hand, many of us have had enough of this ‘smart but safe’ line that gets trotted out, body protectors/air jackets/sumo suits over a jacket look awful compared to a well fitting tweed jacket or wool coat. That is a fact. However the wearing of them is encouraged by all hunts – recognising the advances in safety and respecting people’s desire to wear them irrespective of the detrimental effect it has on their appearance and indeed breach to traditionally correct hunt attire. You are welcomed wearing your protective gear as warmly and equally as anyone else and that shows that hunting is a sport in keeping with the times. Thus those of you who come along in this kit should not be preaching to those who adapted the rules to allow you to wear what you wished to in the first place.

If you fall off a horse at anytime, anywhere, at any stage of your life wearing anything you may die. Fact. The ultimate way to protect yourself is not to get on a horse in the first place. People have died and survived from head injuries wearing crash caps and Pateys alike; Pateys have come off people’s heads Pateys have stayed on people’s heads. All related stories, as tragic in some cases as they may be, are irrelevant. If you hit your head you may die, end up in a Persistent Vegetative State, gain a whole host of permanent brain injuries or escape unscathed. This could be hugely traumatic and costly for your family and your friends and you could be a drain on the NHS costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds perhaps more. These are real risks, inherent risks, that everyone is taking and whilst it seems evidently sensible to wear as much protective equipment as possible it is not obligatory. A crash helmet may well reduce the risk or the severity of these potential injuries, as may a Patey to a lesser degree, everyone who wears a Patey knows all this; you do not need to keep saying it. The powerful polarities of tradition, practicality, comfort, perhaps vanity and increasingly obstinacy make people carry on wearing their Pateys irrespective. So they are stupid? Absolutely not, some of the most intelligent people I know wear Pateys out hunting. Remember it is always the done thing to look at the worst possible outcome, irrespective of the thousands out every hunting day that come home a bit muddier but entirely unharmed. To crack out the old classic, there is higher chance of being hit by a bus in the street than getting a head injury out hunting.

By extension, as food for thought, should bicycle helmets be mandatory? Should the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment ditch the State Ceremonial helmets and strap on a Charles Owen?

Without wanting to get into the minefield of the protective capabilities of a Patey (it is not even worth claiming they offer as much protection as a crash cap) the MFHA report found them ‘fit for purpose’ after undertaking a comprehensive review including looking at historic incidents and conducting crash testing, the fact that employers can supply employees with Pateys as protective headgear without the use of a disclaimer to carry out their paid work in these safety-prioritising times is for me their most glowing endorsement. But do consider Eventing and Team Racing are the sports with the highest fatality rates and they insist on full protective headgear at all times.

We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?

 

[Alec Swan]

I haven't the faintest idea who you are, rangefinder, but that was an excellent post. I'm your servant.

Alec.

 

[Hunters]

Rangefinder / You are refreshingly articulate

 

[Drakerath]

From my experience, generally, a Patey marks a distinct type of follower, those who are more interested in hound work and puritan hunting rather than the crash cap adorned equestrians there for the ride. The Patey wearers are the ones in the pre-ban days who would be glad to see a fox caught - perhaps this is why they attract so much hatred from certain forum members? As someone who has never been on here before it does not strike me as unduly surprising that those with such mindless, bigoted and forceful opinions are able to devote so much time to forum posting in the middle of a working day…

To the matter in hand, many of us have had enough of this ‘smart but safe’ line that gets trotted out, body protectors/air jackets/sumo suits over a jacket look awful compared to a well fitting tweed jacket or wool coat. That is a fact. However the wearing of them is encouraged by all hunts – recognising the advances in safety and respecting people’s desire to wear them irrespective of the detrimental effect it has on their appearance and indeed breach to traditionally correct hunt attire. You are welcomed wearing your protective gear as warmly and equally as anyone else and that shows that hunting is a sport in keeping with the times. Thus those of you who come along in this kit should not be preaching to those who adapted the rules to allow you to wear what you wished to in the first place.

If you fall off a horse at anytime, anywhere, at any stage of your life wearing anything you may die. Fact. The ultimate way to protect yourself is not to get on a horse in the first place. People have died and survived from head injuries wearing crash caps and Pateys alike; Pateys have come off people’s heads Pateys have stayed on people’s heads. All related stories, as tragic in some cases as they may be, are irrelevant. If you hit your head you may die, end up in a Persistent Vegetative State, gain a whole host of permanent brain injuries or escape unscathed. This could be hugely traumatic and costly for your family and your friends and you could be a drain on the NHS costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds perhaps more. These are real risks, inherent risks, that everyone is taking and whilst it seems evidently sensible to wear as much protective equipment as possible it is not obligatory. A crash helmet may well reduce the risk or the severity of these potential injuries, as may a Patey to a lesser degree, everyone who wears a Patey knows all this; you do not need to keep saying it. The powerful polarities of tradition, practicality, comfort, perhaps vanity and increasingly obstinacy make people carry on wearing their Pateys irrespective. So they are stupid? Absolutely not, some of the most intelligent people I know wear Pateys out hunting. Remember it is always the done thing to look at the worst possible outcome, irrespective of the thousands out every hunting day that come home a bit muddier but entirely unharmed. To crack out the old classic, there is higher chance of being hit by a bus in the street than getting a head injury out hunting.

By extension, as food for thought, should bicycle helmets be mandatory? Should the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment ditch the State Ceremonial helmets and strap on a Charles Owen?

Without wanting to get into the minefield of the protective capabilities of a Patey (it is not even worth claiming they offer as much protection as a crash cap) the MFHA report found them ‘fit for purpose’ after undertaking a comprehensive review including looking at historic incidents and conducting crash testing, the fact that employers can supply employees with Pateys as protective headgear without the use of a disclaimer to carry out their paid work in these safety-prioritising times is for me their most glowing endorsement. But do consider Eventing and Team Racing are the sports with the highest fatality rates and they insist on full protective headgear at all times.

We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?

You see on the face of it, these are indeed pretty words but they actually lack conviction and are not just based on a small number of incorrect presumptions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From my experience, generally, a Patey marks a distinct type of follower, those who are more interested in hound work and puritan hunting rather than the crash cap adorned equestrians there for the ride.

**No. I'm avid in my hunting. I'm there from the off at 6am and out at least twice a week. I'm there for the hunting. If I want a ride, I take my eventers out.More and more people are switching from a Patey to a proper hat. These include the puritans. Pateys are on their way out.

The Patey wearers are the ones in the pre-ban days who would be glad to see a fox caught - perhaps this is why they attract so much hatred from certain forum members?
**Wrong inference drawn here I think.
Patey wearers are indeed the ones pre ban days happy to see a fox caught. That was because pre ban there was no 'shame' in wanting to see a fox caught because it was not criminal! And back in 2005 (and before) more people than now were wearing Pateys! You are stating a truism not deducting valid conclusions.!

As to suggesting that "forceful, bigotted opinions" are the domain of the unemployed or those without need for employment, well that beggars belief! You can genuinely have no idea what gainful employment people here may have or when they engage in it.

Then you get all verbose about the risks. You dance around the issue and very nearly talk yourself into saying that crash hats and pateys offer similar protection (ie very little) in the face of a head injury but then you think better of it. Then this:
The powerful polarities of tradition, practicality, comfort, perhaps vanity and increasingly obstinacy make people carry on wearing their Pateys irrespective. So they are stupid? Absolutely not, some of the most intelligent people I know wear Pateys out hunting.
Well this needs dissection and challenging. I agree with the underlined reasons but I don't think you can say Patey hats are in anyway more practical (they fall off more easily which counters the application of a chin strap) and they are certainly not anymore comfortable that a padded crash hat! So strip this out and you are left with:
tradition, vanity and obstinacy as reasons for contining.
Do any of these reasons represent an intelligant choice?
I would say no.
Could you infer these are somewhat stupid reasons for choosing inferior head protection in a high risk sport. Well, I wager you can call these reasons stupid.
The people themselves may not be "stupid" per se, and may well be intelligent people with increible jobs (Stephen Hester MFH for example) but this does not mean that intelligent people can make apparently stupid decisions.

Then you come on to this:
By extension, as food for thought, should bicycle helmets be mandatory? Should the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment ditch the State Ceremonial helmets and strap on a Charles Owen?
Well I would suggest that cycle helmets are worn by people in risky traffic areas as a matter of course. The Cavalry's ceremonial duties are very low risk. Last time I looked, they are not asked to charge on mass at a hedge with ditch aft' and as such, it was be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut to ask them to wear crash hats to prance around their duties.

So the MFHA decided PAteys were good to go. Well, I never?! Who would have thought the MFHA would endorse Pateys. What a totally unexpected conclusion to thei rown investigation. HA HA HA. I'm not sure that it would count as a ringing endoresement for independent investigation there , would it.

And finally, I would expect that eventing and team chasing may have higher fatality rates, which themselves are very low. However, in terms of serious injuries, the number of incidents would rise. Of course such incidents are not recorded out hunting so you are unable to make any comparison but it is worth bearing in mind that at a day's eventing, many hundreds of horses each jump 25 cross country jumping efforts that are designed to test the abilities of that horse at that range. They are designed to TEST. Hunting is a different kind of test. A test of the unknown and it is the ground conditions and our fellow riders that present a greater risk to our horses and their jumping. I feel it is disingenuous to infer that eventing and team chasing is more risky than hunting on a proper jumping day.

Whilst of course it remains a free world and hunting, a sport largely untouched by Health and Safety, it is hard to deny the human spirit which seeks to protect our fellow human beings. It is irksome to many who see people flying in the face of such an obvious and costless improvement to the head protection of our fellow men.I feel in the long term, the desire to keep our heads safe will win out over tradition and vanity and Pateys will reduce in number as each season passes as people no longer make choices based on silly, if not stupid reasons.

So in summary, I find your pretty words are easily challenged - however you do write well!

 

[rangefinder]

Many thanks Alec and Hunters.

Now to Drakerath:

I was in two minds whether to respond to your post, for me this is not a personal battle, my post may have seemingly “lacked conviction” but that is because I am willing and able to address both sides of the issue. Your response was generic in this forum setting; picking at the minutiae in order to attempt to discredit the whole post.

First of all it does appear you have dropped some of the offensiveness of your previous posts you now refer to “silly” reasons, an apt moderation we can all be grateful for.

My point about the type of follower who wears a Patey is a generalisation (hence I start it with the word ‘generally’, one to watch out for) there was no suggestion that hunting puritans exclusively wear Pateys; that would be ridiculous. Congratulations on your personal commitment to hunting – admirable.

You stated my next statement was a truism, so I won’t get bogged down with that one.

With regards to the unemployment point you have inferred those suggestions yourself; I drew attention to when the posts were made and the constituent content that is all. (Incidentally, if I had to guess one phrase you would have included in your inevitable response to my post “beggars belief” would have been it – I was delighted to see it included at such an early stage.)

Characteristically of your attempt to discredit my post you do not seem particularly interested in actually discussing the head injury aspect of the whole debacle, the very crux of this whole debate you brush over. Astounding really.

The practicality of Pateys are more apparent to hunt staff than the field I suppose, but when pushing through dense woodland having a smaller, lighter hat that is not attached around your neck is a major advantage. In terms of comfort a well fitted Patey feels as though you are not wearing anything on your head at all compared to a bulky spherical crash cap, though admittedly there are some who complain about the tightness of their Pateys.

Whilst it might seem obvious when applying your, no doubt trademark, cutting cynicism to the MFHA’s approval of Pateys that the decision was indeed a forgone conclusion, you are mistaken. The MFHA aims to promote hunting and to protect all those involved, leaving aside people’s heads for a moment, this also means protection from litigation. One successful head injury claim brought against any hunt would financially break it. Certain hunt’s financial states withstanding, provided a proximate and foreseeable duty of care could be established – which is exceedingly likely – the MFHA could become directly liable for individual damages. Consequently the suggestion that the MFHA report was a fix is entirely predictable but utterly uninformed.

Whilst you find it “irksome” to witness people not wearing crash helmets, traditionalists find it similarly exasperating to see a person freshly awarded the hunt button, with their coat adorned appropriately for the first time, concealing it under a point two air jacket. The fundamental problem with this debate – and in fact most others – is the inability of those involved to see there are two justifiable sides to it. The only way around this issue is to do as you see fit and not to complain/gesticulate wildly when others do as they wish.

I would like to reiterate the closing paragraph from my last post:
‘We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?’

 

[Hunters]

Bravo!! Grip hard, kick on & just go huntIng !!

 

[combat_claire]

bulky spherical crash cap, though admittedly there are some who complain about the tightness of their Pateys.

I wonder if you have met the same MH that I know whose hat is so tight it leaves him with a red groove on his forehead after hunting. For some reason he won't get it re-fitted, ouch!

‘We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?’

well said, out with us we see anything and everything on heads from traditional hunt caps to jockey skull caps with those ear thinggys. I think I even saw a top hat once (but he only wore it for the meet to save trashing it!). The footies can be seen sporting an even greater variety from cycle helmets for those on bikes to flat caps and an interesting luminous orange bobble hat!

My major consideration was cost, I simply couldn't afford £400+ for a lovely hat and had to have a sit down after spending £100 on a velvet safety hat.

 

[PortwayPaddy]

I hunt with a Bloodhound pack.

Every Sunday morning I look longingly at my Patey.

Then pack my Fiona and point2. I get on my crutches and point my horse at the ramp - he loads himself.

As a disabled person (in an accident) who loves to hunt, my husband has said two things. I must wear a hat with a strap and my point2 when hunting.

He has seen me in a coma, plaster, fixators and pain.

A Fiona and point2 are a small price to pay to be able to carry on.

The Fiona has been properly fitted and is extremely comfortable, the point2, the same.

Gasp, horror I also hack in my P2.

Paddy

 

[Starzaan]

It makes me very sad to read these horrible comments directed at people. It is everyone's right to do as they please with their heads - I exercise my right to be "stupid" and hunt in my Patey. I would never wear it to hunt a horse I didn't know, choosing instead to wear my skull cap, but it's still my choice.

For those saying that people who choose to wear Patey's must be unaware of the risks, I'm afraid you're wrong. My lovely neice was in hospital for months after a freak riding accident left her with a serious brain injury. Thankfully she is alright now, but it was a terrible thing to see an eight year old girl in such a state.

I also had a very near miss whilst riding in Mexico. We were galloping flat out, and the horse I was riding stumbled and flipped over - he threw me about thirty feet out of the way, and I slid along the ground on my face. I wasn't wearing a hat, and was so lucky to walk away with just a few cuts on my face. He snapped the pommel of his western saddle - had I been underneath him I would have been killed. This near miss didn't make me rush back to the ranch to find a hat, it made me realise how lucky I had been, and that I should be riding slightly more carefully and not just thinking about speed. I got back on and rode for the rest of the day with no problems.

It's up to me what I do with my head. And I LOVE my Patey.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I agree Starzaan. It is personal choice. I too wear a crash hat if hunting something borrowed or unknown. But the rest of the time I wear my Patey. It is my choice. This is a (reasonably) free society. It is our choice what we wear. If you want to wear a back protector and crash hat...then fine. But equally if you want to wear a Patey that is fine too.

 

[Mailliw]

Not sure if any of you saw the ad in the magazine a couple weeks back but Patey are bringing out a BSI kitemarked hat in the new year.

MFHA, BSI and EU approved.

 

[combat_claire]

Excellent news, that will be something to save up for