To Scrape or not to scrape....

[Ambers Echo]

That is the question. Actually no it isn't. The question is why do people think you have to?

At a recent pony club camp I was told that failure to scrape ALL the water off the ponies would cook them. And I was tasked with making sure all the kids at camp knew that THEY MUST SCRAPE. This was being taught to them as basic pony care.

This was news to me so I did a bit of searching online. I found that most people say you must scrape. BUT Dr David Marlin published an article over a decade ago saying this was complete nonsense and he and other vets have been repeating that ever since.

He was the vet tasked with drawing up the guidelines for how to keep horses cool during the Beijing Olympics. He conducted a review of the literature and original peer reviewed research using thermal imaging showing that scraping water off made absolutely no difference to cooling rates. So hosing then leaving was no different to hosing then scraping, BUT lots of people hose, scrape,hose, scrape and those horses stay hottest longest as people waste time scraping instead of just hosing for a bit longer.

The official guidance for Beijing competitors explicitly stated that scraping was unnecessary to cool the horse. That was a decade ago.

Peer reviewed and published research is far more compelling than received wisdom and anecdotal tales of cooked horses so that will do for me. I won't bother scraping. But where does this come from and why is it still so prevalent a full 10 years after a vet proved it was not helpful. Just curious really as to why certain beliefs stick.

 

[Ambers Echo]

ETA or is he a rogue vet and there is other research out there. My google efforts have taken me to sites that talk about 'research' done in the run up to Atlanta which says failure to scrape leads to super-heated water insulating the horse but the articles don't cite the papers which makes the claims impossible to evaluate. I mean it's not a hard question to answer! And one that is quite important given the current heat wave.

 

[ycbm]

The evidence for scraping was for long distance horses with highly elevated body temperatures finishing a race in a hot climate.

It's been misquoted ever since and it certainly doesn't apply to UK Pony Club, no matter how hot the summer !

 

[Leo Walker]

I hose off until cool then leave to dry. I do run a scraper over his stomach if water is dripping everywhere. I would be more than happy to accept what DM said. Its peer reviewed research.

 

[JillA]

There was a FB post recently saying you shouldn't turn out a wet horse because the water on their backs would heat up to boiling point in the sun!! Basic misunderstanding of physics and evaporation

 

[Shay]

There is a debate about the best way to cool a horse and the research you quote, although peer reviewed, has been contradicted. Too much depends on the ambient temperature, wind and humidity. If you are in a very humid space water on the surface is less likely to evaporate and can re-warm. In a very dry climate less so. A lower ambient temperature can impede evaporation; wind increases it. There are too many variable for consistent universally applicable advice. The only constant seems to be that prolonged cooling is more effective - whether you scrape or not.

Pony Club can be quite out of date - and indeed out of step with BHS which is slightly annoying. But if you don't do it the PC way you can't pass your efficiency tests. In this particular issue BHS also specifies removing water after cooling. But if you are able to give a plausible and safe explanation for what you do it is supposed to be accepted. Although I'm not sure I would gamble the exam fee on this!

ETA - re-warmed water does not boil. As JillA says - that is a misunderstanding of basic physics! It could, in some weather circumstances, insulate the horse stopping cooling before it evaporates - or drips off...)

 

[hobo]

When I rinse my horse off after exercise when I have finished washing I scrape her as if she than goes in her stable or field and rolls she ends up filthy which defeats the reason of washing off.

 

[Ambers Echo]

The advice in Beijing was to hose till cool. Any warm water next to the body is displaced by fresh cool water. When you have finished hosing it makes no difference to further cooling whether you scrape or not. There are other reasons to scrape but it does not cool the horse better. This was advice in a hot, humid country. In a hot dry country leaving water on is helpful as the evaporation of the water cools the horse so allegedly pro endurance riders in gulf countries never scrape. Either way scraping is never necessary for cooling though you may do it for other reasons of course. But at least my kids know the pony club take on it and can pass pc tests! I wonder how many other old wives tales are passed on as fact and even tested in exams. I don't agree with ignoring new evidence. If knowledge has moved on then that should be embraced. Or we would all still think the earth was flat!

 

[Ambers Echo]

ETA I am not disputing that some research has found scraping to be better though it would be interesting to see the actual research. Apparently some vets had a pre Atlanta conference and discussed this but I can't f8nd any citations. What I object to is the way it is presented as absolute fact. And the fear of God was put into the kids! YOU MUST SCRAPE OR YOU WILL COOK YOUR HORSE!

 

[ihatework]

It’s all about putting things into context.

David Marlin isn’t incorrect, but what he says is based on high performance and hyperthermic horses - ie those horses whose core temperature is too high. In those circumstances the only message is cold water quick and don’t faff around with anything else. Definitely no stopping for scraping breaks.

A very hot performance horse would probably be wise to follow similar. But the crucial-ness of it would depend very much on their temp and the surrounding temp and humidity.

But for your average slightly hot and sweaty horse it really doesn’t matter too much. The body is doing its job cooling the horse by sweating. Scrape or don’t scrape to suit. If in doubt then keep applying water and don’t stop to scrape.

 

[Auslander]

Agree with IHW. I've seen a fair amount of confusion on FB about it over the last few days - and I think it's to do with cooling v washing off. It's pretty unlikely that any of us (apart from the endurance lot) would have to aggressively cool a seriously hot horse, which is what Davids research is referring to. Incidentally, he's not a vet, rogue or otherwise!

In hot weather, if my horse sweats, I walk him til he's cooled down and isn't sweating any more, then hose him down to wash the sweat off, and chuck him out. I don't scrape, because I don't see the point.

The only beef I have with the scraping hullabaloo is those who are asserting that you MUST scrape, because your horse will overheat more if you leave water on him. That's just silly

 

[madamebonnie]

I suppose in the case of eventing/competing where you will most likely not have a hose to hand the scraping method has it's theoretical uses. On a hot day with a hot horse after xc it makes sense to scrape off the excess water in the theory that it could have warmed up on the horses body and then gives you chance to reapply sponges of cool water. Practically since I have been helping my friend grooming we just go for the method of throwing on as much water as possible. With one leading the horse and one sponging there's not enough hands to go round!

My aunt rode a lot of showjumpers in France. In the long hot summers there they religiously cooled down the tendons first before moving to the body. Not something I see much of in the UK, but then **usually** our summers are not +30 everyday.

 

[ShowJumperL95]

If after riding on a hot day to help cool down my boy I will hose him off and then go round scrape the warm water off his body, then hose him again then scrape him off and continue until it is scraping off cold. I always finish bu lightly scraping the water off where it is dripping otherwise he will just stamp constantly as he doesn't like the dripping.

 

[Auslander]

If after riding on a hot day to help cool down my boy I will hose him off and then go round scrape the warm water off his body, then hose him again then scrape him off and continue until it is scraping off cold. I always finish bu lightly scraping the water off where it is dripping otherwise he will just stamp constantly as he doesn't like the dripping.

But if you don't keep stopping to scrape, you'll get the horse cooler quicker! That's the basis of the "Don't stop and scrape" advice. Although the aggressive cooling research is mostly applicable to dangerously hot horses, the principle is sound!

 

[ihatework]

I suppose in the case of eventing/competing where you will most likely not have a hose to hand the scraping method has it's theoretical uses. On a hot day with a hot horse after xc it makes sense to scrape off the excess water in the theory that it could have warmed up on the horses body and then gives you chance to reapply sponges of cool water. Practically since I have been helping my friend grooming we just go for the method of throwing on as much water as possible. With one leading the horse and one sponging there's not enough hands to go round!

If you don’t have enough hands and are trying to cool a horse, stopping to scrape is not the thing to do. Keep applying water non stop.

I quite often run the finish for a friend, one horse runs high - after his first 4* he was still >40 15 minutes post finish, so I’ve had to become pretty clued up on this!
Routinely though we generally wash & scrape, more from habit than anything else.

 

[milliepops]

Agree with IHW. I've seen a fair amount of confusion on FB about it over the last few days - and I think it's to do with cooling v washing off.

^^ this

Personally I've hopped off my horses when they are really hot a few times recently, because the flies have been driving them mental when we've finished work and there's no chance they will walk quietly... then it's a case of tack off quickly and hosing until cool, I don't scrape then, just keep cooling. That's not in the same ballpark as top performing horses at the olympics but for my horses doing 45 mins in the high 20s is probably a similar effort :lol:

Most of the time I'm just washing off, getting the sweaty patches clean again and then I do scrape because it makes less mess in the stable afterwards

This is one of the few times that FB really does my head in though, so many people presenting statements as "fact". Pfffffft. PC is usually a few decades behind on most things though IME, that doesn't surprise me

 

[ShowJumperL95]

But if you don't keep stopping to scrape, you'll get the horse cooler quicker! That's the basis of the "Don't stop and scrape" advice. Although the aggressive cooling research is mostly applicable to dangerously hot horses, the principle is sound!

I have never heard of don't stop and scrape. He does cool down quick this way, how is what I do cool him down any slower than how you cool down your horse? You walk your horse round until he has cooled down that way when surely getting off and washing him straight away will help cool his body down quicker? Everyone has their own ways of cooling down their horse and surely at the end of the day if the horse gets cooled down properly and is comfortable it shouldn't matter how each of us does it.

 

[Auslander]

I have never heard of don't stop and scrape. He does cool down quick this way, how is what I do cool him down any slower than how you cool down your horse? You walk your horse round until he has cooled down that way when surely getting off and washing him straight away will help cool his body down quicker? Everyone has their own ways of cooling down their horse and surely at the end of the day if the horse gets cooled down properly and is comfortable it shouldn't matter how each of us does it.

I don't want a row - was just saying that things have moved on now, and it's widely recognised that there are more effective ways to cool a horse down. It's you horse though, so if it works for you, that's fine. As I said in an earlier post, none of us are likely to get a horse core-hot enough to need proper cooling!

What I do with my horse isn't relevant, as he doesn't work hard enough to get hot, now that he is semi retired. If he was still in proper work, and got hot and sweaty - I would walk him for the last 10 minutes of the session (I do this anyway, as it's good management!), then hose him til the water ran cool, then chuck him out.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I have never heard of don't stop and scrape. He does cool down quick this way, how is what I do cool him down any slower than how you cool down your horse? You walk your horse round until he has cooled down that way when surely getting off and washing him straight away will help cool his body down quicker? Everyone has their own ways of cooling down their horse and surely at the end of the day if the horse gets cooled down properly and is comfortable it shouldn't matter how each of us does it.

It doesn't matter. My point is my kids (and all the kids on camp) were told that NOT scraping would put their ponies at serious risk of being 'cooked' by super-heated water which is rubbish. Scraping is fine but not necessary. If your horse is dangerously hot and needs to be aggressively cooled then scraping wastes time because you stop hosing to scrape. In that situiation it is better to keep the hose on the horse until cool. The hose/stop/scrape/repeat advice is based on the idea that somehow a super-heated layer of water stays near the skin unless you scrape it off. And as far as I can tell from reading the papers this is simply not true.

 

[Auslander]

The hose/stop/scrape/repeat advice is based on the idea that somehow a super-heated layer of water stays near the skin unless you scrape it off. And as far as I can tell from reading the papers this is simply not true.

Apparently, the only instance where it could be a problem, is when humidity is 90 degrees or more, as then the warm/hot water doesn't evaporate

 

[ester]

As the theory is that you waste time scraping I've always quietly pondered whether when you have multiple hands applying water whether it makes a difference if one of those people scrapes. But I'm a bit sad like that

 

[Ambers Echo]

Apparently, the only instance where it could be a problem, is when humidity is 90 degrees or more, as then the warm/hot water doesn't evaporate

In that situation I can see how you may prefer to scrape off the final layer of water, but not to keep stopping hosing in order to scrape. You aren't relying on evaporation if you are continually hosing as the continuous flow of cool water displaces any warmed water.

 

[Auslander]

In that situation I can see how you may prefer to scrape off the final layer of water, but not to keep stopping hosing in order to scrape. You aren't relying on evaporation if you are continually hosing as the continuous flow of cool water displaces any warmed water.

I'm on your side - see my previous posts!!

 

[Ambers Echo]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to understand what people are recommending and why under different conditions. At the pony club camp I knew no better and just had to bite my lip as the instructors were going on about super-heated water and boiling ponies etc etc etc. And worse still giving me the job of reminding all the kids to scrape every time they came off a ride. I had signficant doubts about what they were saying but lacked enough knowlege to argue so I went along with giving out that advice and am retrospectively feeling quite annoyed about that!

I want to be better informed next time, that's all.

 

[Theocat]

Someone told me a few years ago that washing my horse down and leaving him wet was "the worst possible thing you can do". Their argument was that, when you touched the horse, you could feel that it was hotter - and therefore, applying cold water was making the horse heat up...!

If you want to cool a horse down, I would have thought that keeping the cold water running would be best, followed by drenching the horse and leaving them wet, because then there's more water to evaporate and you should end up with a cooler horse. If you scrape, you remove water, and therefore remove an opportunity for evaporation, which slows the cooling process down, no?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes! Unless it is too humid for the water to evaporate. But even then failing to scrape does not heat the horse up which I think is the basis of the 'your horse is at risk if you don't scrape....' stuff.

 

[Mule]

I only scrape if I want them to dry off quickly. The idea that they'd somehow get hotter if they were left wet always struck me as ridiculous.

 

[Goldenstar]

I always scrape then towel dry the legs and head I can’t bear horses dripping about the place .

 

[pixie]

I only scrape at the end because he's grey and tends to get filthier quicker if he is left wet

 

[SEL]

A few years ago I accompanied the vets at one of the major 3 day events on x-country day (watching only, special invite of a friend). It was a boiling hot day and a lot of the horses doing the x-c were struggling.

At the end of the course the grooms, vets and anyone else handy were literally throwing buckets of cold water over the horses. Some of the horses came off the course pretty distressed and I was told that to avoid heat stroke, neurological damage etc it was important just to get their temperature down and constant cold water was the best way to do that. There was no scraping!

I think both PC and the BHS can be slow to update. The 'must never feed your horse before riding' is my latest niggle (from a newly qual BHS). High starch? Absolutely. Hay or chaff - well that has been shown to minimise the damage from acid splash back and is therefore a Good Thing.