Todays session for those that are interested 27

Armas

Armas

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Todays session for those that are interested.


[video=youtube_share;EysQr_yBaIE]http://youtu.be/EysQr_yBaIE[/video]
 
What nasty hands from 10.35 - 10.40. I'm sorry, I think your horse is lovely, but I really dislike the rider. Whilst there is much improvement in lateral work, there is very little improvement to him being BTV all the time.

While I know every horse is different, I trained my old horse out of it in 2 weeks, and now the same for one of my clients horses that used to evade the bit.
 
I would have wanted a professional to have made more progress with the main issue within almost 30 hours. He is becoming stronger and stronger, but has made little 'progress' with his main issue. At this point I would be prepared to say, if he were mine, that I had given the trainer fair chance.

He looks like a sweetie as always :) he does make me laugh.
 
38 seconds in- he raises his head to a nice point where she could have maintained her contact and pushed him on with the leg but instead she went fiddle, yank, fiddle, and he curled back up again.
 
First time I have watched one of your videos so I'm not in the best position to judge however agree with the above poster, every time he makes a pleasing picture/outline he is punished by being wiggled and see sawed back btv and when he is curled up he is being encouraged to do so by being left alone. I don't understand it, I appreciate that there is a place for getting a horse to go like this in training ie. encouraging the flexibility of the neck and stretching through the back but in this vid it's done for prolonged periods of time and the horse doesn't change in its frame.
Would like to see how this horse goes with little or no contact.
 
Billie1007 said:
I would have wanted a professional to have made more progress with the main issue within almost 30 hours. He is becoming stronger and stronger, but has made little 'progress' with his main issue. At this point I would be prepared to say, if he were mine, that I had given the trainer fair chance.

He looks like a sweetie as always :) he does make me laugh.
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It depends on what you see as the main issue obviously you see the BTV as the main issue however the trainer sees the engagement as the main issue. The BTV issue will eventually stop when he learns no matter where he puts his head he will not be able to evade the contact.

JennyConnor said:
What nasty hands from 10.35 - 10.40. I'm sorry, I think your horse is lovely, but I really dislike the rider. Whilst there is much improvement in lateral work, there is very little improvement to him being BTV all the time.

While I know every horse is different, I trained my old horse out of it in 2 weeks, and now the same for one of my clients horses that used to evade the bit.
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So out of 30 mins you don't like 5 seconds ? As you said every horse is different.

kizmund said:
First time I have watched one of your videos so I'm not in the best position to judge however agree with the above poster, every time he makes a pleasing picture/outline he is punished by being wiggled and see sawed back btv and when he is curled up he is being encouraged to do so by being left alone. I don't understand it, I appreciate that there is a place for getting a horse to go like this in training ie. encouraging the flexibility of the neck and stretching through the back but in this vid it's done for prolonged periods of time and the horse doesn't change in its frame.
Would like to see how this horse goes with little or no contact.
Click to expand...

He is not being wiggled or sawed back btv he places him self btv thats a big difference. What would the point of training with little to no contact that defeats the object. He needs to learn to accept the bit and keep the contact.

I posted this yesterday. I think it explains her position rather well.

[video=youtube;cfwtRTuBAxY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfwtRTuBAxY[/video]
 
To be fair James, and I am trying to be, there is a visible amount of sawing/rowing in this vid. I can't see the aim of it, but that's just me and my novicey outlook.
 
I've watched every video with this trainer, and I don't think she is doing that much good tbh. But I am also not going to go into this simply because it seems to me that whatever anyone says to you, you always find an argument/explanation for, so it is just like talking to a brick wall. It's your horse, your trainer, and your life, and at the end of the day, you will do what you want to do. Good luck with him :)
PS. He is absolutely stunning :)
 
I do see improvement, his trot is becoming consistently regular, he is getting stronger and more active behind which will eventually enable him to carry himself in a better frame, the work on counter flexions early on helped to open him up as did the counter canter work although he did struggle at times in that which may be counter productive as he then tends to drop to regain his balance.
Overall a good session, he obviously feels well and rather cheeky with the spooks.
 
I do see improvement , in the positioning and flow of the lateral work and in his rhytmn the counter canter is hard for him but is what I would do .
He is still BTV he is a horse who is short in the neck in his conformation however I woulda love to see him beginning to experiment with opening the neck more
I know I commented on it before but the muscles in the middle of the neck especially on the near side look tight to me and if he where mine I would be seeking to get someone to help with that on the ground.
The difficulty here is the horse has to take more responsiblity for the contact and the rider spends a lot of time managing this issue ( and I do understand why she's feels the need to do what she does) however I would like to see her ride him with her hands in a pair and close together carried a little higher with her elbows very close to her sides this would give the horse a better chance to experiment within the contact himself .
It would also mean she could use the contact with the rien against the neck especially on the outside to help keep him into the contact ..
Not sure if I have expressed that well but it's the best I can come up with.
 
I just generally don't like her riding. I can see her frequently having a yank at his mouth. And even those 5 seconds I previously mentioned will be very detrimental to his training. He brings his head up slightly then there is a load of sawing and yanking at the bit.
 
Goldenstar said:
I do see improvement , in the positioning and flow of the lateral work and in his rhytmn the counter canter is hard for him but is what I would do .
He is still BTV he is a horse who is short in the neck in his conformation however I woulda love to see him beginning to experiment with opening the neck more
I know I commented on it before but the muscles in the middle of the neck especially on the near side look tight to me and if he where mine I would be seeking to get someone to help with that on the ground.
The difficulty here is the horse has to take more responsiblity for the contact and the rider spends a lot of time managing this issue ( and I do understand why she's feels the need to do what she does) however I would like to see her ride him with her hands in a pair and close together carried a little higher with her elbows very close to her sides this would give the horse a better chance to experiment within the contact himself .
It would also mean she could use the contact with the rien against the neck especially on the outside to help keep him into the contact ..
Not sure if I have expressed that well but it's the best I can come up with.
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I raised this point before, but the rider gave her reasons as to why not in one of the videos. Interestingly enough she does lift her hands and carry them around the 20/21/22 minute mark. I think (to my relatively inexperienced eyes) this does affect his frame and lifts the front end allowing him to start stepping through a bit more from behind, not consistently, but definitely more than he has been.
 
I have watched the majority of these videos and haven't commented yet, however this one I didn't like watching, her hands are very harsh and she was sitting back a lot and pretty much leaning on his mouth, sawing his reins and just being a fidgit with his mouth, when he has a slight second of being in front of the vertical (and tbh id prefer to see a bit of that with this horse) she jabbed and bought him back behind!
I like armas I really do, but all I see is a horse who is getting very bored of doing the same thing every week, I know he goes for the odd hack and has a day off, but its not the same. I miss seeing the Armas videos where he was enjoying himself jumping and having fun, sorry, but IMO ditch the trainer and give the guy a break.
 
I just watched the first 5 minutes and I cannot see that the rider's hands are harsh. You can clearly see her giving Armas rein slack to bring his head up - she does it repeatedly. It's clearly his evasion technique for now. Has the trainer ever done any bit work in-hand with Armas - and by that I mean 'lifting the bit via the reins' in hand almost at the poll - just behind the headband and walked him with the contact like that on both reins inhand? My trainer uses this method to help the horse understand what the bit should feel like ridden. All I know is that my horse had previously been hauled in at the front end and his 'neck bend' started somewhere halfway up his neck - he had no engagement beyond his poll from the bit to start with, but gradulally with the straightness stuff she has been doing you can see the reaction from the bit through the quarters now.

Training is a slow process and yes it can take weeks for results. Stick with your gut James, Armas will get there.
 
be positive said:
I do see improvement, his trot is becoming consistently regular, he is getting stronger and more active behind which will eventually enable him to carry himself in a better frame, the work on counter flexions early on helped to open him up as did the counter canter work although he did struggle at times in that which may be counter productive as he then tends to drop to regain his balance.
Overall a good session, he obviously feels well and rather cheeky with the spooks.
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^^ this. I thought this looked like a good productive session. All working up to the trot at the end which was IMO about the best working trot that he has done off the long reins.

Nice to see her ride on like that for a little longer than usual too - despite the spooking, he looked like he was finding his balance, beginning to let go of himself so much more and tentatively reaching forward-up to the contact. Quite often she gets to that point (after some collected work) and then rides half a side like that before stopping and letting him have a break - a bit more work like that will help to establish that way of going as the correct one I think.

There were just a few seconds where you could see where she was heading with the passagey steps - she half halted and he sprang up with a soft and forward impulse and then went on into working trot again... now it makes sense! :)

I rarely look at her hands or his head tbh when watching these videos tbh, it's an incidental thing but the overall shape, rhythm and looseness together with the engagement of the hind legs is more important to me. I do think she tends to have longer reins than perhaps we are used to seeing in the UK. It's not how I would aspire to ride because personally I can't get the right feel like that but that might well be my own deficiency :wink3:- interesting that Judy Harvey said on the commentary of the Euros dressage that the Brits sat more 'up' with shorter reins than many of the other riders. So I guess it's also what we are so used to seeing.

Have to mention the walk. Today there were moments that just looked lovely. Good open frame, into the rein, overtrack! Lots of good stuff. I think he's come a long way even just in his outlook & acceptance of the trainer and you'd be mad to swap and change at this point. Look forward to seeing tomorrow's session, I think that will be really interesting.
 
Goldenstar said:
The difficulty here is the horse has to take more responsiblity for the contact and the rider spends a lot of time managing this issue ( and I do understand why she's feels the need to do what she does)
Click to expand...

I think you are absolutely spot on with this and I have a nagging feeling that this is why he goes so much better on the long reins. When he is on the long reins he just has to deal with the contact that she gives him and she is very direct about keeping him moving forwards - no ifs, no buts, no maybes. Armas is such a busy and fussy horse that psychologically I think he really benefits from just being given a contact, told what to do and made to get on with it, and I think that this trainer gives him that on the long reins but not in the saddle.
 
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