Today's session lists of progress

Armas

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Another mostly positive day and still heading in a positive direction. The collected work is starting come together.
His shape is filling and muscling up nicely.

[video=youtube;46C0VoIiMfU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46C0VoIiMfU&sns=em[/video]
 

Buds_mum

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Personally think its repulsive. interesting to see the bay horse being ridden and going in a very similar way to armas, and to my mind he is still being put behind the vertical.
 

Armas

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The bay horse is not a regular at the yard and is not trained by my trainer. The bay horse is trained by the male Cade noire instructor.
Repulsive in what way ? In the fact the he is BTV by choice not by force.
 

Armas

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I agree with Adorable Alice in the fact that he looks very behind the rider. Whether the behind the vertical is forced or not it shows is he simply not capable of the work asked for him, and you feeling he is progression shows an inability to understand the correct way of going of a horse.

Welcome back to the forum new name same old style some things never change. If you can't see the progress and the improvements they I suggest it is you who have a lack of understanding.
 

Buds_mum

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I just don't think he's really improved and its sad that he is still carving a track round the arena with his head on his chest in the pursuit of what...?

We will agree to disagree James, he is after all your horse and I don't want to get on your bad side, it is purely my opinion.
 

snooples

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It was nice to see him playing around in the video yesterday, trotting and cantering around with his head nowhere near his chest!
 

Allover

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Have you paid any attention to the riders hands? I find the trot work is uncomfortable to watch. You seem to be blind to the fact she is pulling his nose is with almost every step he takes. She can't even let him go on a loose rein and drop his nose out - which to my eye he is begging the rider to let him do- when he is walking on a long rein. Going BTV is the riders choice not the horses.
 

Moomin1

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Mmm. I had a lesson today on my mare. She was hollowing out on the left rein and shoving her head in the air like a giraffe when I was asking her to work properly. I wonder if the posters above find this 'repulsive'?

She also then, with further exercises, made improvements. Not consistently, but they were there, little by little. So, does that mean that I shouldn't be pleased with our progress, or swap my instructor, because clearly the fact that she did actually evade at some points, means that the times she did make improvements mean nothing then?
 

Moomin1

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Have you paid any attention to the riders hands? I find the trot work is uncomfortable to watch. You seem to be blind to the fact she is pulling his nose is with almost every step he takes. She can't even let him go on a loose rein and drop his nose out - which to my eye he is begging the rider to let him do- when he is walking on a long rein. Going BTV is the riders choice not the horses.

That's where you are very wrong. Going btv is an evasion technique in some cases, just as poking the nose is with some horses.
 

Allover

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That's where you are very wrong. Going btv is an evasion technique in some cases, just as poking the nose is with some horses.

Some horses may go BTV but that does not mean the rider has to actively encourage it nor avoid dealing with the issue before advancing through his training.
 

Armas

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She is not actively encouraging him to go BTV, however she is maintaining the contact were ever he puts his head and that is the correct thing to do.
 

AdorableAlice

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Welcome back to the forum new name same old style some things never change. If you can't see the progress and the improvements they I suggest it is you who have a lack of understanding.

I meant no offence. The horse is over bent and compromised in his breathing with his gullet so compressed. That is what I see, may be I know nothing, that is of no consequence, it has been a while since my horse was at the nationals perhaps I have forgotten how a horse should go. Poll high, open gullet, up through the wither, free in the shoulders, swinging back.

It takes years to school a horse and for it all to come together is a great achievement. I hope your horse learns to open his frame and take a contact forwards, onlt then will he be able to learn correct collection.
 

snooples

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Agree with the above.
I dont know much about dressage and dont pretend to but surely if a horse cant even do a working trot correctly this should be fixed rather than advancing onto collection!!
 

Caol Ila

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I remain unconvinced that he's comfortable enough in his back end for the level of collection that is being asked. There is just no articulation of the joints in his hip, hock, and stifle, and he looks especially stiff behind in the walk breaks. At no point does he ever really bring his hocks underneath his body. Now maybe this is just the way he moves, which is fair enough, but if that is the case and he were my horse, I would say that dressage higher than (American) First Level (which is kind of like British Prelim, I think) isn't for him since, if you want to get to Second Level or above which is where you start asking for collected trot, shoulder-in, travers, etc., you want a horse who naturally has a wide range of motion and naturally flexes the joints in its hindleg. I had a horse who had a similar lack of range of motion and stiff movement behind -- just her natural quarter horse movement, but not helped by the beginnings of arthritis -- who I sold because she wasn't going to work out as a dressage horse. No amount of love nor money would get that horse to really bring her hocks underneath her and happily sit behind. She had a happy life teaching kids to jump and taking her new owner on trail rides, and I bought a dressage horse. Armas is eager to please in a way my QH never was, so he at least tries (whereas my QH would tell you exactly where to shove your collection), but he never looks comfortable.
 
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Allover

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She is not actively encouraging him to go BTV, however she is maintaining the contact were ever he puts his head and that is the correct thing to do.

Yes she is. There is no "contact" there to maintain.
 
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soulfull

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I'm really sorry. I posted once before that I thought I could see some improvement. But that has gone. You say she only maintains the contact but if you just watch her hands and nothing else you will see every so often as he tries to stretch his head out she takes a pull on the outside rein and he being a sensitive soul tucks his head back in.
However I have a feeling no matter how many of us same the same thing, you really don't want to hear it. I'm actually surprised you are still bothering to post videos
 

milliepops

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Have been watching all of the videos but not commented for a while. Without wanting to sound like a broken record I think you do have to see each session in the context of the rest of the week's work, as today's ridden session is not representative of the training as a whole.

Putting aside the BTV issue, for me what is of greater interest is the length of his neck overall. When he is going forward in a way that he is confident with, he is now reaching out into a longer frame. At *times* we are now seeing that poll-high, open & over the back feeling :)

Today looked like she challenged him a bit more with the lateral work in collected canter - this really does seem hard for him and the canter becomes a bit short and tight as he just doesn't have the balance or engagement yet. But on the plus side, he is keeping his rhythm, staying with her and really trying. She's sacrificed the contact a bit today to achieve that. It's swings & roundabouts though - he hasn't un-learned that reach, but it won't all come at once yet. I suppose it's just a case of what the rider feels the priority is each day.

Yesterday on the long reins he looked tighter when she asked him to flex to the inside more and the lateral canter work today just reminded me of that a bit. I wonder what he would be like if she really rode forwards when asking for the flexion. Think he might find it easier to deliver with an easier way of going, though appreciate the 'form' of the lateral work would possibly unravel a bit at this stage. The right hind is a bit of a question mark at the moment and I think it was predictable that the left to right changes were awkward :wink3:

FWIW i don't think she's *pulling* him BTV. I do think she's carrying her hands lower than she did at the start which makes them appear more fixed and she sometimes appears to miss an opportunity to let him just reach a few inches forward. I also think from her comments in the last few days that she's less worried about his frame at the moment and more about having his focussed attention and obedience. He looks reasonably relaxed. That and the fact that she does work him into a more truly forward-down-out contact on the long reins is reassuring to me :)


Today looked like the first time he's really been able to stay with her *mentally* with so many distractions outside. It would be nice to see if she can get the same level of concentration on one of his easy stretchy days and do that under saddle instead of long reins :)
 

Moomin1

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Have been watching all of the videos but not commented for a while. Without wanting to sound like a broken record I think you do have to see each session in the context of the rest of the week's work, as today's ridden session is not representative of the training as a whole.

Putting aside the BTV issue, for me what is of greater interest is the length of his neck overall. When he is going forward in a way that he is confident with, he is now reaching out into a longer frame. At *times* we are now seeing that poll-high, open & over the back feeling :)

Today looked like she challenged him a bit more with the lateral work in collected canter - this really does seem hard for him and the canter becomes a bit short and tight as he just doesn't have the balance or engagement yet. But on the plus side, he is keeping his rhythm, staying with her and really trying. She's sacrificed the contact a bit today to achieve that. It's swings & roundabouts though - he hasn't un-learned that reach, but it won't all come at once yet. I suppose it's just a case of what the rider feels the priority is each day.

Yesterday on the long reins he looked tighter when she asked him to flex to the inside more and the lateral canter work today just reminded me of that a bit. I wonder what he would be like if she really rode forwards when asking for the flexion. Think he might find it easier to deliver with an easier way of going, though appreciate the 'form' of the lateral work would possibly unravel a bit at this stage. The right hind is a bit of a question mark at the moment and I think it was predictable that the left to right changes were awkward :wink3:

FWIW i don't think she's *pulling* him BTV. I do think she's carrying her hands lower than she did at the start which makes them appear more fixed and she sometimes appears to miss an opportunity to let him just reach a few inches forward. I also think from her comments in the last few days that she's less worried about his frame at the moment and more about having his focussed attention and obedience. He looks reasonably relaxed. That and the fact that she does work him into a more truly forward-down-out contact on the long reins is reassuring to me :)


Today looked like the first time he's really been able to stay with her *mentally* with so many distractions outside. It would be nice to see if she can get the same level of concentration on one of his easy stretchy days and do that under saddle instead of long reins :)

Oh MP, thank god for this post. I just couldn't be bothered to type the same, as I am too busy enjoying my wine and shattered after my lesson today!! ;-)
 

nikicb

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I haven't responded to these threads before, but have watched quite a few of the videos. The one thing that has struck me from the beginning is how low the rider carries her hands. I have a youngish horse (6) and whilst he is not built like Armas (he is the same colour! ;) ), nor is he the same temperament, he does go on the forehand and can tuck btv when he is not wanting to work. I did spend some time riding quite defensively and my hands were somewhat buried. With confidence, and lots more lessons, I am able to carry my hands now, and the transformation has been amazing. He is no longer fixed and tucked in, but up through his shoulders and tall and proud. Armas (person!) - is this something worth discussing with the rider?
 

milliepops

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Oh MP, thank god for this post. I just couldn't be bothered to type the same, as I am too busy enjoying my wine and shattered after my lesson today!! ;-)

:lol: Fair enough! Red or white? :)

For me I just think you have to see the thing as a whole. There are plenty of things I might have done differently with this horse but there's no way of knowing if it would have had a better or worse result, so... Not much point speculating :p

She's not 'perfect', but I don't think she's *bad* either (& I think she's fantastic with the long reins! I'm incredibly inspired in that respect) and it's her comments that make it for me - like when she said today that he was beginning to pull into her hands in the lengthened trot . It's not a proper extension yet, but he has to learn to pull first. Just one tiny example of where i think she's looking for the right feel from the horse.
 

Moomin1

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:lol: Fair enough! Red or white? :)

For me I just think you have to see the thing as a whole. There are plenty of things I might have done differently with this horse but there's no way of knowing if it would have had a better or worse result, so... Not much point speculating :p

She's not 'perfect', but I don't think she's *bad* either (& I think she's fantastic with the long reins! I'm incredibly inspired in that respect) and it's her comments that make it for me - like when she said today that he was beginning to pull into her hands in the lengthened trot . It's not a proper extension yet, but he has to learn to pull first. Just one tiny example of where i think she's looking for the right feel from the horse.

Very very rarely say this on this forum, but 100% with you.

BTW - Red, and it's going down VERY nicely!
 

Mongoose11

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Very very rarely say this on this forum, but 100% with you

Isn't this a little bit like being awarded an MBE?

Mooms, I do hope you don't mind, you do make me laugh. Your acid tongue is sharp enough to cut through mine and for that I say thank you. :)
 
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