Todays session number 11

Armas

Armas

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As promised here is todays session for those of you that are interested in the updates. Progressively improving imho a lot less time BTV. The trainers comments are at the end.
If you wish to make negative comments, I would ask that you watch the video in its entirety rather than just a snippet then comment.
For those that have never seen any of the training videos and the ups and downs have a look at our first video to be able to see the progress we are making.

Have a look at the clouds at 6.40 totally amazing there was also thunder and lightening in the background he was never distracted.
[video=youtube_share;nDKPVle522M]http://youtu.be/nDKPVle522M[/video]
 
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Very happy to see this James. He's looking much more relaxed and the rest will come from that. Very happy to see the extra transitions. His BTV is far less severe and he is spending more time out of that, only ducking far behind on very odd occasions.

Going very much in the right direction.
 
I have been keeping an eye on Armas' training videos for a while with interest but without commenting. However, as practically the whole time he is evading the bit by overbending and you can generally see that your trainer is not hanging on to the reins and is actually trying to get him to stretch his nose out, I was wondering if you had considered changing his bit. It looks like he is in a loose ring nathe/happy mouth bit but obviously I can't see if it is a straight bar or, if it is jointed, what type of joint it has. So, for example, if he is currently in a single jointed bit then it may be worth trying a french link or a roller joint one to see if he prefers that. The other thing is possibly he just doesn't like having the flash noseband - have you tried him without it? I may, of course, be suggesting things that you have already tried and if that is the case then I apologise. He is a lovely horse and I wish you every success with him.
 
SallyBatty said:
I have been keeping an eye on Armas' training videos for a while with interest but without commenting. However, as practically the whole time he is evading the bit by overbending and you can generally see that your trainer is not hanging on to the reins and is actually trying to get him to stretch his nose out, I was wondering if you had considered changing his bit. It looks like he is in a loose ring nathe/happy mouth bit but obviously I can't see if it is a straight bar or, if it is jointed, what type of joint it has. So, for example, if he is currently in a single jointed bit then it may be worth trying a french link or a roller joint one to see if he prefers that. The other thing is possibly he just doesn't like having the flash noseband - have you tried him without it? I may, of course, be suggesting things that you have already tried and if that is the case then I apologise. He is a lovely horse and I wish you every success with him.
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Its a different bit to what I have used in the past. It was recommended by the trainer as its a lots softer in his mouth. I think it is a Beris Mullen Eggbutt Snaffle (single bar not metal )
I have worked him with and with out the flash. This trainer and brown boots prefer using the flash.
 
I think he looks a lot less stressed by the trainer. So this is good. But, if by "imho a lot less time BTV," you mean he is BTV nearly the entire session, then yes, yes he is. At times it looks like he is bracing against the flash. I don't particularly like them. While they do indeed help some people and horses, I think in many cases they can hide a lot of contact issues. If the horse can't open its mouth, it's not so obvious that it's unhappy with the contact. But the flash can't force the horse to accept the contact, either, and it looks to me like he's not really accepting it here.
 
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Caol Ila said:
I think he looks a lot less stressed by the trainer. So this is good. But, if by "imho a lot less time BTV," you mean he is BTV nearly the entire session, then yes, yes he is. At times it looks like he is bracing against the flash. I don't particularly like them. While they do indeed help some people and horses, I think in many cases they can hide a lot of contact issues. If the horse can't open its mouth, it's not so obvious that it's unhappy with the contact. But the flash can't force the horse to accept the contact, either, and it looks to me like he's not really accepting it here.
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I wouldn't have a flash on him either. It is amazing how many horses go better without them if you give them a chance. To me it looks like the majority of time is BTV, but is less severe, so moving in the right direction. TBH, I am happy that the emphasis in this session seems to be more on relaxation :)
 
I see improvements, less pressure and tension from the trainer, he gets a few moments in leg yield where he starts to step under and come up in front but I do not see her using those moments constructively and making more of them, timing again.
He is BTV throughout the session with just fleeting times where he starts to go towards the contact but he is not so fixed and is it not so extreme as in the early days, I would like to see far more lateral movement, or just more variety in the movements in general, that is when he goes best and is not used to it's advantage, it seems to help with the connection and he finds it fairly easy which gives him confidence, confidence is something he needs to gain more of, when he looks as if he really gets what is required he starts to look special and not just like one of many trotting round submissively.
Definitely going in the right direction.
 
be positive said:
I see improvements, less pressure and tension from the trainer, he gets a few moments in leg yield where he starts to step under and come up in front but I do not see her using those moments constructively and making more of them, timing again.
He is BTV throughout the session with just fleeting times where he starts to go towards the contact but he is not so fixed and is it not so extreme as in the early days, I would like to see far more lateral movement, or just more variety in the movements in general, that is when he goes best and is not used to it's advantage, it seems to help with the connection and he finds it fairly easy which gives him confidence, confidence is something he needs to gain more of, when he looks as if he really gets what is required he starts to look special and not just like one of many trotting round submissively.
Definitely going in the right direction.
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Nail on head with the confidence comments :)
 
I agree, he looks much more relaxed with a better rhythm! I agree he is still btv a lot, but he is putting himself there and is happy working there so will take time to fix. All in all I think its improving.
 
Looking better he's a very tricky boy obviously so I do hope it continues improving.

I'm by no means and expert and nearly everyone on here has far more experience than me but if I was you I would be tempted to play around with bits. Louie likes to tuck btv and I've been playing around with bits for a long time and have finally found a combination that works for him. I don't know how long it will last as he seems to 'outgrow' his bits often. I have however found he is much better when I do not have a flash/ a drop on. When I do put them on he pretty much does rolkur and refuses to play ball so I no longer use them.
 
For what it's worth (and against my better judgement as I don't fancy the bun fight these threads sometimes become) Armas is not BTV, he is on the forehand. He is loading his front end and appears heavy on the hand. BTV horses hold themselves with an upright and tight neck and tend to have floppy reins as there is no contact there. Armas doesn't appear to have too light a connection to the bit, but rather too heavy a one.

For a horse that was previously BTV becoming on the forehand is sometimes the next step, however it does need to be addressed.
 
Booboos said:
For what it's worth (and against my better judgement as I don't fancy the bun fight these threads sometimes become) Armas is not BTV, he is on the forehand. He is loading his front end and appears heavy on the hand. BTV horses hold themselves with an upright and tight neck and tend to have floppy reins as there is no contact there. Armas doesn't appear to have too light a connection to the bit, but rather too heavy a one.

For a horse that was previously BTV becoming on the forehand is sometimes the next step, however it does need to be addressed.
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No bun fights today please......Just open interesting discussion. :p
 
Booboos said:
For what it's worth (and against my better judgement as I don't fancy the bun fight these threads sometimes become) Armas is not BTV, he is on the forehand. He is loading his front end and appears heavy on the hand. BTV horses hold themselves with an upright and tight neck and tend to have floppy reins as there is no contact there. Armas doesn't appear to have too light a connection to the bit, but rather too heavy a one.

For a horse that was previously BTV becoming on the forehand is sometimes the next step, however it does need to be addressed.
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I actually agree, you explained that well!
 
What happens when you lift your hands up on this horse and give him a pony club kick?

Cos he's not really moving forward and up ever he's burying himself...
 
I usually leave these threads to the professionals! Yet I have been watching/reading them all with interest and even I, who's rubbish at anything like this can notice a difference and personally I think there is a big improvement. He looks so much more relaxed, like he is understanding what is being asked of him and not as rushed :)
 
I am glad that the consensus thus far is that he is looking more relaxed. Booboos interesting view on him being on the forehand I think some one has mentioned this in the past. I am trying to find some good examples on you tube to look at.
 
Agree he is more relaxed.

For experimental purposes only I would be very tempted to give this horse a few sessions bitless, with a scawbrig or a Dr Cooks. I *think* he would come up off his forehand, free up his shoulder and be more generous with his movement... also he would have no bit to lean on or go btv for.

Obviously as the rules currently stand he could not compete bitless but I really would be interested to see how it affects his movement and general attitude.
 
Booboos said:
For a horse that was previously BTV becoming on the forehand is sometimes the next step, however it does need to be addressed.
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Yes, for me ^^ this was my feeling too. I thought he looked better when ridden more forward but totally understand her comments today. It must feel like big progress to go from a tight no-contact horse to one that's now taking the rein though. And it's so common for one problem to morph into another while you're addressing it.

One thing that occurred to me was on the long reins she really rewards forward work where he looks in balance and becoming engaged. Under saddle it just looks like the handbrake is on a bit. I don't know if that's because she's happy to have him underpowered but listening and chilled for now, or a hangover from being asked to work him more slowly/'collected' (;)) after the first day. J, what would you think?
 
milliepops said:
Yes, for me ^^ this was my feeling too. I thought he looked better when ridden more forward but totally understand her comments today. It must feel like big progress to go from a tight no-contact horse to one that's now taking the rein though. And it's so common for one problem to morph into another while you're addressing it.

One thing that occurred to me was on the long reins she really rewards forward work where he looks in balance and becoming engaged. Under saddle it just looks like the handbrake is on a bit. I don't know if that's because she's happy to have him underpowered but listening and chilled for now, or a hangover from being asked to work him more slowly/'collected' (;)) after the first day. J, what would you think?
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She wants him to be more relaxed at the moment and starting to stretch more. He is starting to take the bit a lot more he just now needs to maintain that.
Lets see how tomorrow goes ! Over all I was very pleased today :cool:
 
Fair enough ;) was just curious as it looked more secure on the long reins, but of course they can be so different under saddle.
She seems really pleased with him too :)
 
On the forehand issue is something that can be sorted out with strength and balance training. It is secondary IMO to getting him more relaxed and accepting of the contact which is where I see improvement in this video.

I still wouldn't do it the same way....but she is getting more of a willing partnership out of him now.
 
_GG_ said:
On the forehand issue is something that can be sorted out with strength and balance training. It is secondary IMO to getting him more relaxed and accepting of the contact which is where I see improvement in this video.
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I don't disagree. It's a chicken and egg thing sometimes :) Just appeared in other videos that as he stepped under himself more when allowed forward, he also reached for the contact at the same time... and it was quite a contrast to yesterday on the long reins so thought I'd ask the question ;)
 
milliepops said:
I don't disagree. It's a chicken and egg thing sometimes :) Just appeared in other videos that as he stepped under himself more when allowed forward, he also reached for the contact at the same time... and it was quite a contrast to yesterday on the long reins so thought I'd ask the question ;)
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I absolutely agree with the observation. BTV, on the forehand, rushing etc. are all symptoms. Personally, I would go straight to the root, the cause and work on that. That way, you don't get additional issues rearing their heads when you make progress with one.

That said, he is not looking unhappy with what she is doing, so no need to dislike it as such. She's making progress. :)
 
Ill ask her today about trying a session without the nose band.She mentioned yesterday that she is going to add in more leg yields and lateral work.
 
In my limited experience all horses have weaknesses which need to be corrected and strengths which need to be built on. On the whole horses are either on the forehand (much more frequent) or BTV (rarer but still present). Either is compounded by a horse that is behind the leg (BTV and behind the leg is a particularly difficult combination).

How the two types of horses should be ridden differs:

On the forehand horses benefit from a lot of transitions, min-give-and-retakes of the rein all the time, and changes of tempo within the paces.

BTV horses benefit from getting them to bend around the inside leg, circles and leg yielding.

A horse that swaps between these different kinds of weaknesses needs a rider who is very quick to react and who immediately corrects the new evasion on the right way.
 
I've only watched the first two vids and this one.
I would agree that he is more accepting of what is being asked but I'm not convinced that he is being asked the right thing.
 
Booboos said:
A horse that swaps between these different kinds of weaknesses needs a rider who is very quick to react and who immediately corrects the new evasion on the right way.
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Or a rider who tries to get to the root of the problem.

My gut instinct from watching this horse is that the root of the issues stem from an anxiety of the aids. A common reason for a horse to end up evading by going BTV is that they are ridden with force. Ridden with a very strong hand and pushed forward with the leg/whip/spurs to keep them going.

Like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

You end up with horses that fear the leg and hand...they are expecting to be pushed and pulled between the two and this is where I personally try not to teach to get the horse between the leg and hand. Seat and contact yes, but not leg and hand as it is too simplified a term and too easily mistaken for just pushing forward and pulling back until something happens.

From what I see of Armas, he would benefit from learning to accept the leg more, not be quite so hurried in his reaction to it and see it as asking a question not giving a demand. Through that work, the contact would benefit from being kept light at all times....even if he overreacted to the leg, doing everything possible to simplify it for him and let him learn that his acceptance of one does will not mean force with the other.

Gosh, this is difficult to explain, but it is just what I see and what I would do if it were me riding him.

As far as the leg yielding goes....he's naturally talented at moving laterally, but I posted on another thread yesterday about an exercise to keep a horse with a busy mind occupied and I think it would work well for Armas to stop him just using the leg yield as a way to rush through the work.

It is based around getting a few strides straight, a few in yield, two straight, two yield, one straight, three yield and mixing it up to a/ keep him focussed and listening to what will come next which, as a byproduct brings a horse off the forehand and b/ prevents the horse from just flattening out and rushing through a movement.

I'd also like to see leg yielding out of a circle which will help build up that right hind and his overall back strength.

But...as said before, I am happy with where she is going as Armas is happier, so I'm looking forward to seeing the progress.
 
getting there...................there are glimpses where he really does use the hind leg and offer more cadence, and the canter is on the brink of being very smart.

i dont think its going to be plain sailing at all, but each session shows small steps forward and that i think is all any of us can expect, miracle changes are for fiction books!
 
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