Too thin horse - blood test?

[ILuvCowparsely]

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OK, so hoping this thread is now only being followed by people who are reading what I'm actually writing instead of making up their own version.

He's been on vitamin E at 5000iu for 5 days. He's been ridden twice in that time. If he looks as bonny tomorrow as he does today then I will be reducing the food a bit, otherwise his weight gain will be too fast for safety.

I'm hoping this isn't just some temporary blip, and also that I'm not imagining things. It's great that the weather has gone so cold, because otherwise things might get confused with warmer weather and even potential grass growth. There's still going to be a bit of a question, because I can't ride in this weather. And it worries me a lot that I can see a connection between his work and weight loss, but if he has a mild vitamin E dependant muscle myopathy, then I guess that would be reasonable. And given his spots, not unlikely. There are absolutely no signs of one, though.

It's interesting to read how many people are having to give more food than usual this year, I wonder whats going on?
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I hope you get it sorted ycbm and your horse starts putting on weight.

 

[rextherobber]

Am I alone in having a vet who says testing for vit e levels is "difficult ", and suggested a Bute trial instead?!
ycbm - thanks for recommending Aloe Vera juice, has completely fixed the issue I was having with my mare. Could Ludo have Sainfoin pellets? Doesn't address the weight loss issue, I know, but you have a plan for that anyway. Hope he continues to improve.

 

[ycbm]

I don't know sanfoin I'll just look it up.

From what I've read, blood vitamin E levels do not tell you whether that vitamin E is able to be absorbed by the muscles. A horse's muscles can need more vitamin E without showing any deficiency on a blood test. Your vet is right.

In my view, the best way to test for a need for more vitamin E is to feed vitamin E and see what happens. That's what we are doing. It wasn't first on my list because it wasn't the most obvious thing to test as fat loss is not a symptom. Also I wanted to do one thing at a time so we knew what was causing what.

The reason I don't routinely feed vitamin E is that my horses have masses of fresh grass available and it's very expensive stuff if they don't need it.

I'm chuffed about the aloe!


PS for people asking about selenium, I've previously supplemented RDA of selenium with other horses but it came back on a blood test as too high so I stopped. It's very dangerous stuff to over dose.

 

[paddy555]

Am I alone in having a vet who says testing for vit e levels is "difficult ", and suggested a Bute trial instead?!

well many of the authorities, valberg, UC davis seem to suggest testing although I do understand the point in para 2 of ycbm's post above.
What I am at a loss to understand is if a horse has a vit E deficiency and that, with all it's implications, is what you are trying to establish how does giving bute help. Does it increase the vit e levels?

 

[PapaverFollis]

The vet will have been trying to establish the cause of the symptoms rather than if there was a vitamin E deficiency or not. So a bute trail rules out pain as a cause before venturing down the more difficult vitamin E testing path.

 

[rextherobber]

well many of the authorities, valberg, UC davis seem to suggest testing although I do understand the point in para 2 of ycbm's post above.
What I am at a loss to understand is if a horse has a vit E deficiency and that, with all it's implications, is what you are trying to establish how does giving bute help. Does it increase the vit e levels?

No, I don't think so, I suggested testing as had been reading about pssm, (which vet seemed a bit in the dark about).I think suggesting a Bute trial is the go to for our practice, for loss of performance/not quite rightness . That or, "Work her till she breaks properly, give me something to work on." !

 

[paddy555]

The reason I don't routinely feed vitamin E is that my horses have masses of fresh grass available and it's very expensive stuff if they don't need it.

I can see where you are coming from.

I supplement vit E as, even though they have fresh grass there is a much diminished vit E value in that in winter plus of course the vit E in harvested forages degrades once cut and ours are in at night on hay in winter.

I can see unridden horses can probably cope with these seasonal fluctuations as feral ones clearly can do. However ours are ridden daily all through winter so I see a greater requirement.

I agree vit E is expensive stuff but I am not sure that supplementing low levels continually is going to be a lot more expensive that not doing so, suspecting a problem and then having to give higher doses to try and ascertain the problem. If that turns out to be the problem then of course you are left supplementing.

Many years ago I damaged and ultimately lost one of my best horses by failing to supplement. Of course I had no idea at the time. That was a very expensive mistake. Now the expensive of supplementing is just a normal cost of horse keeping for me.

People post endlessly about the problems of their potentially PSSM horses. I guess some of those have little more than vit E deficiency. The cost of generally supplementing is far less than the cost of vet fees, blood tests etc etc let alone the emotional cost of not knowing where the problem lies.

 

[tristar]

OK, so hoping this thread is now only being followed by people who are reading what I'm actually writing instead of making up their own version.

He's been on vitamin E at 5000iu for 5 days. He's been ridden twice in that time. If he looks as bonny tomorrow as he does today then I will be reducing the food a bit, otherwise his weight gain will be too fast for safety.

I'm hoping this isn't just some temporary blip, and also that I'm not imagining things. It's great that the weather has gone so cold, because otherwise things might get confused with warmer weather and even potential grass growth. There's still going to be a bit of a question, because I can't ride in this weather. And it worries me a lot that I can see a connection between his work and weight loss, but if he has a mild vitamin E dependant muscle myopathy, then I guess that would be reasonable. And given his spots, not unlikely. There are absolutely no signs of one, though.

It's interesting to read how many people are having to give more food than usual this year, I wonder whats going on?
.

well 2 of ours have normally 100 grm light nz rug, this year to my surprise they both have the usual nz plus a thick ,rug liner and i thought i might find them sweating at some point, not yet, as for feed it goes up and down according to how explosive they appear, last autumn was very odd, almost stopped feeding all together, all are slim ish, fit and look well

but i do think its an odd winter somehow

 

[ycbm]

I was going to wait until tomorrow and make sure before I posted this but I'm now sure Ludo has come in tonight fatter than he went out this morning and it's been snowing all day and I didn't leave out any extra food, they had to dig for grass.

This is interesting. I've been very happy with his muscle tone but I have to admit that his back is incredibly spongy to massage after 6 days of 5000iu (10000iu Equimins oil) vitamin E. I think at the very least he was vitamin E deficient, and possibly that he has a vitamin E myopathy that would be common with his breeding. My cob used to be vitamin E dependant, but didn't seem to be full PSSM either, so I'm happy to manage that, it's easy.

There's a years supply coming in the post (not Equimins!!) , I'll be cutting his food down by 500g a day very soon, and we'll see how we go on.

 

[ycbm]

Well, there you go. Still putting on weight with food reduced by a kilo. And this morning went back to what was, until this December, completely normal behaviour for him, to leave half his breakfast and wait until the night to eat it.

Seems he was vitamin E deficient. I'll obviously have him on it every winter now, but do a bit of testing over the summer to see if it's a winter only thing.

 

[splashgirl45]

thats really good news ....

 

[Tarragon]

Wonderful to get an answer!

 

[MissTyc]

Just caught the update - really interesting to follow the whole thread. So glad it's just that. Think we're learning a lot about Vitamin E and its availability in a "normal" diet compared to requirements for many horses.

 

[ycbm]

Given his genes i would have tested it first, not his blood, but vitamin E deficiency didn't, in my reading about it, have fat loss recorded as a symptom.

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[ycbm]

He's now piling on weight. Tomorrow, about 6 weeks from starting the thread, he will be on 2kg a day 40% less hard food than he was at the start.
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[CanteringCarrot]

I commented before about my gelding being more difficult to maintain this winter. He already gets Vit E but I bumped it up slightly and he's put on weight. Over the last week he actually is too fat now so I'm lowering his feed. Idk if it was the Vit E or the warmer temperatures. Although he's adequately blanketed in the cold so ?‍ mystery.

Glad to hear you've got yours sorted out.